Natural clockwise skaters who jump counterclockwise

yume · Jul 6, 2019

In a recent interview i learned that Elena Radionova is a natural clockwise skater but she was taught to jump counterclockwise. Because Russia has a group approach in training while other countries have individual approach https://fs-gossips.com/elena-radion...art-hating-you-even-for-some-innocent-phrase/
The only other skater that i know who doesn't jump in her natural direction is Satoko Miyahara. Thought she has consistent jumps, they are tiny, very pre-rotated and she has URs issues. Radionova's jumps have a respectable height and distance, she was a jumping bean before puberty, but after puberty she had more difficulty to control her jumps and most of her landings were rough.

Do you think that skaters who jump in the opposite direction than their natural direction have a disadvantage compared to those who jump in their natural direction? Does it take part in the inability to learn jumps properly or to keep them after puberty?

P44 · Jul 6, 2019

Wow I did not know it existed, I find it really shocking. It's like forcing a left-handed to write with the right hand (I know it was done in the past).
I guess it's a disadvantage for the people involved. That said, I don't think it can be changed once the skaters have spent several years jumping in one direction.

Ic3Rabbit · Jul 6, 2019

From experience, No.

RemyRose · Jul 6, 2019

yume said:
In a recent interview i learned that Elena Radionova is a natural clockwise skater but she was taught to jump counterclockwise.

But how do we know that Elena is a natural clockwise skater? Unlike Satoko, who I read used to jump clockwise, Elena never did. It seems she wasn't given a choice so we don't know if she is a natural clockwise skater or not. I don't think it's automatic that if you write left-handed (or right-handed), you will jump clockwise (or counterclockwise). Alissa Czisny seems right-handed and jumps clockwise. Same with Kaetlyn Osmond, right-handed and jumps clockwise. Adelina Sotnikova is left-handed and jumps counterclockwise.

At least with Adelina/Kaetlyn I wouldn't say they had small, very pre-rotated jumps or that they couldn't keep their jumps after puberty or that it affected them at all. They were just inconsistent. I liked their jumps a lot when they were on, they were quite something to see. Sheer power, height and distance :love:

JMO!

As far as Satoko/Elena goes, there are plenty of skaters who jump in their natural direction who has similar issues (pre-rotated/under-rotated jumps, jumps lost due to puberty, etc). So I don't know how much of it has to do with them jumping counterclockwise vs the jumping technique that was taught to them.

yume · Jul 6, 2019

RemyRose said:
But how do we know that Elena is a natural clockwise skater?

Well, given Elena's answer, i assumed that she wasn't jumping in her natural direction. Maybe this assumption is false.

But in Satoko's case i really wonder if her jumps would look a bit different if she was allowed to jump in her natural direction.

elbkup · Jul 6, 2019

This is an interesting topic....
I imagine it would be counterproductive for any coach to train a skater to jump contrary to their comfort zone.... why would they? There does not seem to be any advantage to it whatsoever... :shrug:

However, cross dominance exists ... my boyfriend years ago was.... he pitched a baseball with his right hand, sighted a rifle with his left eye and wrote with either hand.. ambidextrous..... when I asked about it he said he did things the way it was most comfortable for him... I imagine it is the same with skaters..:scratch3:

RemyRose · Jul 6, 2019

Satoko was definitely made to jump counterclockwise when she moved back to Japan from the States. Apparently there were many skaters on the ice and it was safer for them to all jump in the same direction. But I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

yume · Jul 6, 2019

elbkup said:
This is an interesting topic....
I imagine it would be counterproductive for any coach to train a skater to jump contrary to their comfort zone.... why would they? There does not seem to be any advantage to it whatsoever...
However, cross dominance exists ... my boyfriend years ago was.... he pitched a baseball with his right hand, sighted a rifle with his left eye and wrote with either hand.. ambidextrous..... when I asked about it he said he did things the way it was most comfortable for him... I imagine it is the same with skaters..:scratch3:

Interesting hypothesis. But ambidextrous are pretty rare imo (and fascinating). From what i usually see on most of people, there are dominant limbs. Usually if the dominant arm of a person is the right, then the dominant leg is the right too. But obviously there are many exceptions.

Maybe the fact that they learn to jump at a young age make it easier to learn to jump in any direction. Easier to learn something, even if it's not natural when you are a child i think.

And i don't know a top skater (lady) from Japan or Russia who jumps clockwise. Maybe there were a few, 20-30 years back when rinks weren't that crowded.

Mathman · Jul 6, 2019

John Curry jumped counter-clockwise but spun clockwise. Sonja Henie jumped counter-clockwise except for the Lutz, which which she jumped clockwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE&t=0m20s

yume · Jul 6, 2019

Mathman said:
John Curry jumped counter-clockwise but spun clockwise. Sonja Henie jumped counter-clockwise except for the Lutz, which which she jumped clockwise.

Wow for Sonja. Was she really an ambidextrous jumper then? Even if she wasn't jumping all the jumps in both directions maybe she could?

I've read somewhere that Rohene Ward could do some jumps in both directions.

Mathman · Jul 6, 2019

yume said:
Wow for Sonja. Was she really an ambidextrous jumper then? Even if she wasn't jumping all the jumps in both directions maybe she could?

My understanding is that the opposite direction (single) Lutz technique was not unusual back then. By jumping the "wrong way" you get to take advantage of the natural arc of the outside back edge, instead of wrenching your upper body around opposite to what your feet are doing. (?)

In principle I think you you could do a Lutz-Lutz combo by taking off from the opposite foot on the second jump? That would give you 1.20 IJS points for the combo. :yes:

zanadude · Jul 6, 2019

RemyRose said:
Satoko was definitely made to jump counterclockwise when she moved back to Japan from the States..

The plus side is that is one of the very few (possibly only?) skaters that can do spins in both directions.

el henry · Jul 6, 2019

yume said:
Wow for Sonja. Was she really an ambidextrous jumper then? Even if she wasn't jumping all the jumps in both directions maybe she could?

I've read somewhere that Rohene Ward could do some jumps in both directions.

Rohene Ward in an exhibition from 2002, double axel in one direction, two seconds later, double axel in the other direction.

ETA: and spins in both directions, IIRC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc

A beautiful and athletic skater with absolutely no head for competition (which he himself admitted). I believe remember seeing a social media vid when Rohene was working with Kori Ade in Colorado, still jumping in both directions, 15 years later when he wasn't competing. In this instance, it simply seems to be a natural gift.

jenaj · Jul 7, 2019

The majority of people have one dominant side. In skating, lefties usually spin and jump clockwise and prefer steps and turns in the clockwise direction. There are exceptions, but they are just that—exceptions.

dorispulaski · Jul 7, 2019

Rohene grew up in the ISI training program where they encourage you to learn your jumps in both directions. It is a recreational, not a competitive oriented program.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080705133318/http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2005/102605.shtml

Golden Skate did an interview with Rohene back in 2005:

Rohene: I do certain things in exhibitions and shows that I don't do in competition, but there isn't one distinct thing that I consider my signature. For instance, most skaters jump left – counter-clockwise – and I can go either direction on the triple salchow, triple toe and triple lutz. I attribute that ability to early training under the ISI (a recreational organization separate from the USFS) skating program in which to pass different levels you had to jump singles and even doubles in both directions. For fun, I started doing every move in both directions. Eventually I went up through all the levels doing moves, jumps, and spins in either direction just for my own satisfaction and because it was fun

brens78 · Jul 7, 2019

For Satoko's case, it's one of the big mysteries on how good of a jumper she'd be if she didn't have to go counter clockwise? Would she still be a small jumper with UR errors or one with more natural spring and control?

denise3lz · Jul 7, 2019

yume said:
And i don't know a top skater (lady) from Japan or Russia who jumps clockwise. Maybe there were a few, 20-30 years back when rinks weren't that crowded.

Miwa Fukuhara, 6-time Japanese Ladies National champion and 5th at 1964 Olympics was clockwise jumper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id5E4UIulNo&t=25s

Nobuo Sato, 10-time Japanese Men National champion and 8th at 1964 Olympics was also clockwise jumper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25uut2HMrBo

Harriet · Jul 7, 2019

yume said:
I've read somewhere that Rohene Ward could do some jumps in both directions.

So does Lambiel IIRC - I remember seeing some clips of him warming up for Intimissimi on Ice a couple of years ago by doing double axels in both directions - but I'm not sure how he developed the skill and I think he only ever jumped anticlockwise in competition. I know Carolina Kostner jumps clockwise; not sure whether she ever tried jumping anticlockwise, but if she did she clearly didn't like it and stuck with her natural direction instead.

zanadude · Jul 7, 2019

brens78 said:
For Satoko's case, it's one of the big mysteries on how good of a jumper she'd be if she didn't have to go counter clockwise? Would she still be a small jumper with UR errors or one with more natural spring and control?

This phenomenon in Japan is not unique to figure skating. Kimiko Date, until recently Japan's greatest female tennis player ever, is left-handed, but was trained to play tennis right-handed.

gabriele · Jul 7, 2019

Rodnina/Ulanov with their 'Axel Paulsen beidseitig' (both sides) at 4.40. Courtesy floskate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5vxqdsLu6g

Natural clockwise skaters who jump counterclockwise

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