Yuzuru Hanyu, Greatest Or Not The Greatest?

TontoK said:

Fun Fact: In addition to three North American titles, Dick Button was also European Champion in 1948. That was the last year that North Americans were allowed to compete at Euros.

While there are many criteria one could use in measuring the GOAT, Two Time OGMs have to be in the conversation. That would include both Yuzu and Button.

I lean towards Button because he spearheaded the technical leap that led to the exciting men's competitions we see today. He truly changed the sport forever.

And, to be honest, I've never quite been a full bore Yuzu fan. His style just doesn't suit me. Personal preference - no shade.

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He also invented the Button camel!

SarahSynchro said:

I also feel the need to point out that whenever I see GOAT used as an acronym, this is what I immediately think of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aLYvZ5sX28

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My mind goes a different direction...the lonely goatherd https://youtu.be/UmmOJx_Hxto

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MsLayback said:

Thank you Tontok!! Agree with u on so many fronts...Dick Button exemplifies the sport of figure skating and has a body of work, a legacy and commitment to the sport that no one will ever surpass that is what makes him the greatest of all time

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And legendary commentary that grew the sport and educated many.

labgoat said:

My mind goes a different direction...the lonely goatherd https://youtu.be/UmmOJx_Hxto

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They should have the Polka for the rhythm dance next year and make everyone skate to that! :yes:

Mathman said:

They should have the Polka for the rhythm dance next year and make everyone skate to that! :yes:

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The Duchesnays did just that for 1992 OG OD Polka, complete with Christopher Dean choreography!

https://youtu.be/Ar8AclSXsLA

Yuzuru's enormous stature is, I think, more complicated than maybe any other skater in history, even Yuna: not only is there the sheer difficulty of deciding on a basis of {cough} "purely skating" excellence who is and is not greatest - of generation, of IJS period, of century, of all time.

But also there's the job of disentangling that from everything else that surrounds his extraordinary star quality: the size and intensity of his fan base (yep, Yuna has that and - in Korea - probably even stronger, but less complex in nature), the faceted nature of his appeal both in Japan and overseas, his mystique and symbolic nature (and the risk the latter does hold of dehumanising him even to fans, again Yuna comes to mind)... and even the backlash he does get from some quarters because of all the non-strictly-skating aspects of his star status.

Now try and untangle that from his creativity on ice, the sheer technical quality of his skating, the depth and passion he aims for and inspires, his uncompromising refusal to sacrifice excellence in... well, everything, and the respect and awe he is held in by his peers and predecessors. And his medal tally. And his world records. And his firsts. And his gorgeous best (or tear-jerking bravest) performances, all available in multiple high quality videos to anyone all over the world (something Button, Curry and Cranston can't have, to be fair. If they could, oh dear lord if we had a time machine and they could...)

Some (like me, yes ) believe him to be a GOAT and the GOAT. Others don't, but he's definitely and will probably always be one of the first names that come up in any discussion of it... but for sure one day, Yuzuru's place in sports history will make a fascinating PhD dissertation or ten

PS - a post on the Alina-for-greatest thread reminded me of a couple of videos, and I thought I'd post a link to this one, the Top 10 Most Successful Male Figure Skaters in the IJS Era (2005-2018). The video only counts Olympics and Worlds, but on a tweet she adds in Europeans/4CC/GPF

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AieNS2bdwfk
The extra list: https://twitter.com/heeCHIKHA/status/1018264607574642689

Now as it was 10 months ago, obviously Chen will have moved into it now, plus Yuzu and Javi added another medal (silver Worlds, European gold). Also, some skaters like Plushenko straddled the two eras (I think, it's early here!), so his place on this list is lower than a career profile would warrant. But I thought folk would find it interesting...

Henni147 said:

whole post

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you are right... but again... the popularity among fans doesn't make an athlete the greatest either.... but you as I said, the fact that I do not get him doesn't mean anything... i think i posted more to make this point : ok guys, to many of you, yuzu is more than just a citrus fruit he is the GOAT... but please do acknowledge that for many others, he is not. I dislike those threads to be honest. They are not really useful : if i dared detailing why i dislike his skating, I would get a herd of GOAT fans attacking my opinion... we all have different tastes... even as an unconditional fan of Patrick Chan, I have a hard time saying he is the greatest..... I actually would go Kurt Browning... or perhaps Yagudin... i think Lambiel could be made as a case as he had wonderful spins and steps, choreo, interpretation, a quad... but well of course his 3a wasn't steady... so it prevented him from achieving more... but all the skaters I have mentioned, and some other Japanese skaters like Dai, have more appeal to me because they give me everything, including depth, power, strength, conviction, emotion.....

and finally, greatest of all time has a variable that is HUGE : time.... kids born in 2000 and after : i mean.. that' s Yuzu's time... fine and soon to be Nathan's or pehaps Stephen's time.... but i am older than that.. and to me, I would consider Kurt... but then... older people will speak Curry.

to each its own.... etc etc... as always

Well to be fair, this thread started with the claim (maybe just a tad trollish?) that Yuzuru couldn't be GOAT simply because he's never won 4CC, so you can hardly blame us for a spirited defence against that There's no law against not seeing what others do even if (like me and quite a few music legends past and present) it sometimes seems most of the world sees it....

My mum's family had a saying about who you fall in love with and why, "the moon got in my mind's eye."

4everchan said:

...have more appeal to me because they give me everything, including depth, power, strength, conviction, emotion.....

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All of which, we surely agree, a huge number of people do get from Yuzu. It'd be a dull old sport if everyone liked/admired/championed the same things.

IMO Yuzuru Hanyu is the GOAT up until now, and that’s not because only about 2 OGM but about what he is doing right now is the most difficult technically which current rules still didn’t give enough credit for how hard it really is,for example the difficult back counter 3A which no one can do it perfectly until now except him,and his lots of difficult transitions before the jump ( I remember Charlie white said he didn’t know how can Yuzuru do that entry before jump, its against the momentum),for spin entry without changing a foot(again no momentum helping), quad lutz with zero pre rotation, the out of no where jump( jump without long prep)etc. why it’s so difficult to put transition before jumping especially quad?because to jump the skater need momentum going in to jump and when u put transition it basically cut some momentum.Imagine yourself trying to jump as far as u can so u have to run before jumping to gain the momentum but then something distract u left and right before u jump

If u compare Dick Button and Yuzuru Hanyu, it’s like compare a car of 50 years ago and the current car ( or maybe future car). The technology of 50 years ago is of course can’t be compare with current technology but without technology of previous car, there is no current car.But u can’t say that technology of old car is better than new car. Quad is of course difficult than triple but if no triple invention, there is no quad .Dick Button create many things but also Yuzuru did, and that’s why Button also admire Yuzuru for not stopping new things just because it didn’t gain much point in current rules despite how hard it actually is

And for Artistry,some people may not like his artistry which is ok,people can like orange or apple. But if we talking in generally he is the most sellable globally skater in history and that also effect in crazy high price tickets in this year,, guy is this the most expensive ticket across all the sport?

4everchan said:

you are right... but again... the popularity among fans doesn't make an athlete the greatest either...

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But your reservations were about his abilty to move people. His popularity shows how many are moved. And his ability to move people is only one of the reasons to call him the greatest.

ankifeather said:

Ok I won't go as far as to say any sport, when the OC channel don't include the mass popular sports like soccer, tennis, basketball.

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Aye, that's why I said "individual" athlete. Soccer and basketball are team sports and that's a different cup of tea, because teams don't have a limited time to stay competitive. The players might change from season to season, but the club or national team doesn't disappear from the competitive stage and can be followed for decades and centuries.

In Tennis superstars like Federer, Nadal, Djoker and co. have a much higher name recognition worldwide and probably lot more fans than Hanyu, too. However, I'm not sure, if they are as dedicated and especially not as well organized. In Hanyu's fandom people lurk for every single news snippet, translate every interview or video footage into English, Chinese and countless other languages, share thousands of fancams, live reports, fanarts and organize streaming parties for fans, who don't have any other access to his competitions or broadcast appearances. It's an insane network that grew over the last decade. I've never experienced that before in any sport and I follow pretty much everything from athletics to teamsports, from archery to ski jumping, from swimming to Snooker.

My personal understanding of the term "G.O.A.T." in sports context is the following:

1. Master (dominant in present)
Master a sport in all technical and artistic aspects (every sport is body art and entertainment as well) and dominate an era with major titles, records, firsts, consistency, continuous (technical) growth and longevity.

2. Ambassador (engraved in history)
Move a mass of people all over the world independent from gender, age or nationality and create magic moments that will be remembered, rewatched, discussed and celebrated forever.

3. Hero (inspiring the future)
Inspire new young talents to dive into a sport and become the champions of tomorrow. A sport always needs heroes whom children can look up to, both as athletes and characters.

Hanyu excels in all three aspects. It's hard to compare skaters of different eras with different rules and focus, level of difficulty and depth of the competitive field. So it's hard to talk about the greatest of ALL time, but in HIS time I can't recall any other male skater, who hits these three aspects better overall.

Rissa said:

But your reservations were about his abilty to move people. His popularity shows how many are moved. And his ability to move people is only one of the reasons to call him the greatest.

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false... i said : he doesn't move me...i didn't talk about the fact he has his own planet

Henni147 said:

Aye, that's why I said "individual" athlete. Soccer and basketball are team sports and that's a different cup of tea, because teams don't have a limited time to stay competitive. The players might change from season to season, but the club or national team doesn't disappear from the competitive stage and can be followed for decades and centuries.

In Tennis superstars like Federer, Nadal, Djoker and co. have a much higher name recognition worldwide and probably lot more fans than Hanyu, too. However, I'm not sure, if they are as dedicated and especially not as well organized. In Hanyu's fandom people lurk for every single news snippet, translate every interview or video footage into English, Chinese and countless other languages, share thousands of fancams, live reports, fanarts and organize streaming parties for fans, who don't have any other access to his competitions or broadcast appearances. It's an insane network that grew over the last decade. I've never experienced that before in any sport and I follow pretty much everything from athletics to teamsports, from archery to ski jumping, from swimming to Snooker.

My personal understanding of the term "G.O.A.T." in sports context is the following:

1. Master (dominant in present)
Master a sport in all technical and artistic aspects (every sport is body art and entertainment as well) and dominate an era with major titles, records, firsts, consistency, continuous (technical) growth and longevity.

2. Ambassador (engraved in history)
Move a mass of people all over the world independent from gender, age or nationality and create magic moments that will be remembered, rewatched, discussed and celebrated forever.

3. Hero (inspiring the future)
Inspire new young talents to dive into a sport and become the champions of tomorrow. A sport always needs heroes whom children can look up to, both as athletes and characters.

Hanyu excels in all three aspects. It's hard to compare skaters of different eras with different rules and focus, level of difficulty and depth of the competitive field. So it's hard to talk about the greatest of ALL time, but in HIS time I can't recall any other male skater, who hits these three aspects better overall.

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just to be the devil's advocate...

One could argue a few points.

1 Master... Dominant in present. Yes, Yuzuru won the two Olympic titles but not with convincing skating... everyone can say that in Sochi, Patrick was one lsss pop away from changing things after he did land his quads and Yuzu faltered in the free.
What makes Nadal or Federer so dominant is that on their respective surfaces, they keep winning....

Here is the Wolds table from when Chiddy started medalling

United States Los Angeles United States Evan Lysacek Canada Patrick Chan France Brian Joubert
2010 Italy Turin Japan Daisuke Takahashi Canada Patrick Chan France Brian Joubert
2011 Russia Moscow Canada Patrick Chan Japan Takahiko Kozuka Russia Artur Gachinski
2012 France Nice Canada Patrick Chan Japan Daisuke Takahashi Japan Yuzuru Hanyu
2013 Canada London Canada Patrick Chan Kazakhstan Denis Ten Spain Javier Fernández
2014 Japan Saitama Japan Yuzuru Hanyu Japan Tatsuki Machida Spain Javier Fernández *
2015 China Shanghai Spain Javier Fernández Japan Yuzuru Hanyu Kazakhstan Denis Ten *
2016 United States Boston Spain Javier Fernández Japan Yuzuru Hanyu China Jin Boyang
2017 Finland Helsinki Japan Yuzuru Hanyu Japan Shoma Uno China Jin Boyang
2018 Italy Milan United States Nathan Chen Japan Shoma Uno Russia Mikhail Kolyada * , **
2019 Japan Saitama United States Nathan Chen Japan Yuzuru Hanyu United States Vincent Zhou *

* no Chan
** no Hanyu

Patrick established a dominance being constantly on the podium until he retired after Sochi. 5 world medals, 1 olympic silver (+ 1 team event) etc and many wins over every other skater, including beating Yuzuru at Skate Canada a few times... He was the DOMINANT skater.
Yuzuru's win at GPF that year shook things up and Patrick has only himself to blame for Sochi. His mental preparation wasn't good.
On would think that this would start Yuzuru's dominance. It didn't.

Yuzuru won his first worlds, right after the games of 2014... it was only his 2nd medal at worlds. Many said Tatsuki should have won it... so it wasn't a dominant and clear win... Right along these times, Fernandez was building his own short period dominance with a streak of world podium finishes : 4, including twice as world champion.

Even upon Chiddy's return, Yuzuru failed to beat Patrick Chan, who only had one quad and one 3a in his LP at Skate Canada. Yuzuru did win Helsinki and 2018 games : but then, already Nathan is there with two world titles in a row.

One can argue that Yuzuru has been injured and that's very true. However, an injured athlete, is rarely seen as the top dominant one. Look at Andy Murray : he is not part of the 3 dominant Masters of tennis, mostly because, if he has won a few slams and home olympics, he has also been through many surgeries and has been watching tennis from the bleachers rather than playing it for many weeks (her returned in doubles this week).

So : yes, Yuzuru was always in the mix, always a top dog, but then he managed to never win worlds against Patrick before Sochi, and after that, Javier and Nathan have had consecutive titles which he has never achieved.

2. Ambassador : there is no denial Yuzuru has a huge fan base. However, to your definition of ambassador of the sport, i would add a few things : an athlete who keeps challenging his sport regulations to advance or promote the sport... like Patrick when saying too many quads destroy programs, or like Nadal advocating that not only top 20 tennismen can earn a living from the sport or like Roger talking about how extenuating the ATP tour's calendar is for the body ... or like Billie Jean King and Serena Williams making statements about gender equality in sport. Yuzu is a mythical character but he is QUIET. He doesn't speak much to media. Keeps to himself. Has no social media. This, to me, doesn't make him an ambassador but certainly catalyses the paparazzi mode in his fans.
3 hero : inspiring the future... something Joubert, Lambiel, Chan, Orser and many others do now, teaching kids... and sharing their knowledge with them. It's only one way to be a hero and we will see what Yuzuru does of his after-skating career but i find it a bit soon to evaluate that, when a skater is still active.

4everchan said:

Patrick established a dominance being constantly on the podium until he retired after Sochi. 5 world medals, 1 olympic silver (+ 1 team event) etc and many wins over every other skater, including beating Yuzuru at Skate Canada a few times... He was the DOMINANT skater.

Even upon Chiddy's return, Yuzuru failed to beat Patrick Chan, who only had one quad and one 3a in his LP at Skate Canada.

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Do you even check skaters' data? Hanyu has two Olympic individual golds, 6 Worlds medals, 4 GPF gold & a silver - already more major medals than Chan despite he has competed for almost a quad less than Chan.

You focus on that time when Hanyu lose to Chan post-Sochi at SC (Chan's home), but no mention of the other 6 times at actual major competitions like Worlds, Olympics and GPF where Chan not only lost to Hanyu but was off-podium. He was off-podium at the four major competitions for the last three years of his career, other than one 4CC which neither Yuzu nor Javi attended. How does that make him the dominant skater until he retired after Sochi? 2010/2011 - 2012/2013 sure, the later years no longer the case.

Hanyu started to podium on the four big competitions from his first adult season, and ever since he moved to Orser, for the past 7 years, he has never got anything less than silver at the four big competitions (other than 2013 Worlds where he was so injured that he would withdraw if he wasn't forced to fight for Japan's Olympic spots), and he got MORE gold medals than silver medals for the matter. This means he was a contender for gold the whole time. On top of that, he on average broke two world records every year (some years more than 2) adding up to 18 world records , the most records of any single skater under the COP system, meaning he also constantly tops himself every year. This is much closer to what is called "Dominance".

And yes he lost to his rival in some competitions, but he beats them back more times - not to say his main gold contender rival keeps changing, and commonly drop off podium afterwards. In 2013,2014 it was Chan (who stop podium at Worlds afterwards), 2015,2016 it was Javi (who then was off podium in 2017 GPF & Worlds), 2017 it was Uno (who was off podium this year), 2017, 2019 it was Chen (who was off podium at 2017 Worlds & 2018 Olympics). The only constant main gold contender this whole 7 years was Yuzu.

4everchan said:

1 Master... Dominant in present. Yes, Yuzuru won the two Olympic titles but not with convincing skating... everyone can say that in Sochi, Patrick was one lsss pop away from changing things after he did land his quads and Yuzu faltered in the free.

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It doesn't matter, what could have happened. Everything could have happened. What counts is that Hanyu delivered when he had to. He was the first to win two individual Olympic golds in 66 years. He was the first to win four GPFs in a row. He has won two world titles, not back to back, but distributed over a cycle that just proves his longevity. He has set 18 world record scores in 6 years, holds all historic records and the current short. He was the first to surpass the 100, 200 and 300 mark. He was the first to land a 4Lo, 4T+1Eu+3S and 4T+3A in competition plus countless other firsts. He has finished only twice off-podium since 2012 (both 4. place, no meltdown) and every medal was gold or silver since 2013. If that's not dominance, I don't know either. (I'm sure that even with 5 world titles and 6 4CC victories people would find something to nitpick about... That he has never won Euros or hell knows what).

Patrick might have beaten him at his home GP at the beginning of the season, but when it came to the really big events (Olympics, Worlds, GPF, 4CC) he never finished before Hanyu in any of them since 13/14. In Barcelona 2015 Hanyu defeated him by 67 points. I think Patrick would have exchanged all of his SC golds for a victory in that Final (which is still considered as the best senior men's GPF up to date).

To the ambassador role: If there's ANYTHING that you can actually criticize about Hanyu, is his defensive attitude towards English. He has been living in Canada for 7 years now and still prefers to give official presscons and interviews in Japanese with translators next to him. However, to state that Yuzuru Hanyu doesn't say anything to promote or change the sport, is simply wrong. He says A LOT, especially in Japanese. You just have to search for it. Twitter is flooded with quotes and translations from him.

To be honest: I respect him particularly for his silence about the current system. He's not lamenting over unfair scores, he has never put his placements into question, never criticized the system. He always blamed himself after every defeat and responded that he must work harder. He could have every opportunity to sigh about the current quad race and say goodbye to competition, but he takes the challenge and aims for all six types of quads in his arsenal, which no skater in history has ever achieved yet. This is the attitude of a true champion and I'm looking forward to see that.

And finally: Hanyu IS already an inspiration for countless young skaters. Just to mention a few: Alexander Plushenko, Vadim Voronov, Daniel Grassl, Tomoki Hiwatashi, Sota Yamamoto, Stephen Gogolev. They all look up to him, study his skating, his jumps, learn his signature moves like Hydroblading or Pistol, get inspired by his costumes and programs.
Inspiring a young generation of skaters to become skaters theirself does not require that you're a coach or long retired. Kim Yuna has inspired a whole country to learn figure skating and she's not a coach. When Hanyu was a kid, his idols Plushenko and Weir were still competing and had nothing to do with coaching back then.

I've never agreed with anyone's posts more wholeheartedly than with 4everchan in this thread but I was wise enough (or coward enough) to delete my initial post as I didn't want to deal with an army of Yuzuru's fans.
Now I'm usually able to ignore Yuzuru but let's just say he, or his fans that's it, were one of the major reasons I wanted to quit watching fs. You just open Twitter and get such a massive Hanyu overdose that you have to block and mute and repeat.
I don't have anything to add to his GOAT status. He may have the most medals and titles, he may have the most technical difficulty but it's not possible to convince everyone that he's the absolutely best or that he's the best performer and that everyone has to love him.

^ well, IMO, better an overdose of Yuzuru than of some celebrities who have never done anything meaningful

Why are we even arguing here, this is such a matter of opinion, let everyone crown GOAT whoever they like, Yuzuru, Nathan, Patrick, Javi, Evgeni or someone else.
Not going to lie though, for me Hanyu is a talent and revelation the like of which I have never seen in skating yet. For me he is GOAT.

@ henni, don't forget Mitsuki who's reportedly a huge fanboy.

Lol, how did Patrick get mixed up in the topic of "Is Hanyu the greatest or not?" Yuzu's not the greatest because... Patrick beat him at Skate Canada? That's what I'm getting here? I mean, it's certainly a very valid argument.

Henni147 said:

And finally: Hanyu IS already an inspiration for countless young skaters.

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This gives me a perfect opportunity to post this cuteness:

https://i.redd.it/nosatkuu51631.jpg

4everchan said:

.
( Yuzu is a mythical character but he is QUIET. He doesn't speak much to media. Keeps to himself. Has no social media. This, to me, doesn't make him an ambassador but certainly catalyses the paparazzi mode in his fans.
.

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I think this is a common misconception between non-fans or people who mostly consume english-based media on him.

Although he is indeed quite private especially during off season and doesn't engage in social media, in terms of interviews he usually gives several of them during the season for japanese TV segments, documentaries and magazines.

Taking this last Worlds as an example, he gave a video interview for a pre-competition documentary , spoke for half an hour live on TV right after the free skate at an 1-hour long special, did commentary on his free skate , gave an interview a few days later about next season and the rivalry with Nathan, another where they printed his and Nathan's free skate protocols and asked his thoughts about it plus thoughts on his season and the new judging system. There was also written interviews on magazines and articles.

From what I gather one of the reasons of his popularity in Japan is because he's well spoken and assertive/confident in his remarks, which is quite unusual for a japanese athlete, while still mantaining a sense of humbleness. Most media outlets prefer to focus on the plushies and the mass hysteria which I understand. The focus usually is to bring attention to a sport that is niche in most countries and what better matter than to bring the absurdity of it all. The rest tend to be lost in the middle. And of course it's a compliment to comment on the ethereal quality and mystique of his skating and personality, but when it goes overboard, even when propelled by his own fans, sometimes it borders on alienation and it becomes hard to relate to. In the end, he's an exceptional human but human nonetheless.

There's several fan-translated interviews from him on youtube and other social media similar to the ones I've posted here as examples. If anything his 'presence' on social media due to his fanbase, despite him not wanting to have anything to do with it is quite ironic.

This is one my favourite press conferences from him.

If I remember correctly he talks about asian representation in the sport, the blend between technique and artistry, his perception of 'dreams', his recover from injury, the financial burden of being a skating fan, the 3/11 earthquake reconstruction, answers if he feels lonely being a champion and other topics. There's timestamps at the description.

Another similar post Olympics conference but with an interpreter and questions in english.

Clairecz said:

[...] it's not possible to convince everyone that he's the absolutely best or that he's the best performer and that everyone has to love him.

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I agree that it is not possible to make every single person love a specific skater. No athlete in the world is loved by everyone.

However, with sober facts and reasonable arguments it must be possible to judge figure skating accurately in all its athletic and choreographic aspects and to pick a GOAT on that basis. Independent if you like that GOAT or not. Michael Phelps is not my favorite swimmer, but I have to admit that his achievements in that sport are unmatched and it's very hard to put his GOAT status into question.

PS: It's true that some (so called) fans are annoying or even rude, but there are at least as many people who are still pieceful supporters, deserve to be heard and taken serious (even if they are members of certain "fan-armies" or write 3-4 pages long essays... *cough* )