Confidence in Your Boots?

I visited Sp-Teri yesterday, without my skater so she couldn't defend herself in our discussion. They reiterated how stiff her current Jackson Debut Fusion boots are. Jackson has updated their recommendations, and for her weight the Debuts are rated for doubles now. Sp-Teri is recommending that she stay in them another year. She, of course, disagrees and wants to move up to the Premiere. Whether it's a ploy or not (she is 11) when I ask about whether she feels that her current boots can take her through doubles she demurs. She says she doesn't think they're going to hold up much past what she's working on now (2S, 2T, 2Lo and started 2F last week) insisting that they'd never hold her on 2Lz or 2A. It could be that I just don't know what questions to ask to get at the truth, but I ask about support and ankles and knees. She's been in them almost a year and there's not a mark or sign of break down at all. All the techs I've communicated with say that until she breaks a pair down they're fine.

I guess the question is, if she's just not confident in them (even if the reality is that they're fine) is that more important than any of the specs, recommendations, opinions etc.? I don't skate, and it didn't dawn on me until talking with her last night when I told her what they had recommended and she just started to cry a bit that maybe she just doesn't trust them. Sp-Teri is not a fan of really stiff boots for young skaters, and frankly at our rink we've had some injuries (stress fractures) and those skaters were all in Edea boots (Ice Fly). Anecdata I know, coincidence probably, but the old school philosophy (Harlick, Sp-Teri) is that overbooting is still bad for younger skaters, but the "new market philosophy" is light and stiff. Seems I'm caught between and don't know which way to err. Coach is not a fan of stiff either having been in Sp-Teri's since she was 8. At this point I'm leaning towards having a mildly(from 45/50 - 65 rating) overbooted but confident skater, especially as she progresses to 2A.

The most important question is, how much does your daughter weigh? That's mostly why Jackson made that new chart. I myself am in Jackson Debut Fusions, and I am a complete beginner (Basic 2-3). But I also weigh 170 lbs. I have done SO much reading and research about boots in the last few months, honestly for what the average 11 year old skater weighs, it's really hard to imagine putting one in Premieres.

But there is also a thing about skater preference, and that's a big deal. That's fine that your coach loves Sp-Teri's, but she's not the one skating now. Some people just really prefer stiffer boots. The new Jackson guide is pretty accurate, from all I've heard and read (although they need to add a category of skaters over 150 lbs). I would say, if your daughter is still growing well, if she's already over 100 lbs, I'd consider getting Premieres soon. Under 100 lbs?? (and Jackson's cutoff is 115 lbs) - no way.

(Note: None of this is meant to offend).

If your daughter is not usually the over dramatic type and she is crying over these current boots and saying she needs stiffer and they aren't going to hold her (has no confidence in current boots) then I would forget about what the coach and SP Teri is saying and take her to try Jackson Premiers. She may be like many of us who prefer a stiffer boot.

Again, this does also (as you know) depend on her weight and skill level.

Honestly, I would hate to see her get a too stiff boot and risk injury. But I would also hate to see her have a boot that doesn't work for her and she's not confident is going to hold up (as skaters we can tell and we know). And then she'd get injured if they let out on a 2Lz or 2A, because they may be breaking down and one cannot tell from visual exam(Usually one can but there are times we cannot), but the skater can feel it. I have had this happen to me in the past with a few pairs of boots.

I wish you luck.

If she's been in them for a year and is working on all those doubles, might she just need a new pair of Debuts? It's not always visible when a boot has broken down or is starting to.

What were the injuries others at your rink experienced? What were the circumstances?

My skater started doubles in Jacksons, moved to Edea Chorus and is now in his 2nd pair of Edeas still finishing out the doubles (Lutz is about 50/50 right now and 2A is under-rotated). He's 9 and weighs about 85 pounds. He does double-double combos in Chorus boots. His skates last him about 9 months due to growth. No injuries (thank goodness!) He also didn't take any time to 'break in' his 2nd pair of Edeas. They were the same boot style, different blade, slightly bigger. His first pair took very little time to break in.

When he first started doubles I could tell he was scared. I suggested butt pads. He didn't like the ones I got. I got different ones. He wore those and it made ALL the difference. So what I'm saying is... confidence in your equipment - whether you need it or not - seems like a big deal in skating. They say it's half mental.

She's not a drama queen at all. I really think THE problem is that when we bought her first pair (this is her second) they were rated by Jackson for "single jumps". EVERYONE agrees now (Jackson included) they were severely underrated at their introduction. So, she's thinking Axel (which was last summer) = new boots for both "reward" I don't want a third pair, and necessity, 2Lz, 2A. I think at this point the mental aspect is the biggest issue. Isn't every flex or movement going go into her head on the next attempt? Not being a skater or athlete it's seems that's what it would be for me. She is in between the weight recs. for the next boot, in fact I doubt she'll ever reach the top of that range! Both her coach and I notice she's getting more power and height lately so that might just mean she could handle the stiffer boot. And, as pointed out above there are those who simply prefer stiffer boots. She had no break in going from her soft Elles to these, and the jump in stiffness would be similar. I probably have until September after her last competition for the year, but that's going to be lots of practice hours, so maybe in those hours the answer will emerge. I tried the blade offer (bribe) again, but she's not biting on it this time.

VegMom said:

What were the injuries others at your rink experienced? What were the circumstances?

My skater started doubles in Jacksons, moved to Edea Chorus and is now in his 2nd pair of Edeas still finishing out the doubles (Lutz is about 50/50 right now and 2A is under-rotated). He's 9 and weighs about 85 pounds. He does double-double combos in Chorus boots. His skates last him about 9 months due to growth. No injuries (thank goodness!) He also didn't take any time to 'break in' his 2nd pair of Edeas. They were the same boot style, different blade, slightly bigger. His first pair took very little time to break in.

When he first started doubles I could tell he was scared. I suggested butt pads. He didn't like the ones I got. I got different ones. He wore those and it made ALL the difference. So what I'm saying is... confidence in your equipment - whether you need it or not - seems like a big deal in skating. They say it's half mental.

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Two foot stress fractures and one damage knee (don't know the circumstances of that one). Your son's Chorus looks like it's rated the same as the Jackson Premiere that we're looking at. She's 11 and about the same weight so they're of similar size. Pads, yeah I bought some that cost a fortune, she refuses to wear them. She has no fear, at all, that's one of the reasons I think I'd just go with the stiffer boots-I don't want fear to enter her mind because she's doubting her boots. She also had no break in issues going from her lower level Jacksons to her current ones, and hopefully the next ones.

Sibelius said:

She's not a drama queen at all. I really think THE problem is that when we bought her first pair (this is her second) they were rated by Jackson for "single jumps". EVERYONE agrees now (Jackson included) they were severely underrated at their introduction. So, she's thinking Axel (which was last summer) = new boots for both "reward" I don't want a third pair, and necessity, 2Lz, 2A. I think at this point the mental aspect is the biggest issue. Isn't every flex or movement going go into her head on the next attempt? Not being a skater or athlete it's seems that's what it would be for me. She is in between the weight recs. for the next boot, in fact I doubt she'll ever reach the top of that range! Both her coach and I notice she's getting more power and height lately so that might just mean she could handle the stiffer boot. And, as pointed out above there are those who simply prefer stiffer boots. She had no break in going from her soft Elles to these, and the jump in stiffness would be similar. I probably have until September after her last competition for the year, but that's going to be lots of practice hours, so maybe in those hours the answer will emerge. I tried the blade offer (bribe) again, but she's not biting on it this time.

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Honestly, reading everything the difference in stiffness between the boot she's currently in and the Premiere is about 15 in stiffness rating from 50 to 65 with the premiere. I'd have her go try the Premiere and get them. You've said she'd already been in her current boot for a year or so and they're probably breaking down whether it appears or not, and if she's not confident/comfortable in them then that's a bad thing for a skater.

I wish your daughter and yourself much luck and hope to hear she is happy in her boots and doing 2Lz and 2A's soon!

Ic3Rabbit said:

Honestly, reading everything the difference in stiffness between the boot she's currently in and the Premiere is about 15 in stiffness rating from 50 to 65 with the premiere. I'd have her go try the Premiere and get them. You've said she'd already been in her current boot for a year or so and they're probably breaking down whether it appears or not, and if she's not confident/comfortable in them then that's a bad thing for a skater.

I wish your daughter and yourself much luck and hope to hear she is happy in her boots and doing 2Lz and 2A's soon!

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Thanks. She'll be happy at your recommendation. I think it's the way to go, just needed some rationalization. I hope we don't get too much pushback from her fitter.

Update:

Spoke with her coach and she tried her best to draw out what's going on. Still sounds more mental than anything, doesn't feel enough support on 2t and 2f. Agrees that if it's in her head we have to move on. The good news is that Jackson has adjusted the blade sizing. The 2000 Fusion series for her current size 3 1/2 Debut required an 8 3/4" blade (it fits toe to heel) and we can either keep that for her new Premieres, or get a new 9" for a half size up 4 that will last through 2 boot sizes, same blade on 4 and 5, though on the size 5 it wouldn't be toe to heel, but would have a 1/4" gap (that's how we used to have them mounted). So, there's the juicy rationalization that helps the decision.

Of all the things that could be in someone's head, "my boots don't give me enough support for the next few jumps" sounds oddly concrete and specific not to be real. After a year at her level, they're probably breaking down, and if she doesn't need the Premieres, then she probably needs new, not-broken-down Debuts.

Does her coach know how long she's had that pair? Maybe the coach mistakenly thinks she got new boots when she got new blades?

hanyuufan5 said:

Of all the things that could be in someone's head, "my boots don't give me enough support for the next few jumps" sounds oddly concrete and specific not to be real. After a year at her level, they're probably breaking down, and if she doesn't need the Premieres, then she probably needs new, not-broken-down Debuts.

Does her coach know how long she's had that pair? Maybe the coach mistakenly thinks she got new boots when she got new blades?

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It took both of us pretty intense grilling to get that answer, and coach says she doesn't see it when she jumps. Coach knows how long she's had them, they have been inspected by Sp-Teri and they are not broken down at all. She has had trouble in the past with lacing tight enough, but that's in the past now both coach and I think. We're both resolved to the new Premieres. She's worked hard and deserves them, her coach is not concerned with the additional stiffness at this point. The confidence is more important. Still considering blade options for now, but the boot choice is made (assuming they fit of course!)

I have the Freestyles which are similar in style and construction. I have to tell you that they don't look broken down at all on the outside. However, when I'm doing axels and doubles in them I can feel that they aren't supporting my ankle like they used to. But on the outside they look fine. Anecdotal I know, but I guess I can sympathize with your daughter!

Sibelius said:

She's worked hard and deserves them, her coach is not concerned with the additional stiffness at this point. The confidence is more important. Still considering blade options for now, but the boot choice is made (assuming they fit of course!)

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That's the valid reason to me. Your daughter will most likely be all right now that she feels validated.

Sibelius said:

It took both of us pretty intense grilling to get that answer, and coach says she doesn't see it when she jumps. Coach knows how long she's had them, they have been inspected by Sp-Teri and they are not broken down at all. She has had trouble in the past with lacing tight enough, but that's in the past now both coach and I think. We're both resolved to the new Premieres. She's worked hard and deserves them, her coach is not concerned with the additional stiffness at this point. The confidence is more important. Still considering blade options for now, but the boot choice is made (assuming they fit of course!)

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<<Emphasis added.>>

Edwin said:

That's the valid reason to me. Your daughter will most likely be all right now that she feels validated.

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Funny, but I had the opposite reaction when I first read that line. So, the skater gets new boots not because she needs them (according to her fitter and coach, and the skater herself is not clear on that issue); but because she wants new boots, and she gets new boots as a reward?

tstop4me said:

<<Emphasis added.>>





[FONT=&]Funny, but I had the opposite reaction when I first read that line. So, the skater gets new boots not because she needs them (according to her fitter and coach, and the skater herself is not clear on that issue); but because she wants new boots, and she gets new boots as a reward? [/FONT]

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A bit more complicated than that. I promised them to her when she started doubles, because that's what the recommendation from Jackson was at the time. So, for almost an entire year (they literally updated the recs. in a FB post on June 26th) the assumption was she needed new boots for doubles (at least the higher ones). It was only when we talked to Sp-Teri (right before Jackson's update) and I asked some of Jackson's recommended techs, that we were told she could use them up to 2A. An 11 year old doesn't change their mindset that quickly, combined with her sense (valid or not) that they aren't supporting her. Would you want to start learning double flip, Lutz, and Axel without confidence in your boots, no matter what WE (Dad, coach, fitter) say? She's the one wearing them every day doing 10+ jumps each (2s, 2t, 2f, 2Lo, plus singles warm ups). I'm not going to discount what she's feeling in them.

My concern was too stiff too soon. I've been advised by the Jackson techs that it's not that drastic a change, and if she tries them on and has good knee bend and toe point she'll be fine after some break in. Luckily we can get them early enough that she can still work in her old boots and break the new ones in slowly if necessary. So, once competition season ends we will do just that, try them on and see.

And, by the way, what's wrong with a reward/motivation for an 11 year old who gets up at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m. gets to the rink for practice before school, after school, and on Saturdays and Sundays as well?

Nimyue said:

I have the Freestyles which are similar in style and construction. I have to tell you that they don't look broken down at all on the outside. However, when I'm doing axels and doubles in them I can feel that they aren't supporting my ankle like they used to. But on the outside they look fine. Anecdotal I know, but I guess I can sympathize with your daughter!

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Yes, this is another factor. Some people just don't visibly wear out their boots. There was a pair of Yuzuru Hanyu's old skates up for auction, and they almost looked new, not at all like what you'd expect from something presumably worn for an entire season by a skater of his level. Doesn't mean they were still supportive enough.

Nimyue said:

I have the Freestyles which are similar in style and construction. I have to tell you that they don't look broken down at all on the outside. However, when I'm doing axels and doubles in them I can feel that they aren't supporting my ankle like they used to. But on the outside they look fine. Anecdotal I know, but I guess I can sympathize with your daughter!

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That's good to know. I always appreciate anecdotal data points, add them up and what do you get...data! Since they were inspected by Sp-Teri though I would hope they would have noticed if they had softened up and there was something wrong. Decision has been made to at least order new Premieres soon and at least see if she can bend and point in them.

Thanks for this thread. It was both fun and informative, esp. the children's psychology part.

Edwin said:

Thanks for this thread. It was both fun and informative, esp. the children's psychology part.

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Self taught child psychology...well, observational with 2 daughters (complete polar opposites) 17 months apart.