"Inevitable" Winners vs. Rule Changes | Golden Skate

"Inevitable" Winners vs. Rule Changes

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Where there is a skater or team touted or feared as an "inevitable" winner, there is so often a rule change that makes them not so inevitable.

We had a thread recently which asked the question,
"Can anyone challenge Papadakis and Cizeron?"

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...nge-Papadakis-and-Cizeron&highlight=Papadakis

We have also had threads debating which skaters were GOATs. Especially in those threads, posters had to adjust their arguments based not only the state of the sport when old time greats skated, but to the different rules in place in those different times. Usually, people think that the new rules were the ones to go to.

But IMO, if you can change the rules, you can make any Win less inevitable.

I think it might be worthwhile to consider which & whether any of our GOAT prospects could beat those greats of the past under their own rules, rather than just transporting the old timers to today's rules, and comparing those
.
An example:
Nobody has ever done figures as well as Trixie Schuba. Trixie's traces were so deep and so on top of each other that she would displace her last trace a bit so she would not trip in the rut she made. Furthermore, Compulsory figures were worth 50% of the grade in 1972, and your scores, not your placings, were added up. Trixie was able to win with overwhelmingly high figures scores and a 9th place free skate.

Triple jumps were so little valued that although Janet Lynn could do a triple toe, she never bothered to add it to her routine.

The short program was added so that if Trixie returned to skating,she would not win. Furthermore, ordinals were accumulated, not scores, so that you could not really run up the scores in the figures. The hope was that good free skaters, like Janet Lynn, would benefit by the change.

But When better jumpers arrived, they were limited by the Zayak rule too.

The men had similar rules.

Good free skaters, like Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were held way down in the rankings till figures were abolished in the 1990-1991 season.

When our current judging system was first proposed, quadsters like Tim Goebel were penalized by weighting PCS scores higher.


So I ask you, a couple of things. What rules would you make to assure your favs in any discipline, have a better chance of winning?

Who do you think has a chance of beating Trixie at her own game?

And how would you change the rules to disadvantage P&C?
 
Last edited:

Lamente Ariane

Skating Skills -5, Fashion +3, Camp +4
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
I don't know if it would take a rule change to disadvantage P/C so much as a rival team whose strengths were P/C's weaknesses. That was how V/M beat them in the 2016-17 season, by being so good at the SD (P/C's usual weak point particularly that season) that they were far enough ahead that P/C couldn't catch them in the free. That said I do think if the Tango Romantica pattern had been weighed higher in the scores last season we would have at the very least seen some other teams scored far closer to P/C, while making it so GOE can outbalance the technical panel's assessment of the patterns is an advantage not just to P/C but teams with a reputation.

So I guess I contradict myself-- there was a point where it was possible to beat P/C based on nailing the SD/RD, but right now I think the rules make that harder to achieve.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I don't know if it would take a rule change to disadvantage P/C so much as a rival team whose strengths were P/C's weaknesses. That was how V/M beat them in the 2016-17 season, by being so good at the SD (P/C's usual weak point particularly that season) that they were far enough ahead that P/C couldn't catch them in the free. That said I do think if the Tango Romantica pattern had been weighed higher in the scores last season we would have at the very least seen some other teams scored far closer to P/C, while making it so GOE can outbalance the technical panel's assessment of the patterns is an advantage not just to P/C but teams with a reputation.

So I guess I contradict myself-- there was a point where it was possible to beat P/C based on nailing the SD/RD, but right now I think the rules make that harder to achieve.

And if the pattern had been fairly judged and scored throughout the season.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
to beat PC : bring the CD back... reward teams with harder lifts, in other words, not everyone gets a level 4 anymore.... and all these CHOREO moves that are worth only 1 point, but can score + 5 in GOE : get rid of them ... this is really where PC rack up the points.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I think enforcement of rules also matters in this discussion.

Prior to 2007/2008ish (maybe someone else can provide a more exact time), URs and incorrect edges were rarely penalized. It is my understanding that while there were rules to penalize these mistakes, they were rarely used.

When the rules started to be enforced more strictly, it had a major impact on skaters like Mao Asada and several American ladies, who ended up having to re-work their technique but were never really able to get it quite right over the course of their long careers. Meanwhile, ladies with more correct technique, like Yuna Kim, benefited from this. This was the biggest factor in the Mao versus Yuna rivalry, IMO. Mao had the 3A, but Yuna had fully-rotated 3-3s.

Anyway.....I would not change any rules to disadvantage P/C, because they are my faves ;).

I'm genuinely having trouble thinking of rule changes I would want to see to benefit any of my faves. The rule changes I can think of all have more to do with what I want to see in skating in general (as well as a vague sense of fairness) and less to do with favoring certain skaters over others.

I would love to introduce a third segment of competition that is not unlike figures. Something that measures skating skills more objectively than they are measured in PCS. I don't know what it would be though. I would also like to see quad twists and throws rewarded more highly in pairs - this would benefit Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morozov, and James/Cipres - all of whom have shown they can do a quad of some kind (and two pairs of whom are my faves). It would probably give Scimeca-Knierem/Knierem an edge over Cain/LeDuc; however, I prefer Cain/LeDuc, so from a favoritism standpoint, it doesn't really help my faves.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
So I ask you, a couple of things. What rules would you make to assure your favs in any discipline, have a better chance of winning?
Two rules to assure my favs a better chance of winning/medals (and occasionally to decrease unfairness and reward more difficulty)
1) No tech panel but a technology which can call URs and wrong edges (not exactly a rule).
With that Rika Kihira would have been on worlds podium. Liza Tuktamysheva would have been sent to worlds.
2) Bonus for exceptional jumps/layout
Especially for ladies. Liza Tutk would close a bit the gap in pcs against more artistic ladies who can beat her thanks to pcs.
3) a ceiling of GOE for telegraphed/no transitions quads/3A
So quads/3A with TR would be deservedly rewarded instead of +4/+5 GOEs quads that we see coming from the moon.
So Hanyu when he's on can get comfortably the highest TES.

And how would you change the rules to disadvantage P&C?
I don't really know ice dance. I just watch and enjoy. But one or two seasons ago i was reading that P/C don't have difficult elements. That their tech elements were generally easier but they were etting big GOEs. I don't know if they have more difficult elements now but if not, maybe to increase BV in relation to the difficulty and to lower GOEs would help the other teams.

I think enforcement of rules also matters in this discussion.

Prior to 2007/2008ish (maybe someone else can provide a more exact time), URs and incorrect edges were rarely penalized. It is my understanding that while there were rules to penalize these mistakes, they were rarely used.

When the rules started to be enforced more strictly, it had a major impact on skaters like Mao Asada and several American ladies, who ended up having to re-work their technique but were never really able to get it quite right over the course of their long careers. Meanwhile, ladies with more correct technique, like Yuna Kim, benefited from this. This was the biggest factor in the Mao versus Yuna rivalry, IMO. Mao had the 3A, but Yuna had fully-rotated 3-3s.
.
Yes. I think that without the changes she wouldn't have ditched her 3lz and her 3-3s. She had a shot for the oly gold with her 2006-2008 layouts.
3F-3lo, 3lz, 2A in SP
7 triples FS with those big elements. 3A, 3F-3lo, 3F-3T or 3A, 3F-3lo, 2A-3T

It was weird to do that in the middle of an olympic quad.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
People should remember that the "choreo" moves (twizzles, slide, character step sequence) are the ONLY elements in ID which are not judged by the technical panel.

That alone might be worth its own thread, given how much it affected scoring last season.

And please note how good I am being by not saving "which are [conveniently] NOT judged by the technical panel."

Ok, it's too hot to get me started. I'll leave it at that.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
So I ask you, a couple of things. What rules would you make to assure your favs in any discipline, have a better chance of winning?
I just want a system where:
1) GOE and PCS panels consist of separate people. If that's too much to add 9 people they can merge GOE panel with Technical Panel.
2) GOE is not assigned as a number, but by selecting criteria. Only criteria 50% of judges selected gets taken into account and the number is calculated.
3) Heavy punishments for biased judges. I have seen some judges overscoring skaters from their country by 8-10 poinst and underscoring their competitors by similar amount. These judges still judge at the important events and their scores change the placement drastically (see: Kazakh judge at Worlds and 4CC for example).
4) AI measurements of height, rotation speed, distance, edges, rotation. Expensive - yes, worth it - YES.
 

Seven Sisters

Medalist
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Bring back the Compulsory Dance! That would seriously disrupt the status quo in ice dance.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I enjoyed them.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Honestly I'm not convinced there should be GOE in ice dance at all. Add more specificity to the levels and even break out a few new tiers if needed. We're just throwing level 4s at everything and GOEs do a lot of questionable work. What happened to H/D at 4CC should be happening to plenty of teams way more often for spins, lifts, step sequences, twizzles, and the like.

P/C really should be rewarded less for their lifts compared to some other teams. That's probably one of my larger gripes with how they're scored these days.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Bring back the Compulsory Dance! That would seriously disrupt the status quo in ice dance.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I enjoyed them.

You're not the only one. CD was also my favorite to skate.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Honestly I'm not convinced there should be GOE in ice dance at all. Add more specificity to the levels and even break out a few new tiers if needed. We're just throwing level 4s at everything and GOEs do a lot of questionable work. What happened to H/D at 4CC should be happening to plenty of teams way more often for spins, lifts, step sequences, twizzles, and the like.

P/C really should be rewarded less for their lifts compared to some other teams. That's probably one of my larger gripes with how they're scored these days.

Essentially what that does is open the door for the dance equivalents of Trixie S: technically superb skaters who are uhm uh, well uh, wait give me a moment here, uh, uhm, well uh technically superb. I mean does anyone remember Trixie for anything other than her technical prowess?

And great technique without artistry is like going to a musical and saying, Wow those sets and costumes really could sing!
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Essentially what that does is open the door for the dance equivalents of Trixie S: technically superb skaters who are uhm uh, well uh, wait give me a moment here, uh, uhm, well uh technically superb. I mean does anyone remember Trixie for anything other than her technical prowess?

And great technique without artistry is like going to a musical and saying, Wow those sets and costumes really could sing!

Saying that there shouldn't be GOE isn't the same thing as saying there shouldn't be PCS. And precision in dance is just as important as the artistry. The way that technique has been written off by some teams in favor of showing "passion" is making the valid technical aspects of ice dance illegitimate. Trixi probably should have been an ice dancer.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
So I ask you, a couple of things. What rules would you make to assure your favs in any discipline, have a better chance of winning?

I would make it such that falls are heavily penalized. I would reward the legitimately harder jumping passes. In pairs I'd increase throw values. Not that there is any way of ensuring it but I would also hope that popularity and social media have no bearing or sway on the results of competitions or the judges' positive perception of a particular skater over another skater. The better skater on the day should win - regardless of who fills the most seats or gets the most YouTube hits or who writes the most blog posts saying their fave should win. Officials shouldn't be dissuaded by the potential backlash of putting a deserving, less popular skater ahead of a sloppy, more popular skater.
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
Dodgy scoring due to the influence of more powerful federations would bring penalties, and hefty ones, on the head of the judges and the federations involved.

Oh yes, and the same with blatant home inflation.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
So I ask you, a couple of things. What rules would you make to assure your favs in any discipline, have a better chance of winning?

1. Institute a sliding scale of automatic handicap points based on skater's flag: from +10 for the smallest and poorest federations to -10 for the largest and richest.
2. Double PCS factoring so that it outweighs TES by approximately x2 in each discipline.
3. Substantially decrease penalties for falls and poor jump landings.

As the meerkat says in the annoying ads: simples! :laugh:
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
A special pre-rotation rule for lutz, especially the quad lutz. I can't believe that it became one of the most popular quads. That's because its the easiest quad to cheat. That's why we don't see 4los left and right or even quad flip (though it started to become popular since it's also easy to cheat the rotation).
It won't be an advantage for a particular skater, but at least we won't see so many "4lzs". We should see like just 4 skaters landing that jump.

Only judges from SEA, South America and Australia (i don't know if there are many) should take part to ISU championships. Big feds strong in politicking would lose their leverage on scores.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
to beat PC : bring the CD back... reward teams with harder lifts, in other words, not everyone gets a level 4 anymore.... and all these CHOREO moves that are worth only 1 point, but can score + 3 in GOE : get rid of them ... this is really where PC rack up the points.

P/C deserve to win if they skate the best! There is no penalty for the fact they seem to lack range in the free dance. Though I still find they are marked too generously At the Olympics they struggled in the SD - yes the wardro malfunction caused all sorts of issues but it should have been reflected in lower marks. Likewise I find Gabby not Guillaume's equal and that too should be reflected but I think at lest in 2018 their PCS were too high compared to Virtue and Moir. I wish them super well but the judges can mark them lower if they choose legitimately but chose not too.
 

WednesdayMarch

Nicer When Fed
Medalist
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Country
United-Kingdom
Bring back the Compulsory Dance! That would seriously disrupt the status quo in ice dance.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I enjoyed them.

Absolutely! That way all the dancers start with a very level playing field. And a lot of people enjoyed them, me included.
 
Top