Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

brightphoton · Aug 1, 2019

Edwin said:
Why would a white middle class Kansas City family even need to raise funds for a funeral? Was Coughlin himself so poor or in debt? Legal expense? AFIAK nobody pressed charges against the estate and giving the mounting evidence it is unlikely the estate will sue any of the accusers for slander?

Is USFS being sued, like USAG/USOC are being sued by Nassar survivors?

Who knows what they need the money for. There was a Kansas senator, Jerry Moran, who said a few words about reforming SafeSport but I don't know if the Coughlin family used their money for lobbying, or if the senator did it out of his own volition.

John Coughlin's family got more than $40,000 from the figure skating community from over 600 donors. You only have to scroll down the list to see who his supporters were.
They included elite skaters or former elite skaters like:

Caroline Zhang and Grant Hochstein
Polina Edmunds
Angela Nikodinov
possibly Alexa Scimeca's family
Nathan Bartholomay
Caydee Denney

He even got donations from skating organizations.

Midwest Figure Skating Council
Silver Blades Figure Skating Club Of Greater Kansas City
Kansas City Figure Skating Club
St. Joseph Figure Skating Club
Heartland Figure Skating Club
Team Delaware Synchronized Skating

There was also a petition with 5,000+ signatures to reform SafeSport to basically protect John and people like John.
https://www.change.org/p/diana-dege...-coughlin-advocacy-for-figure-skating-coaches

There was also some professional skating coach organizations, I can't remember what their name was now, but they made a public statement that in the future, if any situation like John Coughlin's arose, they would side with the accused coach.

Just look at that. All of that.
That is what a young girl is up against if she tells the public that an established, beloved male skater has sexually abused her.

Finley · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
I pray that kids who are girls/women are taught better on how to defend themselves; and that kids who are boys/men are taught better on what constitutes sexual assault and how to respect boundaries.

We should strive to teach kids and people of all genders about affirmative consent, and also about personal accountability. First, know the rules. Second, know how to protect yourself if someone breaks the rules.

And until this happens we need to protect those people whose responses to trauma don't live up to conventional expectations.

Shock is a hell of a drug. People freeze. People lose focus. No one knows how they will react in any given situation until they are in that situation. People don't always respond the way think they will.

The least we can do as a society is not judge them for not responding the way we think victims are supposed to respond. This is not too much to ask of anyone.

qwerty1195 · Aug 1, 2019

Some of y’all here are disgusting. He groped and kissed her without consent. Period.

drivingmissdaisy · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
I disagree that "John" thought he didn't get consent. We don't know that. The subsequent events indicate that he could have thought he got it, at least implicitly (and then he stopped, when it was explicitly revoked).

Ethically and legally, he would need explicit consent. Whether he thought he had it doesn't really matter.

silverfoxes · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
How do you know that? There's a big difference between someone actually "asleep", and someone "pretending to be asleep". And often it's easy to tell the difference.

How do you know he didn't know she was just pretending? Or that he wasn't trying to wake her up, and thought he did, and that she allowed him to proceed?

It's so easy to condemn, but we just don't know, what he thought when he did it.

If she was pretending to be asleep, and he knew it and went ahead anyway...that would make it better in your eyes??? :palmf:

Yikes.

Eleanor · Aug 1, 2019

andromache said:
The fact is that "the system" is real, and countless young women are raised + trained by society (their parents, the media, etc.) to obey men, not to fight back. Sure, girls of mine and Ashley's generation were usually warned away from walking alone at night, the danger of being assaulted by a stranger in a dark alley, but no one taught us what to do when SOMEONE YOU TRUST assaults you. Young women aren't taught how to deal with confrontation. That's not "feminine." Why do you think Ashley tried everything other than pushing Coughlin away until she finally did that? She pretended to be asleep first. Then she pretended to be waking up. Young women are taught to avoid confrontation. And generally with good reason, because pushing a man away from you, or telling him no or to stop, runs the very real risk of physical violence, and when a man is a lot bigger and stronger than you, it's terrifying.

And we are taught that if someone we trust DOES assault us, it's probably our fault (either because of alcohol, or flirting, or dressing a certain way, or whatever). There's a whole cycle of panic and guilt and shame and feeling like you are the one to blame for what is happening to you.

I hope the women of later generations than mine and Ashley's are taught better. But you need to understand that what women are up against right now IS systemic.

You are the voice of wisdom in this thread.

This is not only about "groping" or "consent", this is also about what some men think they are entitled to and what rights and protection women have.
I don't really care about what happened before: did she talk to him ? was she a little bit flirty ? I don't care. She went to bed, she was asleep and someone entered a room and assaulted her. No consent here, Ashely had no rights, no privacy, no intimacy anymore. She was an object to satisfy a man who thought he could do whatever to her.
It's extremely violent physically and psychologically...
It's extremely worrying to see that to this day, the rape culture is still very much a thing and that some people will always find a way to justify a man's action to "take what they want" and blame the victim for his actions....

Sickening.

Finley · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
How do you know that? There's a big difference between someone actually "asleep", and someone "pretending to be asleep". And often it's easy to tell the difference.

How do you know he didn't know she was just pretending? Or that he wasn't trying to wake her up, and thought he did, and that she allowed him to proceed?

It's so easy to condemn, but we just don't know, what he thought when he did it.

It doesn't matter what he thought. It matters what he did.

He may have thought that he was 100% right to do exactly what he did because he and Ashley were soulmates. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he was madly in love with Ashley and planned to propose marriage the next day. It does not matter. He may have thought they were sharing the most romantic moment in the history of romantic moments. It doesn't matter.

What he thought was happening could be used as a defense at trial if he chose to take the stand and testify on his own behalf, but it changes nothing about what happened.

Thoughts are just that, thoughts. None of us can be put on trial for our thoughts (thank God). You can't judge a person's thoughts but you sure can judge their actions. John is posthumously being held accountable for his actions as described by Ashley.

Just because someone thinks they are in a consensual situation does not make it the truth.

Scott512 · Aug 1, 2019

TallyT said:
This. Is... I have no words.

Yes, I do.

If she had been truly unconscious, by your reasoning he would have been quite justified in keeping going with whatever acts he wanted to do? Including full intercourse - after all, even someone who can't speak has to ASK not to be groped, ot it's implied consent?

He should never have started. He should never have even entered her room. Any man with a shred of decency knows that.

HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. HE WAITED TILL HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP.

And my ignore list has been going up by leaps and bounds since this thread started...

I thank some posters may not even realize they're being as insensitive as they are. It has to be hard for Ashley to she's coming forward and talking about someone who is deceased. That can't be easy for her. I truly hope Ashley Wagner is not haunted by going public with this.

I have two nieces and a stepdaughter and I just can't imagine some guy casually crawling into bed with one of them while they're sleeping and touching them the way Ashley accused John Coughlin of doing. It's very scary no matter where you are in the world. It's hard to stop that. this is what I worry about most for the young women in my life. I think parents really have to push hard when educating their sons at a young age through their teenage years and into their 20s how to actually treat the girls and women they like. Tragically what happened to Ashley seems very commonplace in most of the world these days.

There really should be no excuses for John Coughlin. I am very sorry he is deceased. But when I pass away no one will talk about me that way. His demons probably caused a lot of problems in his lifeand possibly led to his taking his own life. I hope he can rest in peace and that Ashley can move on now that she's going public and live a fantastic rest of her life and be a big star in skating shows as she should be with her personality.

Beckaboomer · Aug 1, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
Ethically and legally, he would need explicit consent. Whether he thought he had it doesn't really matter.

WORD. For God's sake what is this obsession with what he thought? Who cares what he was thinking? What he DID was disgusting, and was again - ONE IN A LONG LIST OF similar stories.

Also - freezing does not make a victim (of whatever gender) a "shrinking violet" or whatever such nonsense is being spouted around here. It's a normal reaction to fear and stress like "fight or flight."

IndiaP12 · Aug 1, 2019

That’s so brave of her to speak about it! I’m about to turn 17 and I can’t even imagine being in that situation. So awful that she had to experience that

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

fzztsimmons said:
A friend of mine from university said no when a guy tried it on with her. She tried to push him away when he came on to her. Do you know what happened? He pinned her down and raped her anyway.
There are a hundred different reasons why a girl/women's first reaction is not to fight back. Girls are not "weak" if they are frozen with fear in a horrendous situation. You are implying that if they had "fought harder" they wouldn't have gotten attacked. You may as well be saying "it's because they wore a short skirt".
And it was forceable. She was asleep. She could in no way asked him to start touching her. He got into bed, on top of her and touched her without her being able to respond. It doesn't matter whether he stopped later. It. Was. Sexual. Assault. And. It's. Not. Ok.

Yes, it was assault, and it was not okay. Sometimes, the assailant may be simply stronger, and fighting will be futile. Also, there're many situations when it's actually quite unwise to try to fight it (it's much better to be raped but LIVE, than be beaten into a bloody pulp and possibly become an invalid, or die). So...

However, what I can't help but notice (and I noticed the same in "metoo" debates) is the unfortunate tendency to absolve victims of ANY accountability whatsoever, regardless of the circumstances, and imply that a woman, by definition, is this whimpering shrinking violet, who has no say in whatever happens to her body, and who should never ever have to think about NOT putting herself into dangerous situations. That is simply not true.

As for "short skirts". My heartfelt belief is as follows. If a girls gets drunk and decides to undress, and goes for a butt-naked midnight stroll through a bad part of town, she has a right to do it, and it's not an invitation to assault. If she gets sexually assaulted - her assailant is 100% guilty, and should be punished to the full extent of the law, no excuses. However, his 100% guilt does not absolve her, of her own culpability in failing to exercise her responsibility of protecting herself!

We are responsible for protecting our bodies, our health, our possessions, and our lives. This is why girls should NOT be taught that "it's always okay to go for drunken butt-naked midnight strolls whenever it strikes your fancy, because no one has a right to touch you without your consent". Instead, girls should know that "while no one has a right to touch you without your consent, it's your primary responsibility to protect yourself; so be smart, be vocal, and learn both how to avoid danger, and how to fight back".

Golden1 · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
I completely agree that "Ashley" didn't give consent.

I disagree that "John" thought he didn't get consent. We don't know that. The subsequent events indicate that he could have thought he got it, at least implicitly (and then he stopped, when it was explicitly revoked).

At least where I live "silence is consent" is no longer true in a legal sense and I really wonder how anyone can truly argue that "John" thought he had Ashley's consent. Why didn't he then try something with her when she was awake and standing up? Why wait till she was asleep in her bed? I mean, come on!

cruzceleste · Aug 1, 2019

brightphoton said:
Who knows what they need the money for. There was a Kansas senator, Jerry Moran, who said a few words about reforming SafeSport but I don't know if the Coughlin family used their money for lobbying, or if the senator did it out of his own volition.

John Coughlin's family got more than $40,000 from the figure skating community from over 600 donors. You only have to scroll down the list to see who his supporters were.
They included elite skaters or former elite skaters like:

Caroline Zhang and Grant Hochstein

Polina Edmunds

Angela Nikodinov

possibly Alexa Scimeca's family

Nathan Bartholomay

Caydee Denney

Again, don´t ask a person who knew, or thought he knew someone, to stop loving someone because they were accused of something bad. Are you trying to shame these skaters?

For all they knew Coughlin was a decent guy, and they loved him. Only Coughlin and his character are to be questioned in my opinion. The other skaters were morning a friend and believe their friend when he told them these accusations were false.

Ulrica · Aug 1, 2019

gmyers said:
There’s no reason for me to believe Coughlin did anything bad. Even with Ashley’s story he stopped when she asked.

And this is how we identify potential predators.

Eleanor · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
Yes, it was assault, and it was not okay. Sometimes, the assailant may be simply stronger, and fighting will be futile. Also, there're many situations when it's actually quite unwise to try to fight it (it's much better to be raped but LIVE, than be beaten into a bloody pulp and possibly become an invalid, or die). So...

However, what I can't help but notice (and I noticed the same in "metoo" debates) is the unfortunate tendency to absolve victims of ANY accountability whatsoever, regardless of the circumstances, and imply that a woman, by definition, is this whimpering shrinking violet, who has no say in whatever happens to her body, and who should never ever have to think about NOT putting herself into dangerous situations. That is simply not true.

As for "short skirts". My heartfelt belief is as follows. If a girls gets drunk and decides to undress, and goes for a butt-naked midnight stroll through a bad part of town, she has a right to do it, and it's not an invitation to assault. If she gets sexually assaulted - her assailant is 100% guilty, and should be punished to the full extent of the law, no excuses. However, his 100% guilt does not absolve her, of her own culpability in failing to exercise her responsibility of protecting herself!

We are responsible for protecting our bodies, our health, our possessions, and our lives. This is why girls should NOT be taught that "it's always okay to go for drunken butt-naked midnight strolls whenever it strikes your fancy, because no one has a right to touch you without your consent". Instead, girls should know that "while no one has a right to touch you without your consent, it's your primary responsibility to protect yourself; so be smart, be vocal, and learn both how to avoid danger, and how to fight back".

But we should not have to. Men can wander freely, never look back behind their shoulders to see if they are followed, they can go shirtless in the streets without being whitsled, they can get drunk and pass out and the only thing they risk is sleeping in their vomit, they can go to the club or the bar without being looked like a piece of meat, they can enjoy their freedom of movements and not think of a way to get home safely, men can trust other men and women, men don't fear to have GHB poured in their drinks, men don't fear walking home alone at night...understand where I am going ?

Women should not be taught to be careful and wary. We are because we have no other choice at the moment. But the issules lies with men. End of story.

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

Beckaboomer said:
WORD. For God's sake what is this obsession with what he thought? Who cares what he was thinking? What he DID was disgusting, and was again - ONE IN A LONG LIST OF similar stories.

Also - freezing does not make a victim (of whatever gender) a "shrinking violet" or whatever such nonsense is being spouted around here. It's a normal reaction to fear and stress like "fight or flight."

Legally speaking, what he was thinking is very important, because it determines both evil INTENT (or lack thereof), as well as the degree of RESPONSIBILITY for a crime (due to ability to properly distinguish between right and wrong).

As for Ashley freezing, that's a very good point. It's natural. This is why I insist on need for education. Solders freeze during battle - but training helps them not to freeze. Girls (and boys) should be taught how not to freeze and protect themselves.

brightphoton · Aug 1, 2019

cruzceleste said:
Again, don´t ask a person who knew, or thought he knew someone, to stop loving someone because they were accused of something bad. Are you trying to shame these skaters?

For all they knew Coughlin was a decent guy, and they loved him. Only Coughlin and his character are to be questioned in my opinion. The other skaters were morning a friend and believe their friend when he told them these accusations were false.

Yes, it is shameful. 3 women, 2 who were underage at the time, had said to a investigation that John Coughlin had sexually abused them. And these people and organizations didn't believe him. Furthermore, they were willing to publicly put up their names and real money to John Coughlin instead -- knowing full well that there were 3 accusers.

For the individuals, it is more of a whatever feeling, they can spend their money how they want. I may not like it, but human is to ere.

Edit: For the individuals, however, I would not trust them so much when it came to cases like this again. I would not ask them to chaperone trips, or organization trips with underage girls, I would not trust their judgement as to who is trustworthy to act properly.

However, for the organizations, yes, they should be named, shamed, and then shamed again. Top officials in their organizations thought, "Yes, there are 3 women who accused John Coughlin of sexual abuse, and the Larry Nassar case showed that in the future, they will likely be more, but we believe that the best course of action for our organization is to publicly make a donation for the man." They stood by their decision and backed it up with their organization's wallet.

GS Forum Staff · Aug 1, 2019

We understand that this topic is extremely sensitive and perhaps triggering for many of our members. Our team of moderators is doing our best to moderate this thread - please keep in mind that all GS Guidelines still apply in this thread.

We here at GoldenSkate support victims of sexual assault, and we support Ashley Wagner and applaud her for coming forward. However, we are allowing those of other viewpoints to express those opinions here, as long as they are within GS Guidelines - unfounded speculation and slander is not allowed. This is NOT an endorsement of those viewpoints. We also understand that those viewpoints may be triggering, and encourage users to use the "Ignore" function in response to those posts/users. Please continue to report posts that violate GS Guidelines.

If you are a victim of sexual assault and feel re-traumatized by today's revelations, please call USA National Sexual Assault Hotline
1-800-656-4673

Canadian hotlines are on this webpage:
http://www.feminist.org/911/resources_other.html

TallyT · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
How do you know that? There's a big difference between someone actually "asleep", and someone "pretending to be asleep". And often it's easy to tell the difference.

How do you know he didn't know she was just pretending? Or that he wasn't trying to wake her up, and thought he did, and that she allowed him to proceed?

It's so easy to condemn, but we just don't know, what he thought when he did it.

Oh for... "he thought she was pretending"?? And you think that somehow means he might have thought what she really wanted was to be groped so was pretending so he could??? That anyone could imagine pretending to be asleep in your own bed as some sort of twisted come on.... I'm beyond disgusted here, rather in stone cold shock.

Ulrica · Aug 1, 2019

Respect to Ashley for speaking up, I never had the courage to do so regarding my own story, and more than a decade later I don't think I ever will. It must have been an extremely hard thing to do, especially for someone as high profile as her, and I don't have words to describe how grateful I am that there are women out there like her; brave enough to share their story in the hopes of helping protect little girls (and boys) from the monsters in this world.

And shame on those who are disgusting enough to defend Coughlin; they are a part of the problem, a part of what is so wrong in this world, and I am utterly horrified people like them call themselves "fans" of young women and girls in any sport.

Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

brightphoton

Finley

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Eleanor

Finley

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Beckaboomer

IndiaP12

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Ulrica

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