Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

Finley · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
Yes, it was assault, and it was not okay. Sometimes, the assailant may be simply stronger, and fighting will be futile. Also, there're many situations when it's actually quite unwise to try to fight it (it's much better to be raped but LIVE, than be beaten into a bloody pulp and possibly become an invalid, or die). So...

However, what I can't help but notice (and I noticed the same in "metoo" debates) is the unfortunate tendency to absolve victims of ANY accountability whatsoever, regardless of the circumstances, and imply that a woman, by definition, is this whimpering shrinking violet, who has no say in whatever happens to her body, and who should never ever have to think about NOT putting herself into dangerous situations. That is simply not true.

As for "short skirts". My heartfelt belief is as follows. If a girls gets drunk and decides to undress, and goes for a butt-naked midnight stroll through a bad part of town, she has a right to do it, and it's not an invitation to assault. If she gets sexually assaulted - her assailant is 100% guilty, and should be punished to the full extent of the law, no excuses. However, his 100% guilt does not absolve her, of her own culpability in failing to exercise her responsibility of protecting herself!

We are responsible for protecting our bodies, our health, our possessions, and our lives. This is why girls should NOT be taught that "it's always okay to go for drunken butt-naked midnight strolls whenever it strikes your fancy, because no one has a right to touch you without your consent". Instead, girls should know that "while no one has a right to touch you without your consent, it's your primary responsibility to protect yourself; so be smart, be vocal, and learn both how to avoid danger, and how to fight back".

Life is a dangerous situation. We are all one Garlic Festival away from being in mortal danger of some kind.

We can lock our doors, leave the porch light on, never leave our drinks unattended, and take self defense classes. Is there a some magical combination of actions taken that allow her meet the standards of 'exercising her responsibility of protecting herself'? If she is carrying mace at the time is she 'absolved of her own culpability'?

Or maybe we could just drop our expectations of what she should have done and said to prevent all of this and support her/him unconditionally? Leave the fact-finding to law enforcement and the attorneys involved.

The only thing I want to hold a victim accountable for is telling the truth about what happened to the best of her recollection and ability. Shame and guilt and blaming themselves has already kept victims silent for decades. Has anyone other than perpetrators benefited from that? The statistics on unreported rapes speak for themselves. Also the conviction rate on reported rapes is just a tragedy. Trust me when I say there is nothing about our system making it easy for victims to come forward.

When someone is critically injured in a car accident do you ask if they were wearing their seat-belt? If they were speeding? If they were driving at night on that street that isn't well lit? If their tires were bald? Unless you are insurance adjuster, I hope not.

We need more compassion and empathy, not less.

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

Eleanor said:
But we should not have to. Men can wander freely, never look back behind their shoulders to see if they are followed, they can go shirtless in the streets without being whitsled, they can get drunk and pass out and the only thing they risk is sleeping in their vomit, they can go to the club or the bar without being looked like a piece of meat, they can enjoy their freedom of movements and not think of a way to get home safely, men can trust other men and women, men don't fear to have GHB poured in their drinks, men don't fear walking home alone at night...understand where I am going ?

Women should not be taught to be careful and wary. We are because we have no other choice at the moment. But the issules lies with men. End of story.

Life is not fair. The reason men are bothered less than women is they are STRONGER, and they are FIGHTERS. Men can be raped, too. (Or beaten within an inch of their life, or robbed, or humiliated, or assaulted.) Men are not impervious to danger.

I totally agree that culture needs to change, and men need educating. No one should be treated as a piece of meat.

Women should be taught to be fighters, to be strong AND SMART, mentally, emotionally, physically. "Weak" is not smart. Hoping for the better world, while acting as if we are already there, is not smart either.

It is what it is. Culture can change, and it is changing. But I doubt it will ever be wise to go for a drunken butt-naked midnight stroll in a bad part of town, for either a woman, or a man.

Finley · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
Legally speaking, what he was thinking is very important, because it determines both evil INTENT (or lack thereof), as well as the degree of RESPONSIBILITY for a crime (due to ability to properly distinguish between right and wrong).

As for Ashley freezing, that's a very good point. It's natural. This is why I insist on need for education. Solders freeze during battle - but training helps them not to freeze. Girls (and boys) should be taught how not to freeze and protect themselves.

You are killing me.

I seriously think a part of my brain has died reading this thread. Is there a hotline I can call?

I want these words on my gravestone.

Antiloquy · Aug 1, 2019

Props to Ashley for speaking up about this. How horrible for her to have gone through it. Her actions have absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened to her.

Seriously disappointed to read some of the responses in this thread.

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

Finley said:
When someone is critically injured in a car accident do you ask if they were wearing their seat-belt? If they were speeding? If they were driving at night on that street that isn't well lit? If their tires were bald? Unless you are insurance adjuster, I hope not.

We need more compassion and empathy, not less.

I might not ask a victim that, especially while they are still hurting. But I would certainly think about it. And I would hope we are not about to start publicly showering the victims with our "compassion and empathy", instead of looking at any tragic situation objectively, and advising others that it's better to wear seat-belts, and not speed, and not drive at high speed at nights on a street that's not well lit?

For me, it's about maximum prevention. Perpetrators should be stopped. Potential victims should be taught how to escape becoming a victim!

Gosh, this is sex we are talking about - but what about robberies? What about murders? What about falling drunken over a cliff? There're plenty of situations when it's highly advisable NOT to put yourself into a dangerous situation.

Why is it okay to advise people "protect yourself so you shall not be robbed!", but it's apparently not okay to advise people "protect yourself so you shall not be sexually assaulted!"?

TallyT · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
Life is not fair. The reason men are bothered less than women is they are STRONGER, and they are FIGHTERS. Men can be raped, too. (Or beaten within an inch of their life, or robbed, or humiliated, or assaulted.) Men are not impervious to danger.

I totally agree that culture needs to change, and men need educating. No one should be treated as a piece of meat.

Women should be taught to be fighters, to be strong AND SMART, mentally, emotionally, physically. "Weak" is not smart. Hoping for the better world, while acting as if we are already there, is not smart either.

This is the 21st century, and we do not expose babies or throw away children or even adults because they are imperfect. Or tell people that because they are not Iron Men/Women, as you seem to believe is mandatory for a safe and happy existence, they have no right to that safe and happy existence. I am not young and strong, always bookish and klutzy, and have dodgy knees (touch of arthritis), so by your reasoning I have no right to go out at night and if I do, I would be at fault if I get mugged, beaten or murdered because I could not fight back.

Good to know.

We will never be able to call our countries truly civilised until we ungrudgingly protect the weaker among us. You may not mean to be, but you are grudging that to the very young, the frail, the not so smart, the weaker.

But I doubt it will ever be wise to go for a drunken butt-naked midnight stroll in a bad part of town, for either a woman, or a man.

And exactly what does anyone's drunken butt-naked midnight stroll have to do with a grown man crawling into Ashley's bed while she was sleeping?

GermaricanMix · Aug 1, 2019

I really think there's trolling going on in this thread and the mods need to be shutting people down. This isn't a topic where 'differences of opinion' is a valid excuse. Ashley was sexually assaulted. End of story.

LiamForeman · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
How do you know that? There's a big difference between someone actually "asleep", and someone "pretending to be asleep". And often it's easy to tell the difference.

How do you know he didn't know she was just pretending? Or that he wasn't trying to wake her up, and thought he did, and that she allowed him to proceed?

It's so easy to condemn, but we just don't know, what he thought when he did it.

Exactly. His judgment was likely impaired, maybe he thought she was someone else? Who knows. But I find it perfectly plausible to think he got into bed, and being drunk and well, a guy, he thought he could wake her up by kissing her neck like Ashley said happened. And that right there is assault, legally speaking. This has happened to me. And yada, yada, yada, his hands started going *down there* so she finally decided it was time to say "No way, go away". And he did. To most everyone his behavior is definitely creepy and inappropriate, but I've come to see that the inner "Elite Skating Bubble" is VERY sheltered. At 22, John should have been looking at girls who were out of high school. But that wasn't his reality. He considered the girls he abused as his "peers". But high school girls shouldn't be getting drunk with grown adults at house parties either, even if they were skating partners or friends inside that bubble. So in that respect I am glad that Ashley spoke out, especially when she said it was because Alysa won Sr.Natls. I don't think I was the only one who was bothered by Alysa's sobs at Nationals. She looked like a little girl (which she is) but without much of any emotional maturity. So, if Ashley's declaration helps any girl who is caught in the bubble and not experienced the 'real world', that is a very good thing. I also noticed or was questioning John's emotional maturity too. He gets temporarily banned and the first thing he does is commit suicide? He sounds like another victim of the "bubble".

ancientpeas · Aug 1, 2019

People need to stop making excuses for him. Lots of people have been sexually abused, lots of people have been drunk. None of that makes it okay to abuse other people.

evasorange · Aug 1, 2019

At worst, you guys are defending sexual assault(which I absolutely believe Ashley that that’s what this was for the record) at best you guys are defending a 22 year old man going to into a 17 year old girl-who he is not romantically involved with in any way- bed and while she is visibly asleep starts groping and kissing her. So all of you defending this would be ok with this happening to you?? You would be just able to brush it off and say oh, he didn’t know what he was doing and go on your way? Cause if you don’t believe that is assault then you have to believe it’s ok and normal behavior. Have some of y’all wanted to do this before or something?? I just can’t believe, even though it’s Ashley and people always like to fight about what she says that ANYone would try to defend this creepy and unacceptable behavior!

Also it’s kind of wild to see skaters who were going hard in defending John now send support to Ashley. If you were able to support him publicly then you need to condemn him publicly imo.

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

Finley said:
The least we can do as a society is not judge them for not responding the way we think victims are supposed to respond. This is not too much to ask of anyone.

No one judges the victims.

Also, I generally agree with "believe the accusers" sentiment. As a rule, it's much harder for an abused to speak up, than for an abuser to get off scot free.

However, as a society, we should not tolerate the emerging mob mentality of "100% guilty as soon as someone spoke up". Because misunderstandings happen, and extenuating circumstances might happen. Not all "abusers" are painted equal. First, investigate. Then, judge.

It's not about "evil men" vs. "blameless women", because that's just the continuance of the same ol', same ol', outdated mentality of "weak women are naturally predestined to be preyed on, by men". Women deserve better than that, IMHO.

ancientpeas · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
No one judges the victims.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true. I wish it were but it is not. The victim is constantly judged. Constantly. We had a case thrown out by a judge here last week because the judge felt she was "too strong" to let anyone bully her into sex and that her timeline was an hour off and she insisted that she was correct. BTW this man has been accused of raping 5 other women. From what you wore, to how you dressed, to how much you drank or smoked or your past sexual history it is all about judgement. You need to be the right kind of victim for prosecutors to even go ahead with charging the other person or persons.

TallyT · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
No one judges the victims.

Except that you have been doing so non stop, not least by bringing in totally unrelated stuff about naked swimming and suggesting that people who aren't as strong as determined mandatory by you have less right to safety than others.

However, as a society, we should not tolerate the emerging mob mentality of "100% guilty as soon as someone spoke up". Because misunderstandings happen, and extenuating circumstances might happen. Not all "abusers" are painted equal. First, investigate. Then, judge.

Again, oh for.... Safesport did investigate, and have been raked over the coals for doing so by the American skating community ever since!!

Scott512 · Aug 1, 2019

I've been posting here for over five and a half years and have seen so many arguments get heated over figure skating and the ladies in particular. But this thread is a different animal altogether. Very sad to find out what Ashley went through and then reading all of the posts are so emotional so opinionated so upsetting in some cases.

I only hope Ashley is okay going forward.

karne · Aug 1, 2019

What a thing to wake up to this morning.

I can only hope that Ashley is getting the support she needs and is surrounded by friends and good people right now. Because we saw what Coughlin's camp did to the last young lady to speak up and it wasn't pleasant. I imagine they'll have a hard time trying to paint Ashley as the crazy jealous rival but that doesn't mean they'll be put off trying.

I also suspect Ashley won't be the last one. I suspect there are more.

But all of this just makes it worse. Coughlin must have known the floodgates were opening. So he chose to end things in the most traumatic way possible, to try and prevent anyone getting any closure and to avoid responsibility for his actions. What a coward.

Casual · Aug 1, 2019

LiamForeman said:
Exactly. His judgment was likely impaired, maybe he thought she was someone else? Who knows. But I find it perfectly plausible to think he got into bed, and being drunk and well, a guy, he thought he could wake her up by kissing her neck like Ashley said happened. And that right there is assault, legally speaking. This has happened to me. And yada, yada, yada, his hands started going *down there* so she finally decided it was time to say "No way, go away". And he did. To most everyone his behavior is definitely creepy and inappropriate, but I've come to see that the inner "Elite Skating Bubble" is VERY sheltered. At 22, John should have been looking at girls who were out of high school. But that wasn't his reality. He considered the girls he abused as his "peers". But high school girls shouldn't be getting drunk with grown adults at house parties, even if they were skating partners or friends inside that bubble. So in that respect I am glad that Ashley spoke out, especially when she said it was because Alysa won Sr.Natls. I don't think I was the only one who was bothered by Alysa's sobs at Nationals. She looked like a little girl (which she is) but without much of any emotional maturity. So, if Ashley's declaration helps any girl who is caught in the bubble and not experienced the 'real world', that is a very good thing. I also noticed or was questioning John's emotional maturity too. He gets temporarily banned and the first thing he does is commit suicide? He sounds like another victim of the "bubble".

This! People talk about his suicide as "proof of his guilt". But it may be just a sign of extreme emotional immaturity.

I was punished by moderators, by the way, for my comment which surmised that they both might have been very immature, (jokingly, with a "LOL", like 7 years younger than their years (you do the math, LOL)).

But in all seriousness, I believe this might have been an unaddressed issue. Just how "adult" these athletes are? Frozen in their bubble?

Take Gracie Gold. Did she strike anyone as a well adjusted adult? Or was her story another example of elite skating being actually very harmful to a child's mental health?

My point was NOT about specifically Ashley, or John, (or Gracie). But I truly believe, this sport (and other similar ventures, where very young kids are brought into a narrow, hard performing bubble, closed-off from the real world) can be highly detrimental to proper development.

Some athletes are very well adjusted and well-rounded, but others are caged into a narrow bubble when still kids, limiting their development. Results can be tragic.

coldblueeyes · Aug 1, 2019

Casual said:
This! People talk about his suicide as "proof of his guilt". But it may be just a sign of extreme emotional immaturity.

I was punished by moderators, by the way, for my comment which surmised that they both might have been very immature, (jokingly, with a "LOL", like 7 years younger than their years (you do the math, LOL)).

But in all seriousness, I believe this might have been an unaddressed issue. Just how "adult" these athletes are? Frozen in their bubble?

Take Gracie Gold. Did she strike anyone as a well adjusted adult? Or was her story another example of elite skating being actually very harmful to a child's mental health?

My point was NOT about specifically Ashley, or John, (or Gracie). But I truly believe, this sport (and other similar ventures, where very young kids are brought into a narrow, hard performing bubble, closed-off from the real world) can be highly detrimental to proper development.

Some athletes are very well adjusted and well-rounded, but others are caged into a narrow bubble when still kids, limiting their development. Results can be tragic.

It still doesn't matter at all. The fact that he had any kind of 'impaired' judgment - using the term very loosely there - doesn't change at all what happened. The experience a victim went through won't change according to the reasons behind a perpetrator's actions. In fact, their alleged reasons might be why the victims won't come forward. It's what happened in the past a thousand times or more.

Each time we try to find reason in an abuser's actions is when we take away the voice of the victim. Whatever went through his mind, the action is what happened. And it won't change because of something he thought.

andromache · Aug 1, 2019

karne said:
But all of this just makes it worse. Coughlin must have known the floodgates were opening. So he chose to end things in the most traumatic way possible, to try and prevent anyone getting any closure and to avoid responsibility for his actions. What a coward.

In spite of what Coughlin did to Ashley and other young women, I hope that we can avoid discussing his suicide this way. Suicide is rarely so rational or intentionally malicious. I’m a sexual assault survivor as well as someone who lost a loved one to suicide a few years ago. Suicide is tragic and so sad, even when the individual is guilty of doing bad things, and it’s terrible for his parents, siblings and other loved ones.

macy · Aug 1, 2019

brightphoton said:
Who knows what they need the money for. There was a Kansas senator, Jerry Moran, who said a few words about reforming SafeSport but I don't know if the Coughlin family used their money for lobbying, or if the senator did it out of his own volition.

John Coughlin's family got more than $40,000 from the figure skating community from over 600 donors. You only have to scroll down the list to see who his supporters were.
They included elite skaters or former elite skaters like:

Caroline Zhang and Grant Hochstein

Polina Edmunds

Angela Nikodinov

possibly Alexa Scimeca's family

Nathan Bartholomay

Caydee Denney

He even got donations from skating organizations.

Midwest Figure Skating Council

Silver Blades Figure Skating Club Of Greater Kansas City

Kansas City Figure Skating Club

St. Joseph Figure Skating Club

Heartland Figure Skating Club

Team Delaware Synchronized Skating

There was also a petition with 5,000+ signatures to reform SafeSport to basically protect John and people like John.
https://www.change.org/p/diana-dege...-coughlin-advocacy-for-figure-skating-coaches

There was also some professional skating coach organizations, I can't remember what their name was now, but they made a public statement that in the future, if any situation like John Coughlin's arose, they would side with the accused coach.

Just look at that. All of that.
That is what a young girl is up against if she tells the public that an established, beloved male skater has sexually abused her.

I literally have no words for this. How absolutely shameful.

GS Forum Staff · Aug 1, 2019

Hello everyone.

GS Forum Staff understands there may be some of you who want to support Ashley Wagner and other victims of sexual assault but may fear being triggered. We have created a thread for that purpose.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...pport-for-Ashley-Wagner&p=2429094#post2429094

This thread will remain open for those who want to see all discussion points regarding today's developments.

We will not tolerate any posts of non-support in the other thread. They will be removed accordingly.

Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

Finley

Casual

Finley

Antiloquy

Casual

TallyT

GermaricanMix

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

evasorange

Casual

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

TallyT

Scott512

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Casual

coldblueeyes

andromache

macy

GS Forum Staff

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