Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

dorispulaski · Jul 26, 2019

Below are a series of posts about the music 15 year old junior skater Moa Iwano of Japan and her choreographer Benoit Richaud have picked for her SP. The posts were made in the "Programs by Discipline" thread.

For those who don't know the songs involved, they were:
"Sinnerman" by Nina Simone (with lyrics):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ovLrvq2do

"Strange Fruit" (Iwano is using the Nina Simone version, not the Billie Holliday version.)
The lyrics used by Nina Simone are here:
https://genius.com/Nina-simone-strange-fruit-lyrics
The Nina Simone version is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvwlPKCfkIM

Golden Skate posters have been discussing where the line lies between following the well-known artistic tradition of representing tragedy and "cultural appropriation/cultural disrespect."

An added issue is whether this song would be appropriate for Starr Andrews, a senior African-American skater, or for any other senior skater?

Is it never appropriate, or inappropriate only for junior skaters, or appropriate only for African American skaters, or always appropriate?

And, would you like to see such a program?

Strange Fruit is explicitly, and graphically, about lynching. For those who do not know the terrible history of lynching in the US,
here is a link to the American Black Holocaust Museum, which memorializes the victims of lynching:
http://abhmuseum.org/category/lynching-victims-memorial/

and a link to the recently opened National Memorial for Peace and Justice:
https://eji.org/national-lynching-memorial

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/25/us/lynching-memorial-alabama.html
Almost 4,400 people of color have been known to be lynched in the US. The last known lynching was of Michael Donald in 1981 in Alabama. This is not ancient history:
https://blackthen.com/michael-donald-last-noted-african-american-man-lynched-by-the-ku-klux-klan/

LINKS TO THE SOURCES FOR THIS PROGRAM, from @rabidline:

Can I make a request for you to add the links of where Moa's programs were announced to the start of the thread (your post)? It can help other GS posters to look up on the sources, and know what the extent of the news covering this program so far. I know it's mentioned in the posts below but it's easy to miss them.

:

- https://twitter.com/AxelQuadruple/st...22600009277445

Quadruple Axel's tweet on 27 July 2019, part of their program reports from the Japanese Junior Camp (held in Chukyo University last week), which is the first time "Strange Fruit" was mentioned (also mentioning Nina Simone). Quadruple Axel is a Japanese figure skating magazine publication, they usually release Japanese Men-focused magazines but they also do figure skating reports in Japan.

- https://twitter.com/sportsjapan/stat...07907101499393

Jack Gallagher's tweet on 8 July 2019, which was earlier and only mentioned Sinnerman for the SP. Jack's a figure skating reporter for The Japan Times.

madraykin · Jul 27, 2019

rabidline said:
Yuna Aoki
Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

And suddenly all the Egyptian/Middle Eastern themed routines seem reasonable.

Who picks these things? Especially for a 15 year old.

elektra blue · Jul 27, 2019

Ichatdelune said:
Sihyeong Lee

SP: Elena & Lila, Last Days by Max Richter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzefh_FOwX8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjWpGDxcVs

:shocked: i didn't realize that this serial could be popular outside of Italy

rabidline said:
Yuna Aoki

Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

FS: "Papa, Can You Hear Me"
Choreo by Benoit Richaud
https://twitter.com/AxelQuadruple/status/1155122600009277445

Mana Kawabe
SP: Music from "Grinch"
Choreo by Cathy Reed

FS: "Black Swan"
Choreo by Cathy Reed
https://twitter.com/AxelQuadruple/status/1155123857197371392

now this could be a hit or miss, i don't know how such a young girl can convey the drama of a song about lynching, but if she can this could be a masterpiece. The Grinch program sounds fun

Colonel Green said:
Iliya Kovler
SP: "Natural" by Imagine Dragons

Debuted at Minto.

love this choice, one of my favourite songs by them!

Sai Bon · Jul 27, 2019

>
Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

What ARE they thinking?!!! Does Moa have any understanding of the lyrics of Strange Fruit? :shocked:
Yes, it's a powerful piece of music, but what relevance does it have to her life experience?
Maybe she is very precocious and chose it herself, but if someone else did, they need their heads examined.

el henry · Jul 27, 2019

Sai Bon said:
>
Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

What ARE they thinking?!!! Does Moa have any understanding of the lyrics of Strange Fruit? :shocked:
Yes, it's a powerful piece of music, but what relevance does it have to her life experience?
Maybe she is very precocious and chose it herself, but if someone else did, they need their heads examined.

This song is up there with Big Spender for me. Like wow. :eek:

And it doesn’t even have the virtue of being peppy music like Big Spender. A song about lynching? that’s not an opera about star crossed lovers, or courtesans, or anything else. It’s about lynching. A whole different level of inappropriate.

I can’t imagine.....

Harriet · Jul 28, 2019

Sai Bon said:
>
Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

What ARE they thinking?!!! Does Moa have any understanding of the lyrics of Strange Fruit? :shocked:
Yes, it's a powerful piece of music, but what relevance does it have to her life experience?
Maybe she is very precocious and chose it herself, but if someone else did, they need their heads examined.

Agreed. I really hope the songs's been incorrectly identified, because a fifteen-year-old girl from a completely different culture skating to an adult woman's song of grief, rage and despair for lynched Black men in the US south would be Domnina/Shabalin levels of inappropriate. I'd expect Richaud to understand that.

And if the song has been correctly identified, I sincerely hope that the inevitable online pushback goes to the adult man in the situation, not the aforementioned fifteen-year-old girl.

rabidline · Jul 28, 2019

Harriet said:
Agreed. I really hope the songs's been incorrectly identified, because a fifteen-year-old girl from a completely different culture skating to an adult woman's song of grief, rage and despair for lynched Black men in the US south would be Domnina/Shabalin levels of inappropriate. I'd expect Richaud to understand that.

And if the song has been correctly identified, I sincerely hope that the inevitable online pushback goes to the adult man in the situation, not the aforementioned fifteen-year-old girl.

Just a heads up, the news came from Quadruple Axel (a Figure Skating magazine publication in Japan) when they did their reporting on this year's Japanese juniors training camp. Moa was there alongside Japan's other top juniors and Quad Axel did a series of tweets reporting their 2019-2020 programs, including Moa's programs.

Earlier in July, Jack Gallagher reported that her SP as "Sinner Man" by Nina Simone, so I think when she competes we'll get a clearer understanding on what her SP music actually consist of. (https://twitter.com/sportsjapan/status/1148207907101499393).

Whatever the SP music ends up being, I agree with Harriet's post on this.

TallyT · Jul 28, 2019

Sai Bon said:
>
Moa Iwano
SP: "Strange Fruit" and "Sinnerman" by Nina Simone
Choreo by Benoit Richaud

What ARE they thinking?!!! Does Moa have any understanding of the lyrics of Strange Fruit? :shocked:
Yes, it's a powerful piece of music, but what relevance does it have to her life experience?

That's.... ugly. Really the ugliest idea I have heard yet. I only hope this is an error, there is no way she can do it without being way more than just deeply offensive.

rabidline said:
Just a heads up, the news came from Quadruple Axel (a Figure Skating magazine publication in Japan) when they did their reporting on this year's Japanese juniors training camp. Moa was there alongside Japan's other top juniors and Quad Axel did a series of tweets reporting their 2019-2020 programs, including Moa's programs.

Earlier in July, Jack Gallagher reported that her SP as "Sinner Man" by Nina Simone, so I think when she competes we'll get a clearer understanding on what her SP music actually consist of. (https://twitter.com/sportsjapan/status/1148207907101499393).

I hope so, will wait and see and keep all fingers crossed that it's either a mistake or someone thinks better....

ruga · Jul 28, 2019

Just read the lyrics of 'Strange Fruit'. And umm... Did her coaching and choreography team even read the lyrics? If so, how are they going to even interpet that? Or did they just decide it's some slow piece with generic lyrics?

dorispulaski · Jul 28, 2019

Worse.By combining it with Sinnerman, it could come out sounding like lynching is ok, and a proper punishment for "sin."

Especially if it starts with Sinnerman,
https://www.lyricsfreak.com/n/nina+simone/sinnerman_20100705.html

followed by Strange Fruit
https://genius.com/Nina-simone-strange-fruit-lyrics

Sai Bon · Jul 28, 2019

Ice Dance said:
Not disagreeing at all.

But do you think a lot of junior skaters have life experience that is relevant to Carmen, Cabaret, Moulin Rouge, etc.?

No, of course not. But the first two are works of fiction with a strong fairytale element. I personally would not choose Cabaret or Moulin Rouge for a skater under 18 even if they are psychologically mature. But you simply can't take "Strange Fruit" out of its historical context and call it a piece of music. The lyrics are in your face and although I have no personal experience of the theme, I have nightmares just imagining it.

Ice Dance · Jul 28, 2019

Sai Bon said:
No, of course not. But the first two are works of fiction with a strong fairytale element. I personally would not choose Cabaret or Moulin Rouge for a skater under 18 even if they are psychologically mature. But you simply can't take "Strange Fruit" out of its historical context and call it a piece of music. The lyrics are in your face and although I have no personal experience of the theme, I have nightmares just imagining it.

I just think it's important to be clear about the reasons one has a concern about the music.

It's not just because the skater isn't likely to share that life experience.

Nor because the theme is so awful. It is awful. But so are prostitution and the holocaust. (There are multiple junior athletes skating to Moulin Rouge and Cabaret this season). Sometimes we go numb to that reaction when we have seen the same piece of music used over and over again.

Sai Bon · Jul 28, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I just think it's important to be clear about the reasons one has a concern about the music.

It's not just because the skater isn't likely to share that life experience.

Nor because the theme is so awful. It is awful. But so are prostitution and the holocaust. (There are multiple junior athletes skating to Moulin Rouge and Cabaret this season). Sometimes we go numb to that reaction when we have seen the same piece of music used over and over again.

ITA. I imagine it's just a case of someone in the skater's team liking the song.
If the skater has a connection to the music in some way and wants to express something through the music and their skating, I am all for it.
I'm not saying that everyone should skate to happy, positive, fluffy unicorns and butterflies kind of music.
But of all the amazing music in the world, why choose a song about lynching (or prostitution or the holocaust) for a junior skater?

Anyway, just my opinion. I am pretty sick of Moulin Rouge and hope something else replaces it as a new warhorse soon!

Lamente Ariane · Jul 28, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I just think it's important to be clear about the reasons one has a concern about the music.

It's not just because the skater isn't likely to share that life experience.

Nor because the theme is so awful. It is awful. But so are prostitution and the holocaust. (There are multiple junior athletes skating to Moulin Rouge and Cabaret this season). Sometimes we go numb to that reaction when we have seen the same piece of music used over and over again.

Er, though the Holocaust is relevant to Cabaret, I don't think the Holocaust's relevance to the songs people usually use from Cabaret is even remotely on the same level as Strange Fruit's connection to lynching. Strange Fruit is about lynching, full stop. That is what the lyrics explicitly detail. It's not like people are skating to Tomorrow Belongs To Me when they skate to Cabaret. There's a different context for the other songs. Schindler's List would be a closer comparison point, though SL doesn't have actual lyrics about gas chambers etc. (That said I'd still like fewer Schindler's List programs)

Harriet · Jul 28, 2019

Lamente Ariane said:
Strange Fruit is about lynching, full stop. That is what the lyrics explicitly detail.

To be more precise, the lyrics literally describe the bodies of hanged men dangling from trees, and the way they smell as they rot in the summer heat. The song is visceral and confronting, deliberately so; in fact it was so confronting that during the Civil Rights era it was banned in many places in the US for some time, and if I'm remembering correctly, Billie Holliday used to get death threats because she refused to stop singing it. (It was always the final song in any concert she gave; before it started the waiters would stop serving and the room or stage would be plunged into darkness, with only one spotlight trained on her face, and she never gave an encore because there was no way to frame that song as just an ordinary part of a concert. Billie Holliday knew exactly how powerful and how important Strange Fruit was, shown by the way she kept singing it like that through death threads, bans and a life-destroying drug addiction, and so did Nina Simone.) It's that context that makes Strange Fruit very different from a movie score, even one on such a confronting topic as the Holocaust. Nobody has yet had to put their life on the line over and over again to perform the score of Schindler's List in the hope that doing so will help to wake up their nation.

If Starr Andrews or Emmanuel Savary (for example) ever decide to skate to it, that will be another matter altogether, but it's so very inappropriate for a skater who isn't African-American to step into that history and try to speak to it - especially one so young and from such a very different culture - that it's hard to articulate.

oly2018 · Jul 28, 2019

Strange Fruit is a hard no for me. The lyrics are explicitly about lynching and I dont understand how nobody at any point thought that it wouldn't be appropriate for just about any skater, let alone a junior.

Ice Dance · Jul 28, 2019

I think those explanations are a lot clearer.

I'm not opposed to skating programs about tragedy, real or fictitious. I think skaters can bring meaning to a performance. And I don't think artists can only connect to programs from within their own culture. Nor do I think they have to tell us their personal connections to a particular story.

But I do think it really helps if an athlete is a strong performer and can do justice to the emotions the music is trying to portray. And you have to do your research. You have to know the history behind your music selection.

Because it's really easy to fall into cultural quicksand. Which seems the likely hazard here.

theharleyquinn · Jul 28, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I think those explanations are a lot clearer.

I'm not opposed to skating programs about tragedy, real or fictitious. I think skaters can bring meaning to a performance. And I don't think artists can only connect to programs from within their own culture. Nor do I think they have to tell us their personal connections to a particular story.

But I do think it really helps if an athlete is a strong performer and can do justice to the emotions the music is trying to portray. And you have to do your research. You have to know the history behind your music selection.

Because it's really easy to fall into cultural quicksand. Which seems the likely hazard here.

I find that these types of songs about injustice/genocide/etc. are often chosen because choreographers believe the songs themselves will somehow elevate the skater's sophistication or artistry just because of the songs' subject matter, and that is incredibly cheap, offensive, and insulting.

believed · Jul 28, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
I find that these types of songs about injustice/genocide/etc. are often chosen because choreographers believe the songs themselves will somehow elevate the skater's sophistication or artistry just because of the songs' subject matter, and that is incredibly cheap, offensive, and insulting.

Yep.

Ice Dance said:
I think those explanations are a lot clearer.

I'm not opposed to skating programs about tragedy, real or fictitious. I think skaters can bring meaning to a performance. And I don't think artists can only connect to programs from within their own culture. Nor do I think they have to tell us their personal connections to a particular story.

But I do think it really helps if an athlete is a strong performer and can do justice to the emotions the music is trying to portray. And you have to do your research. You have to know the history behind your music selection.

Because it's really easy to fall into cultural quicksand. Which seems the likely hazard here.

In this particular case, I don’t think that being the best performer in the world is going to cut it. The meaning of this song and its incredibly painful history of it can’t be divorced.

Ice Dance · Jul 28, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
I find that these types of songs about injustice/genocide/etc. are often chosen because choreographers believe the songs themselves will somehow elevate the skater's sophistication or artistry just because of the songs' subject matter, and that is incredibly cheap, offensive, and insulting.

I don't find that to be a particularly common pattern regarding tragedy in particular. I mean, I do find that most junior music selections are chosen to teach the athletes how to develop different strengths as performers.

But I think there is a lot more to the tragic performance tradition as a whole. There was quite a good post about the significance of portraying tragedy in Russian culture a couple years ago. Of responding to real-life tragedy via performance. As a form of tribute. I think the post might have been on FSU rather than here or I would try to search for it and try to link it. But it was a very thoughtful post and really easy to see why tragedy is such a significant part of Russian cultural tradition.

And, I would hazard a guess, also a large part of the reason it is such a significant part of skating tradition as well. Though the tragic storytelling tradition is certainly a huge part of many other cultures, as anyone who has been compelled to sit through a Greek Drama or 19th Century Spanish literature class can attest.

Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

madraykin

elektra blue

mother of skaters

Sai Bon

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Harriet

rabidline

TallyT

ruga

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Sai Bon

Ice Dance

Sai Bon

Lamente Ariane

Skating Skills -5, Fashion +3, Camp +4

Harriet

oly2018

Ice Dance

theharleyquinn

believed

Ice Dance

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