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No no no! You’ve got it all wrong. We all came to a collective agreement that the ACTUAL GOATs are the ones featured in this video. :yes:
Will Nathan Chen become the best skater ever in mens singles?
- Thread starter rockmypark
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No no no! You’ve got it all wrong. We all came to a collective agreement that the ACTUAL GOATs are the ones featured in this video. :yes:
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You sure wrote a long post for someone who's so very unexceptional and you have absolutely zero opinions of. Maybe you should do what I do for 99.9999% of the posts regarding Hanyu: ignore.
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- Jan 25, 2013
To say Hanyu does twice the work on jumps is absolutely false. A couple extra transitions doesn't mean he's doing twice the work. That is one bullet. If Hanyu chooses to do them with more height and flow he is entitled to but judges give GOE bullet for a certain threshold of quality - not award to the one with the best execution of a particular billet. Hanyu does have arguable the best jump quality but it is not TWICE as difficult. And go watch Chen's most recent programs more closely - there are more transitions into many of his jumping passes than certain folks would ever admit.
There is also not much (unbiased) evidence that Chen has less or more height on his jumps than Hanyu - and clearly Chen has sufficient height and distance to do them cleanly. One virtual height/distance cam analyzing a 3A (which happens to be Hanyu's best jump and one of Chen's worst) doesn't exactly convince me that all of Hanyu's jumps are superior- especially when Chen is landing his (harder) content more consistently as of late. I even think Chen missed his triple axel just one last season whereas Hanyu missed a few? It would have been interesting to see the height that such a cam measured on other jumps they both did at Worlds too, like quads (well, quad toes, to be specific).
I also don't get trying to delegitimize Chen's GP/GPF wins simply because he saved his best for the second half of the season (as many skaters do). Btw Hanyu got a GP gold in a competition where 250 would have won. It would be like delegitimizing Hanyu's first OGM simply because his main contenders like Chan did worse than him and worse than their best. At the end of the day, these guys did enough to win their events even if it wasn't their best skates ever or if their competition wasn't the stiffest.
I also don't know how many times the knee jerk reaction card of he-must-be-still-be-compromised-by-injury-if-he-makes-a-mistake(s) can be played for Hanyu... while he had been off due to injury prior to Worlds, clearly he was ready in competition shape enough to land 3 quads-2 triple axels FS and do one of his best performances ever at Worlds, including a 4T-3A. Hanyu landed 4S cleanly in Worlds practice and simply failed to execute them in his programs. Chen beat him fair and square and by 20 points (and without even doing the 4S he did at WTT). But even if Hanyu had landed his 4S's - it would have still been close (and who knows, maybe had Hanyu gone clean in the FS and scored higher, Chen would have upgraded on the fly with a 4S to help him get more points, which he's done before, or executed his series and 4F better to maximize GOE). Lots of what-ifs, but I look more to what-happened.
On paper, Chen's/Hanyu's current tech content would keep Chen slightly ahead IMO, even after GOE is taken into account. It would be very close but I don't think any (unbiased) person can definitively say Hanyu would beat Chen who has clearly not just been bringing more firepower but actually executing his jumps better each time (see: his GOE increasing) whether certain people care to acknowledge it or not. Add the fact that Chen has improved his choreo and performance level, Hanyu has lost his PCS buffer. So Chen has the advantage in many respects.
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Empty? Underperformed? He did a quad loop, and two back half quad toes including the first ever 4T-3A. And also did a 4S that he eked out and URed but still essentially a quad. He pulled 110 TES and scored a personal best on the season, and over 300 points (the highest of the season for any skater other than Chen). I get that for some people Hanyu performing anything less than perfect (slash not getting a PB) and/or that results in a loss is to them a below-standard terrible performance but come on. His FS at Worlds was a lights out performance that owned the competition up until that point. And then Chen did better.
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You are misreading. My comment was about the artistry, and the program as performed at Worlds was lacking the typical fullness of his programs choreographically.
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Maybe because this thread is suggesting a different skater as a potential GOAT it is considered a different thread?
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Can we please close this thread as this is an obviously troll attempt to stir up controversy with no particular meaningful outcome otherwise? I seriously thought OP has opted for their sarcasm meal at that day.
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- Jun 21, 2014
I don't think it's more of a knee jerk reaction than just acknowledging that his rythm throughout the season was interrupted due to an outside circunstance. Of course after a period off ice It's necessary to rebuild stamina and it can also take a toll mentally with thoughts that you aren't prepared quite enough. Although we'll never know how it played off in his case since he does have experience in dealing with similar injuries and any thought on it is speculation, apparently he managed it well. We could also say that about several athletes with other reasons that don't really get publicized but his injury was well known hence the comments we get. There's also the possibility that multiple ligament injuries can decrease long term an athlete's performance level but I'm not sure if there's any studies about it in regards to skating. In his case it will probably mean at least adjustments in training management to avoid reinjury.
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To stay on topic, I do think Nathan could be considered a candidate for 'greatest' in the future considering that he hopefully isn't even halfway into his senior career. This virtual list is about adding names afterall although opinions on it will always vary, it's never an easy topic to discuss.
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- Mar 9, 2018
I a not one of those that like to play what-if could have on Chen's win in World 2019 - he skated clean and he won. Hanyu had two major mistakes and he lost. Period, nothing hard to admit about that.
But what I find funny is that some fans, not just here, but at other places too, have to insist the Hanyu was clean, did one of his best performance ever and was not compromised by injury at World 2019, when:
1. You can easily open the protocol and you will see Yuzu did not skate his LP clean
2. Since it wasn't clean, it obviously isn't one of his best performance ever. You only need to look at the marks of the couple of Seimeis and Hope & Legacy previously to understand Origin at Worlds was not near his best. It is not that hard to translate the old marks into the new system since you just need to adjust the BV and extrapolate the GOEs. People had already done that, and for example Hanyu's GPF 2015 would get higher marks under the new system even after taking a jump out.
3. The impact of injury is not necessarily whether Yuzu was feeling pain on the day, but the combination of many things. It is no mystery that practice and competition are two different things - you can land jumps in a practice but not necessarily in competition - hence why competition experience with a particular program is important. What the injury cause is loss of familiarity on two new programs due to losing half a season, as well as the opportunity to flesh out the program further after receiving judge feedbacks at each competition. And when you return from injury, you don't just pick up from when you last competed. The skater pretty much have to go back to the beginning to build muscles, return the jumps starting from singles and doubles.
Also journalists pointed out that Hanyu clearly changed the way he took off for his jumps to protect his ankles during Worlds - in other words he could not jump the usual way he do precisely because he was injured. Even Joseph Phan said in an interview later that Hanyu was in a terrible physical shape going into Worlds (regardless of what Hanyu said to the press before the competition - He always say he is ready for every competition. he will never say how injured he is till after the fact - He even told people he was fine before RoC LP last year!). Reason why Hanyu can still stay on the podium even when injured is because he is really strong skater. But just because he reached the podium doesn't mean he wasn't compromised by injury.
But what I find funny is that some fans, not just here, but at other places too, have to insist the Hanyu was clean, did one of his best performance ever and was not compromised by injury at World 2019, when:
1. You can easily open the protocol and you will see Yuzu did not skate his LP clean
2. Since it wasn't clean, it obviously isn't one of his best performance ever. You only need to look at the marks of the couple of Seimeis and Hope & Legacy previously to understand Origin at Worlds was not near his best. It is not that hard to translate the old marks into the new system since you just need to adjust the BV and extrapolate the GOEs. People had already done that, and for example Hanyu's GPF 2015 would get higher marks under the new system even after taking a jump out.
3. The impact of injury is not necessarily whether Yuzu was feeling pain on the day, but the combination of many things. It is no mystery that practice and competition are two different things - you can land jumps in a practice but not necessarily in competition - hence why competition experience with a particular program is important. What the injury cause is loss of familiarity on two new programs due to losing half a season, as well as the opportunity to flesh out the program further after receiving judge feedbacks at each competition. And when you return from injury, you don't just pick up from when you last competed. The skater pretty much have to go back to the beginning to build muscles, return the jumps starting from singles and doubles.
Also journalists pointed out that Hanyu clearly changed the way he took off for his jumps to protect his ankles during Worlds - in other words he could not jump the usual way he do precisely because he was injured. Even Joseph Phan said in an interview later that Hanyu was in a terrible physical shape going into Worlds (regardless of what Hanyu said to the press before the competition - He always say he is ready for every competition. he will never say how injured he is till after the fact - He even told people he was fine before RoC LP last year!). Reason why Hanyu can still stay on the podium even when injured is because he is really strong skater. But just because he reached the podium doesn't mean he wasn't compromised by injury.
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In the Ice Time Podcast interview with Jack Gallagher in late June, Nathan said the any of the top ten men could be on top of the podium.
In a TV interview with Dream On Ice late June, Nathan heaped praises on Yuzuru as always, and mentioned that he grew up with Shoma and Vincent, all of them could be on top of the podium on any given day.
Speaking of Nathan’s progress last season, Nathan had a hard time balancing full course load at Yale and skating on his own in the beginning of the season, on top of that, he was dealing sickness most of the time. He stated that there will be harder time in the future both with school and skating in the interviews after SkAm. He probably didn’t figure out how to balance the two until late the first semester.
Nathan spent not more than 3 weeks with Raf during winter break. He spent about a week’s time in Gadbois to polish his program before coming back SoCal. Hence there was this dramatic improvement at Nationals. He didn’t get the planned brush up with a Raf before worlds due to sickness, he has been sick right after Nationals. But still he was able to somewhat maintain his level from the Nationals. He had to change to 4lz in his sp because his 4f was not consistent.
Both Yuzuru and Nathan were dealing with difficulties/challenges of their own this past season. Both of them were remarkable in overcoming those challenges. If you are assuming what Yuzuru will achieve if he stays healthy, then please also consider the scenario Nathan would train with Raf on a regular basis. While Raf was really happy and proud of what Nathan has done last season, Nathan was never at his level at Champs Camp last August, that is why Raf was not satisfied with his performances at Nationals.
This is the first time I came across topics about the possibility of Nathan becoming best skater ever. Nathan fans don’t even know if he would continue skating after Beijing Olympics. They would probably be more interested to know when he is going to leave school and go back to train with Raf on a daily basis to prepare for Beijing.
Can this thread be closed?
In a TV interview with Dream On Ice late June, Nathan heaped praises on Yuzuru as always, and mentioned that he grew up with Shoma and Vincent, all of them could be on top of the podium on any given day.
Speaking of Nathan’s progress last season, Nathan had a hard time balancing full course load at Yale and skating on his own in the beginning of the season, on top of that, he was dealing sickness most of the time. He stated that there will be harder time in the future both with school and skating in the interviews after SkAm. He probably didn’t figure out how to balance the two until late the first semester.
Nathan spent not more than 3 weeks with Raf during winter break. He spent about a week’s time in Gadbois to polish his program before coming back SoCal. Hence there was this dramatic improvement at Nationals. He didn’t get the planned brush up with a Raf before worlds due to sickness, he has been sick right after Nationals. But still he was able to somewhat maintain his level from the Nationals. He had to change to 4lz in his sp because his 4f was not consistent.
Both Yuzuru and Nathan were dealing with difficulties/challenges of their own this past season. Both of them were remarkable in overcoming those challenges. If you are assuming what Yuzuru will achieve if he stays healthy, then please also consider the scenario Nathan would train with Raf on a regular basis. While Raf was really happy and proud of what Nathan has done last season, Nathan was never at his level at Champs Camp last August, that is why Raf was not satisfied with his performances at Nationals.
This is the first time I came across topics about the possibility of Nathan becoming best skater ever. Nathan fans don’t even know if he would continue skating after Beijing Olympics. They would probably be more interested to know when he is going to leave school and go back to train with Raf on a daily basis to prepare for Beijing.
Can this thread be closed?
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- Dec 25, 2012
Ignoring the bait of the first post that's trying to pit fans against each other, the question is simple.
Will Nathan become the best ever male skater?
This is asking fans to make a prediction. There is no wrong answer until the future becomes the past and Nathan decides to move on from competition.
Yes
No
Maybe
Impossble to predict
Your choice
Or perhaps the thread is really redundant, and for such a promising skater who has everything ahead of him, it's best to sit back and enjoy the ride without making a prediction.
Will Nathan become the best ever male skater?
This is asking fans to make a prediction. There is no wrong answer until the future becomes the past and Nathan decides to move on from competition.
Yes
No
Maybe
Impossble to predict
Your choice
Or perhaps the thread is really redundant, and for such a promising skater who has everything ahead of him, it's best to sit back and enjoy the ride without making a prediction.
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When you say it like this, Yuzuru not winning the FS is weird. Thought he was better than Chen that day, at least in that segment.
Here we go again. Thanks for the many accusations that you throw in that posts. I was missing that fire.
I didn't deligitimize any win of Chen and you know it. If that's your definition of deligitimizing a win, right.
Saying with sublety that i'm biased is very class of you. I'm a biased fan who says that Yuzu is less consistent than Chen (and apparently it's a crime to try to explain why), i said in other parts of this forum that Chen totally deserve his WC and was incredible, i'm not against saying that someone is better than Yuzu like i did in the best skater per quad thread for example.
And yes EVERY person who think that Hanyu would beat Chen if clean is biased..... Like the guy scored 110 in SP with one iffy landing early in the season, scored 206 with an LP that had an Ured quad and less than perfect landings. And apparently thinking that he could score way higher and finished ahead with two clean performances is stupid and comes only from a biased outlook of the skater or the competition. How strange to think that if Chen can match his best score in LP from the previous SoV with lower tech content, Hanyu can at least match his best score with the same tech content.
I just will finish by saying: You're free to read what you want to read.
Time to start the absolute champion matches and let them square off on ice to settle the endless quarrels of GOAT and BEST– s/he who wins the most Absolute Champion titles is the best of her/his generation.
No no no! You’ve got it all wrong. We all came to a collective agreement that the ACTUAL GOATs are the ones featured in this video. :yes:
:rofl2: thanks.
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- Jan 11, 2008
This thread is closed, because you guys all requested it be closed.
However, if you thought it was a troll post, you should not have replied to it.
Just because someone yells, "Fight, fight, fight," it does not mean you have to fight.
However, if you thought it was a troll post, you should not have replied to it.
Just because someone yells, "Fight, fight, fight," it does not mean you have to fight.
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