Pattern 99 v. Phantom: Shorter tail or optical illusion?

Sibelius · Jul 13, 2019

Hi All,

Looking at photos of the two blades it really looks like the tail section of the P99 is shorter than the Phantom. For those of you who have used these blades is that the case? All I have are photos right now and no way to compare them in the flesh at the moment. The Gold Seal tail also looks shorter than the Gold Star. If that is the case, are there advantages, disadvantages, or does is make no difference at all? I know, 7' rocker v. 8' rocker, but didn't know the blade tails were different.

My skater is starting double flip next week (if she softens her pick into her single as her coach is telling her to). I promised her new blades when coach certified her first 3 doubles were good and she's almost there. I'm reneging a bit by having her wait a few more months so we can get new boots at the same time, which I don't like to do, but when the blades are $5-600 I can't afford the usual new blade on old boot method we've been using. Besides, she's got 3 competitions, a free skate test and a moves test coming up in the next 2 months.

At this point I'm leaning in the MK direction since her spins aren't great and I've seen some recommendations to stick with 7' rocker if spins aren't solid. Coach says get whatever works for her, though she's a long time Gold Seal skater who says that has worked for all her skaters in the past.

Updated: Here's (hopefully) a link to the best images I can find. Gold Seal/Gold Star look close, P99 appears shorter than Phantom.

https://scarletskater.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/blade-profiles/

tstop4me · Jul 13, 2019

I don't have direct comparisons of the tail lengths of the blades (in the same size). But I'm surprised about your comment on the Gold Seal, since one of the prominent features of the Gold Seal is an extra long tail.

Sibelius · Jul 13, 2019

tstop4me said:
I don't have direct comparisons of the tail lengths of the blades (in the same size). But I'm surprised about your comment on the Gold Seal, since one of the prominent features of the Gold Seal is an extra long tail.

That's my question, optical illusion? different size in the photos? I'll get to see them all in a couple of weeks so I'm just curious at this point.

bunnybarista · Jul 13, 2019

I've also noticed that the Phantom tail looks noticeably longer than the Pattern 99 in pictures. The Gold Seal looks to be about the same length as the Pattern 99, whereas the MK Gold Star might be the shortest of them all. Again, just based on their online pictures. I would be very curious to see if that is indeed the case "in real life" - please report back when you see them in person!

Sibelius · Jul 13, 2019

bunnybarista said:
I've also noticed that the Phantom tail looks noticeably longer than the Pattern 99 in pictures. The Gold Seal looks to be about the same length as the Pattern 99, whereas the MK Gold Star might be the shortest of them all. Again, just based on their online pictures. I would be very curious to see if that is indeed the case "in real life" - please report back when you see them in person!

I will. We are due for a sharpening in a couple of weeks and I hope they have all in stock so I can compare. I've updated with a link to some good quality images of the blades.

tstop4me · Jul 13, 2019

Sibelius said:
I will. We are due for a sharpening in a couple of weeks and I hope they have all in stock so I can compare. I've updated with a link to some good quality images of the blades.

Yeah, I wouldn't make any conclusions based on photos. Even assuming the blades are all the same length (which we don't know), the sides of the blade would have to be lying flat and the camera would have to be pointed straight down for a fair comparison. But from the view of the mounting plates, we know that wasn't the case. Even small shifts in viewing angle will distort perception of relative dimensions.

Ic3Rabbit · Jul 13, 2019

Don't base your decision on photos, it's not that I am aware from wearing just about every blade at some point :laugh:

.

You might be seeing a photo of a P99 that is a larger size than the phantom in the photo.

You never know.

Also remember Phantom has a 7ft rocker, P99 has 8 ft.

Sibelius · Jul 13, 2019

Ic3Rabbit said:
Don't base your decision on photos, it's not that I am aware from wearing just about every blade at some point .

You might be seeing a photo of a P99 that is a larger size than the phantom in the photo.

You never know.

Also remember Phantom has a 7ft rocker, P99 has 8 ft.

No decision made until we get past the comps. and the tests. If her spins improve over the next 3 months (she's finally working on them almost as much as her jumps) we'll go ahead with Gold Seal or P99 and 8' rocker, if not we'll stick with 7' and either the Phantom or Gold Star.

The images just really make it seem like that tail is longer. I'll see them in 2 weeks and check. I do have a dilemma though. We'll get the boots at one fitter who does better boot fittings. I'd like to get the blades from a different one who has better QC on the Wilson/MK blades she gets in, and is located inside a rink for fine tuning of mounting. But the first tech does better sharpening. Trying to figure a way to not burn bridges or bruise egos. In the end though it's all about what's best for my skater.

Sam L · Jul 14, 2019

Sibelius said:
No decision made until we get past the comps. and the tests. If her spins improve over the next 3 months (she's finally working on them almost as much as her jumps) we'll go ahead with Gold Seal or P99 and 8' rocker, if not we'll stick with 7' and either the Phantom or Gold Star.

The images just really make it seem like that tail is longer. I'll see them in 2 weeks and check. I do have a dilemma though. We'll get the boots at one fitter who does better boot fittings. I'd like to get the blades from a different one who has better QC on the Wilson/MK blades she gets in, and is located inside a rink for fine tuning of mounting. But the first tech does better sharpening. Trying to figure a way to not burn bridges or bruise egos. In the end though it's all about what's best for my skater.

Phantom does have a pretty long tail. I went from Coronation Ace which had a relatively shorter tail to Phantom. It took quite a bit of adjusting to as I also changed sizes.

Sam L · Jul 14, 2019

I was going to say also I love the long tail when I got used to it. I don’t know it makes me feel like I need to sit back on the blade more but it’s a nice feeling?

tstop4me · Jul 14, 2019

Sam L said:
I was going to say also I love the long tail when I got used to it. I don’t know it makes me feel like I need to sit back on the blade more but it’s a nice feeling?

I have the Paramount version of the Gold Seal. It has a longer tail than my previous blades (Eclipse Aurora and Wilson Coronation Ace). The longer tail has really helped with my backward skating. Now when my coach shouts out, "Lean back, use your whole blade!", I have no concern about falling over (besides the longer tail, the change from a 7' to an 8' main rocker also helps in the extra stability, I think). The only initial neg was I needed to adjust my T-stops: my rear (crossed) blade would click across the top of the longer tail of the front blade. But since the Paramount has an aluminum chassis, no damage to the rear blade (aluminum is a lot softer than stainless steel). I soon learned to readjust my rear foot position so that no longer happened.

JSM · Jul 16, 2019

I’ve skated on phantoms (as a kid), Gold seals (currently), and have a pair of pattern 99s (unmounted). All are 9 inch blades. IMO, looking at them side by side, patterns do have a shorter tail than the other two. Gold seals have noticeably the highest stanchions. Phantoms have the most aggressive toe pick.

I spin better on the gold seals, but I do miss my phantoms for jumps!

Sam L · Jul 16, 2019

JSM said:
I’ve skated on phantoms (as a kid), Gold seals (currently), and have a pair of pattern 99s (unmounted). All are 9 inch blades. IMO, looking at them side by side, patterns do have a shorter tail than the other two. Gold seals have noticeably the highest stanchions. Phantoms have the most aggressive toe pick.

I spin better on the gold seals, but I do miss my phantoms for jumps!

What’s the benefit of higher stanchions and what’s the benefit of more aggressive toe picks? I’m currently on Phantoms and I love them and Gold Seals are the only other blades I would ever consider switching to although I’ve never been in them.

Ic3Rabbit · Jul 16, 2019

Sam L said:
What’s the benefit of higher stanchions and what’s the benefit of more aggressive toe picks? I’m currently on Phantoms and I love them and Gold Seals are the only other blades I would ever consider switching to although I’ve never been in them.

Higher stanchions: Faux deeper edges.

More aggressive toe picks: JUMPS and footwork.

tstop4me · Jul 17, 2019

Ic3Rabbit said:
Higher stanchions: Faux deeper edges.

More aggressive toe picks: JUMPS and footwork.

<<Emphasis added.>> Could you please clarify what you mean by faux deeper edges (in distinction to, I presume, genuine deeper edges)? Thanks.

Ic3Rabbit · Jul 17, 2019

tstop4me said:
<<Emphasis added.>> Could you please clarify what you mean by faux deeper edges (in distinction to, I presume, genuine deeper edges)? Thanks.

When you know proper technique and have truly learned and practiced deeper edges, you do, and you also have a skill not many have anymore. AKA: Chan, Abbott, etc

Faux would be ones that are provided and masked by having a helper...this example being higher stanchions which will force you to have deep edges, but not really. AKA: Your edges will be "deeper" but you won't be Patrick Chan.

Capisce?

ETA: I am not saying this rudely or to be judgemental, nor am I calling anyone out(and would appreciated the same in return). I simply answered the question I was asked with the knowledge and experience I have with the blade and knowing competitive skaters and pros that use the Gold Seal blade.

Bill S · Jul 17, 2019

Regardless of whether my edges are "Faux" or not, I wouldn't mind higher stanchions on my next pair of blades. Here's what happens to my boots with standard height stanchions....

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boot_bevel_text.jpg

I get this wear mostly on under-pushes during crossovers when the inside leg is stretched out behind me. When I get new boots and the bevel hasn't developed yet, the side of it touches the ice and lifts the blade off the ice. That results in a few falls before the boot wears in.

BTW, the photo makes the boots look very wide. They are bog-standard Medium width Riedells, with the blade mounted dead center.

sandraskates · Jul 17, 2019

Bill S said:
Regardless of whether my edges are "Faux" or not, I wouldn't mind higher stanchions on my next pair of blades. Here's what happens to my boots with standard height stanchions....

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boot_bevel_text.jpg

I get this wear mostly on under-pushes during crossovers when the inside leg is stretched out behind me. When I get new boots and the bevel hasn't developed yet, the side of it touches the ice and lifts the blade off the ice. That results in a few falls before the boot wears in.

Interesting! I have Phantom blades and I get the same wear on my boots. Just never equated it with stanchion height; never thought much about it.

Sam L · Jul 20, 2019

Ic3Rabbit said:
Higher stanchions: Faux deeper edges.

More aggressive toe picks: JUMPS and footwork.

Thanks. What if you build your edges and basic skating skills and then move to Gold Seals for that spin rocker?

sandraskates · Jul 20, 2019

Sam L said:
Thanks. What if you build your edges and basic skating skills and then move to Gold Seals for that spin rocker?

I'm sure there are various opinions but here's my experience: I wore and loved Gold Seals for years. I came by my Phantoms because they were a good deal I couldn't pass up. Took me a little while to get used to the spin rocker but once I did, I could (and still can) spin easily.

You may decide that whatever blade you're wearing works for you. . .and *that* is what matters the most!

Pattern 99 v. Phantom: Shorter tail or optical illusion?

Sibelius

tstop4me

Sibelius

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~

Sibelius

tstop4me

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Sibelius

Sam L

Sam L

tstop4me

JSM

Sam L

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

tstop4me

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Bill S

sandraskates

Sam L

sandraskates

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