Yuzuru Hanyu, Greatest Or Not The Greatest?

I am a fan of Patrick Chan’s skating. Yuzuru is much better than him. Why?
1) Patrick Chan was very arrogant. Yuzu is not.
2) Patrick crumbled under pressure. Yuzu does not.
3) Patrick always made severe mistakes in his programs. Yuzu tends not to.
4) Yuzu is pushing himself to his limit. Chan coasts and didn’t push as far as he could.
5) Yuzu is constantly challenging himself and the sport. Patrick was trying to bring the sport backwards.
6) Chans spins are good, but don’t touch Yuzu.
7) They are similar on PCS levels, but Yuzu has higher TES to back it up.
8) In many times during the sport Chan had to rely on heavy inflation in terms of scoring, to compensate for mistakes. Sometimes (not all the time) other people deserved to win Canadian Nationals.
I love watching Chan, however he does not come close to Yuzu.

Henni147 said:

PS: ... there are peoplewho deserve to be heard and taken serious (even if they ... write 3-4 pages long essays... )

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My guilty pleasure. I actually like reading all the essays about why someone's fave is the most wonderful inspiration in the world, etc.

Good for @4everchan for sticking up for his guy! Good for all the Yuzu supporters who have contributed to this thread! Good for all the posters who brought up the oldies but goodies!

djkaye said:

4) Yuzu is pushing himself to his limit. Chan coasts and didn’t push as far as he could.
5) Yuzu is constantly challenging himself and the sport. Patrick was trying to bring the sport backwards.

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I have to disagree here. Chan came on the scene as the master of blade to ice skills. He was so far ahead of everyone else in this regard that, indeed, he could have coasted and still won a lot of stuff.

Instead, realizing that he had to go forward and not back, he undertook to add quads to his program. Not a trivial decision for the time.

With these two parts of his skating arsenal in hand, Patrtick finally tackled the arduous task of elevating the artistic side.

Obviously by the very end of his career he began to fall off the pace that he had established at the beginning and middle -- who doesn't? Still, even at his last hurrah he was able to reach down deep and help his national team win the Olympic team gold medal.

You guys are still going on about Patrick? How is he relevant to the topic on hand?

Just a clarification: you may have misjudged me for Patrick’s fan (though I do miss him). But in fact I’m a huuuge Javi fan. I don’t think I’ll ever love another skater the way I love him but yeah, I’m not going around saying he’s the goat, even though for me he IS the best skater, the most handsome man on the planet, the best performer and so on…

I don’t mind people calling Yuzuru the GOAT. However what I do mind is the need of some of his fans to persuade everyone about their only truth and convince them that he is the greatest. Some posters have made legitimate claims of Dick Button, Plushenko or Patrick being at least on par with Hanyu… and it just starts another wave of persuading (btw. how can you compare who’s more popular Hanyu in the era of social media or Dick Button way back in the 1950s… or how can you compare who attracted more people to begin skating? Plushenko or Hanyu? Or isn’t building figure skating from scratch in a country with no fs tradition even a bigger feat? Or does a goat really have to do this? And we cetainly wouldn’t blame Dick Button for skating at the Olympics uninjured so that he can’t beat Yuzuru in this department because it’s the contest even in this??)

I’ve gone as far as admitting that „he may have the most medals and titles, he may have the most technical difficulty“ but in fact it doesn’t mean anything to me because his skating – the reason why we watch this sport – leaves me completely emotionally untouched.

But I promise I’ll be better at ignoring Yuzuru next time.

mrrice said:

Rude!!!!!!! Patrick and Plushy are my favorite skaters ever...…..Patrick has a TON of fans. Take that back.

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I agree. And let's not forget, while Patrick admitted that he hated Yuzu for a long while after Sochi (for which you can't blame him, and full marks for keeping it private), he has pretty much come round and from this translated quote
https://twitter.com/BlueFlame4YUZU/status/1121425247578677249
is now another convert to the Yuzu-as-legend fandom And Yuzu had always been in Patrick's fan club and made that crystal clear.

Clairecz said:

Now I'm usually able to ignore Yuzuru...

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... which - forgive me - does beg the question why you clicked on a thread with his name all over the title, but nevertheless...

I don't have anything to add to his GOAT status. He may have the most medals and titles, he may have the most technical difficulty but it's not possible to convince everyone that he's the absolutely best or that he's the best performer and that everyone has to love him.

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Of course you don't have to see him that way. No one does (I believe that between this and the Alina thread I have mentioned that undisputed GOAT is not possible and how dull it would be if everyone agreed a number of times, is anyone listening?) But by the same token, all the millions who do have plenty of valid reasons are aren't wrong because he doesn't have that blessed 4CC.

It's like me and Elvis (or if we are talking sports heroes, me and Australia's Shane Warne, cricketer and yobbo extraordinaire. The fact that I or others can't see his greatness doesn't mean that more people can. and they have a valid claim to do so. And with Yuzu, the 'more people' does appear to include commentators, artists, other GOATs and legends (like Dick Button, like Plushy, like Yagudin, like Patrick) and possible legends of the future (Nathan, Shoma, the list of up and coming posted elsewhere in this thread, and a heeeeap of adorable pictures of little skaters in Japan and elsewhere whose costumes reflect Yuzu in their starry eyes)

And you can't convince me that the current crop of men aren't - if they're honest - grateful to Yuzu for bringing the crowds that they have gotten used to having at events.

TallyT said:

... which - forgive me - does beg the question why you clicked on a thread with his name all over the title, but nevertheless...

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As I said I'm usually better at ignoring him, today I just felt brave enough to face his army of fans and to voice my honest opinion...

Clairecz said:

Just a clarification: you may have misjudged me for Patrick’s fan (though I do miss him). But in fact I’m a huuuge Javi fan. I don’t think I’ll ever love another skater the way I love him but yeah, I’m not going around saying he’s the goat, even though for me he IS the best skater, the most handsome man on the planet, the best performer and so on…

I don’t mind people calling Yuzuru the GOAT. However what I do mind is the need of some of his fans to persuade everyone about their only truth and convince them that he is the greatest. Some posters have made legitimate claims of Dick Button, Plushenko or Patrick being at least on par with Hanyu… and it just starts another wave of persuading (btw. how can you compare who’s more popular Hanyu in the era of social media or Dick Button way back in the 1950s… or how can you compare who attracted more people to begin skating? Plushenko or Hanyu? Or isn’t building figure skating from scratch in a country with no fs tradition even a bigger feat? Or does a goat really have to do this? And we cetainly wouldn’t blame Dick Button for skating at the Olympics uninjured so that he can’t beat Yuzuru in this department because it’s the contest even in this??)

I’ve gone as far as admitting that „he may have the most medals and titles, he may have the most technical difficulty“ but in fact it doesn’t mean anything to me because his skating – the reason why we watch this sport – leaves me completely emotionally untouched.

But I promise I’ll be better at ignoring Yuzuru next time.

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So when Yuzu's fans explain why they think he's the GOAT it's persuading. But when other posters explain why other skaters are the greatests it's just making legitimate claims...

Clairecz said:

I don’t mind people calling Yuzuru the GOAT. However what I do mind is the need of some of his fans to persuade everyone about their only truth and convince them that he is the greatest. Some posters have made legitimate claims of Dick Button, Plushenko or Patrick being at least on par with Hanyu… and it just starts another wave of persuading

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As far as I can see, there are many posts in this thread trying to persuade people on both side of the arguments. Yet you only choose to focus on the Yuzu side. Most Hanyu fans here acknowledged again and again that they understand not everyone in the world likes his skating, that its hard to compare across eras so there are GOATS of different eras, including Button, and try to attach objective facts, statistics and other commentators opinions to back up their argument instead of just "He is the GOAT, take it or leave it.

If anything its the people on the other side that insist there is only THE GOAT and for whatever reason - whether its there is Button, Hanyu had a fall in Sochi, he has no 4CC - Hanyu can't be the GOAT, not even one of. Or more commonly "I don't like his skating, hence he is not the GOAT in my opinion (end of story, no other reason needed to be provided)". Which they are totally fine to have that opinion, no post say you are not allowed have that opinion. But it baffles me that they can have an opinion but Hanyu fans can't express an opposite opinion, and if they do they are not legitimate claims. I know your post don't say that, but that is what it is implying.

TallyT said:

...yobbo...

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I love this board!

Considering the opening post was definitely trying to drum up drama, I'm glad so many have chimed in civilly with their thoughts and opinions without getting nasty. :agree:
Greatest of All Time seems to inherently make all athletes, no matter how amazing disqualified because all time is ALL time. There has never been a criteria for this legendary title so there will never be a consensus.

Of course, as a fan of Yuzu I think he's the greatest skater of his generation, and he's still competing, so his legendary status may grow even more.
4CC gold may still be won, and if/when he gets it, will he be the undisputed GOAT? -NO, cause one extra gold isn't going to change anyone's mind if they've already got an opinion.

In the end, multiple 'Greatest' skaters means that the sport has had many highlights, pioneers and innovators and stars. If Yuzu is counted at the forefront of that group, even if he's not alone, that's enough for me.

Rissa said:

You guys are still going on about Patrick? How is he relevant to the topic on hand?

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because "greatest" is a superlative which invites for discussion about others in the field.

4everchan said:

just to be the devil's advocate...

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And to be angel's advocate in turn....

Yes, Yuzuru won the two Olympic titles but not with convincing skating... everyone can say that in Sochi, Patrick was one lsss pop away from changing things after he did land his quads and Yuzu faltered in the free.

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But he didn't change things. Having watched them both, my admittedly amateur impression is that Yuzu made mistakes, but didn't lose heart; he knew he'd blown it but kept fighting with everything he had. And it was his first Olympics as one of the youngest there, even if he'd done brilliantly in the team and short. The pressure got to pretty much all the men, and the younger, untested of the two made it through better.

Patrick established a dominance being constantly on the podium until he retired after Sochi. 5 world medals, 1 olympic silver (+ 1 team event) etc and many wins over every other skater, including beating Yuzuru at Skate Canada a few times...

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Yuzu has only twice been lower that silver since his Worlds Bronze at 17 years of age. Once fourth in 2012-3, the year he changed coaches with the disruption that entailed, and once fourth at the NHK when he was still suffering from his horror crash in 2015.

Unquestionably Yuzu shared his dominance with Javi, and the brotherly way they did it is already one of the legends in the sport. Plushenko shared with Yagudin, however much it annoyed them both, and both of them are GOATS, yes?

One can argue that Yuzuru has been injured and that's very true. However, an injured athlete, is rarely seen as the top dominant one.

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Err.... that would appear to be an argument in Yuzu's favour??? His health (not only injuries, but illness and asthma) has held him back from achieving absolutely everything he could have, but given he is still able to conquer the field... he beat the whole lot of them in PC, and everyone except a hale and healthy Nathan Chen in Worlds 19, both times on a mixture of painkillers, brilliance, willpower and sheer grit.

Isn't overcoming everything thrown at them, to achieve above and beyond, one of the things that makes a sports star great, and loved?

...an athlete who keeps challenging his sport regulations to advance or promote the sport... like Patrick when saying too many quads destroy programs ...Yuzu is a mythical character but he is QUIET. He doesn't speak much to media. Keeps to himself. Has no social media. This, to me, doesn't make him an ambassador but certainly catalyses the paparazzi mode in his fans.

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I think this has been answered by others. Yuzu does say quite a bit to the media, but most of it is not in English (other fans translate for us Japanese-lacking) and he's both eloquent and thoughtful. But he seems to try to avoid saying what could be read as complaining, making excuses, or whining (as does Shoma). He says a lot that other younger sportspeople (not just skaters) can be inspired by on a personal level. He also visits schools, does skating classes (the videos of Yuzu advising and encouraging baby skaters in Japan are simply adorable) and special presentations etc etc. Because it's not in an English-speaking country doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And also, he is an ambassador - and more - for the people who suffered and are still suffering for the disaster that pretty much shaped his young life, he rarely misses a chance to advocate for the skaters of the area who need help and support and for the people there in general.

As far as social media is concerned, it's a good thing he keeps away: some of the people that dog Evgenia and Alina online are horrifying, and Yuzu's are worse even when they can't get directly at him (he does have stalkers too, which is scary)

Goat debate always end with fan's battle. And blaming fandom. Everyone has different subjective standards and nobody can force it.
At similar previous thread I said same thing.

If we ask "who is a Goat for you ? "to yuzu. I 'm 99% sure he'll answer Plusenko as his forever hero.

I find Men's single is very different from Ladies single. Longevity is almost guranteed, men can challenge harder contents with aging due to less puberty. But it is very easy to get serious injury with hard jumps.

As a yuzu fan, I definetly know he's not everyone's cup of tea. I don't argue he's a best artist or the most difficult jumper in the world. And not the most consistant champion, too. But I feel he's the most competitive man and always eager to evolve even after 2 Ogms and countless injuries. I think this is a ture champion mind.

With Op, I know he hasn't win 4cc. But it seems like he dosen't weigh glandslam title or 4cc medals that much. Regarding this season, I only pray for no injury.. with challenging other quads. Yuzu isn't a young boy anymore. I don't think he will go Beijing, so hope good ending with competitive skatings at least no regrets.

Rissa said:

You guys are still going on about Patrick? How is he relevant to the topic on hand?

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He isn't.

Mathman said:

I have to disagree here. Chan came on the scene as the master of blade to ice skills. He was so far ahead of everyone else in this regard that, indeed, he could have coasted and still won a lot of stuff.

Instead, realizing that he had to go forward and not back, he undertook to add quads to his program. Not a trivial decision for the time.

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He did? The guy had an ice dance coach, and for the past few years, in every one of his competition threads people here were questioning why he wasn't getting technical specialist as a coach ASAP and why he still wasn't fixing his 3A. He definitely misjudged the quad revolution in men's and got overtaken.

Mathman said:

Chan came on the scene as the master of blade to ice skills. He was so far ahead of everyone else in this regard that, indeed, he could have coasted and still won a lot of stuff.

Instead, realizing that he had to go forward and not back, he undertook to add quads to his program. Not a trivial decision for the time.

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lilahozi said:

He did? The guy had an ice dance coach ...

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I do not see how anyone can possibly deny the simple historical fact that Chan first came on the scene (under coach Osborne Colson) as a footwork guy.

Then in the 2010-2011 season, switching to technical coach Christy Krall after Colson's death, he "undertook to add quads to his programs." This is simply a fact. That's what he did. He landed 4T and 4T+3T that season, plus improved his triple Axel, landing 3A+3T.

[For the 2012-2013 season he was coached by Kathy Johnson in a conscious attempt at advancing his artistc expression.

None of this speaks to the question of whether Hanyu is the GOAT or not, nor belittles Hanyu's accomplishments in any way. But I believe it is an accurate description of the arc of Patrick's career.]

^And 2013 onwards?

Edit: Never mind.

Any discussion of 'greatness' usually includes other athletes regarded similarly hence why Patrick is relevant to the conversation. In terms of medals, Patrick did dominate for a number of years and, even if amidst the usual scoring discourse and hiccups, when judged by his skating quality alone his superiority can't be denied. In my opinion, he was the first man to sucessfully blend the IJS formula with quads in terms of program construction and transitions, which is indeed a technnical breakthrough. Even if this unfortunately isn't brought up as much as his superior skating skills.

Yuzuru said this about him a few years ago: "I assume he's responsible for building up this era more than he could imagine. For me Patrick is still like the sun, but someday I must surpass that sun. By receiving his sunlight I was able to look down at the shadow. My overconfidence, my insufficiency, those shadows urged me in pursuit of being able to skate as though myself is gleaming." (s)

Patrick also spoke about how his perception of Yuzuru changed after Pyeongchang, he admitted that he hated him back then and is able now to recognize his greatness. And the Team Oly Gold probably helped him to achieve a better peace of mind.

Although the present discussion does give me 2013 flashbacks which is kind of funny.