Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

What an awful story, or honestly real life experience. I know from my own experiences from when I was about 15 how these things happen. No matter that he left when she said 'no' (and that is the only good part of this), but that he even tried this, is so disgusting. I'm 53 now, but I still recall the experience of staying with 'friends' and being woken up because one of them was f........g me. I never talked about it (after all, I was staying at a place I shouldn't have).

Does it matter at all that she had been drinking albeit being under age? Not at all. Any girl being at a party would get a drink. Come on, we're talking about a 17 year old. A girl who wants to take part in a party with all the others. I've been one of those (probably despiccable) people who until now thought the whole John Coughlin thing was more a question of perception than true abuse, though I definitely believed his former partner when she spoke up. However, a woman like Ashley who opens up and tells her story - including the perhaps less favourable parts to herself - makes me change my mind. A lot. I know how it feels, how wrong but you're still blaming yourself for staying there in the first place.

Sorry everybody, I realise I'm being too emotional and personal. It's just that I'm so proud of Ashley for speaking out. I never did out of fear for the negative consquences for me. She's a hero!

TallyT said:

This is the 21st century, and we do not expose babies or throw away children or even adults because they are imperfect. Or tell people that because they are not Iron Men/Women, as you seem to believe is mandatory for a safe and happy existence, they have no right to that safe and happy existence. I am not young and strong, always bookish and klutzy, and have dodgy knees (touch of arthritis), so by your reasoning I have no right to go out at night and if I do, I would be at fault if I get mugged, beaten or murdered because I could not fight back.

Good to know.

We will never be able to call our countries truly civilised until we ungrudgingly protect the weaker among us. You may not mean to be, but you are grudging that to the very young, the frail, the not so smart, the weaker.

And exactly what does anyone's drunken butt-naked midnight stroll have to do with a grown man crawling into Ashley's bed while she was sleeping?

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This had nothing to do with Ashley. As for her situation - 1) it was assault; 2) Ashley was not at fault; 3) John should not have done it; 4) we don't know anything about his intent and state of mind; and 5) there are degrees of assault, and this was not the most egregious one.

And finally, 6) the best point someone made was about how fruitless it would have been for Ashley to come forward earlier. THAT is the REAL problem in the sport. Not John and whatever he did.

As for society at large and a larger debate... True, this is the 21st century. Meanwhile, women rights are under assault in the US. Women's right to choose is under assault, "feminist" became a dirty word, "equal pay" is rarely brought up... but instead we are spending time defending the right of witless fools to get themselves into compromising situations without getting assaulted? Come on. Yes, they have the right to make whatever choice, and no one should assault them - but no, they should still think about their own protection.

It's okay to be imperfect. No, one does not need to be an Iron man (or Iron woman) not to get assaulted. It's society's responsibility to protect the weak. All true.

But it's criminal, IMHO, to teach girls irresponsibility and unaccountability, and to imply that it's okay to do whatever, to make whatever choices, regardless of reality or circumstances, and EXPECT that everything will turn out alright anyway, because someone else presumably should and will be "responsible", which will afford natural protection to their body.

That's my point. It's nothing to do with Ashley, but everything to do with the broader debate. Just sick and tired of the current trend INFANTILIZING women, and denying them any agency. We are not shrinking violets, and we should not allow anyone to treat us as such - including other women, no matter how well-meaning they are. JMHO

ancientpeas said:

People need to stop making excuses for him. Lots of people have been sexually abused, lots of people have been drunk. None of that makes it okay to abuse other people.

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Thank you for saying this. Look, it's no secret that I was a dorky dancer who never fit in with my high school classmates. I never went to parties because I had to compete every weekend. The latest I used to stay up was for a Friday night halftime show at our football games. It never happened to me but, it did happen to a team member of mine who stayed late at party and was assaulted by a football player. Like John, these guys were big and handsome and there were "some" girls who would have dated them had the "asked". The problem was....My teammate wasn't given a choice. She was assaulted and she told our advisor. In her case, this player was removed from the team and expelled. I think if had been overlooked, she would have changed schools because she was traumatized. I know that John is no longer with us and in a way, it's too bad. I wonder how this would have played out if he were here to face the music.

Casual said:

But it's criminal, IMHO, to teach girls irresponsibility and unaccountability, and to imply that it's okay to do whatever, to make whatever choices, regardless of reality or circumstances, and EXPECT that everything will turn out alright anyway, because someone else presumably should and will be "responsible", which will afford natural protection to their body.

That's my point. It's nothing to do with Ashley, but everything to do with the broader debate. Just sick and tired of the current trend INFANTILIZING women, and denying them any agency. We are not shrinking violets, and we should not allow anyone to treat us as such - including other women, no matter how well-meaning they are. JMHO

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I feel like your point misses the possibility that a strong woman who does all the right things can still be sexually assaulted. You literally can do all the "right" things and still be assaulted. Many people who I find out where sexual assault victims were people I consider independent and strong. Far from the shrinking violets that you keep mentioning here.

Personal agency also applies to the person doing the assault. Why put the onus on the potential victims? Parents, schools, etc need to teach consent and boundaries. I am encouraged that I have friends with children who have made it their priority to do just that.

Casual said:

but instead we are spending time defending the right of witless fools to get themselves into compromising situations without getting assaulted?

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Seriously? Did you just refer to rape/assault victims as witless fools because they're out enjoying themselves? Are the men witless fools as well, or does that just apply to girls who want to live their lives without being assaulted?

Gross, gross, gross.

coldblueeyes said:

It still doesn't matter at all. The fact that he had any kind of 'impaired' judgment - using the term very loosely there - doesn't change at all what happened. The experience a victim went through won't change according to the reasons behind a perpetrator's actions. In fact, their alleged reasons might be why the victims won't come forward. It's what happened in the past a thousand times or more.

Each time we try to find reason in an abuser's actions is when we take away the voice of the victim. Whatever went through his mind, the action is what happened. And it won't change because of something he thought.

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To be hurt with malice, or without malice - it matters. By someone who possesses full mental capacity, or is impaired due to a mental defect - it matters. Even for the victim, it might matter.

Legally, even more so. That's why there's a difference between "murder" and "manslaughter". Action may be the same, but the intent was not.

karne said:

Seriously? Did you just refer to rape/assault victims as witless fools because they're out enjoying themselves? Are the men witless fools as well, or does that just apply to girls who want to live their lives without being assaulted?

Gross, gross, gross.

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What is gross is implying that "living one's life" is seemingly impossible without getting rid of the antiquated concept of personal responsibility, for one's health, safety and well-being.

I might want to "live my life" with not a care in the world. But unfortunately, the world is not full of roses and candy-crapping Unicorns, so I have to adjust my behavior to reality.

My deepest sympathies, always, to assault victims. Also, I'd like there to be less victims, not more.

I fail to see how the current trend of "do whatever, live your life, don't worry about predators and dangers" can do anything but increase the numbers of victims? It's bad enough out there, even when doing everything possible not to get assaulted, it's still easy enough to become a victim - so why would we want to increase the odds by advising girls "do whatever, don't ever think about danger"?

Casual said:

I fail to see how the current trend of "do whatever, live your life, don't worry about predators and dangers" can do anything but increase the numbers of victims? It's bad enough out there, even when doing everything possible not to get assaulted, it's still easy enough to become a victim - so why would we want to increase the odds by advising girls "do whatever, don't ever think about danger"?

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I think this is a bit of a strawman. I have never seen anyone say "just be careless and do whatever you want."

The issue here is that sexual assault victims have felt the onus for FAR too long to carry the guilt of their assault because of the idea they didn't "do enough" or didn't "do the right thing." The movement, in my view is to encourage survivors to stop bearing so much guilt. That's not the same thing as say "don't worry and do whatever because you're protected."

There are efforts being made to help women defend themselves. Everything from consent presentations at colleges to self-defense classes from local gyms. You're seeing women signup for these classes at incredible numbers.

It is way past time this thread was closed.

Mrs. P said:

I feel like your point misses the possibility that a strong woman who does all the right things can still be sexually assaulted. You literally can do all the "right" things and still be assaulted. Many people who I find out where sexual assault victims were people I consider independent and strong. Far from the shrinking violets that you keep mentioning here.

Personal agency also applies to the person doing the assault. Why put the onus on the potential victims? Parents, schools, etc need to teach consent and boundaries. I am encouraged that I have friends with children who have made it their priority to do just that.

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Oh, no, no, no. I'm not at all implying that strong women don't get assaulted. They do. Or that doing everything in one's power to protect herself would prevent assault. It might not be enough. Or that abusers don't have any agency. Of course they do.

Or even that culture does not need to change - yes, it does; and teaching everyone about affirmative consent is a crucial step in the right direction.

All I'm saying is, I'm worried by the current trend of infantilizing women, which denies them any agency in their own protection, or accountability about their choices. "Women can do whatever they want and not think about danger, because men should know better" - yes, they CAN do whatever, but it's foolish to insist they SHOULD do whatever, under ANY circumstances. You follow?

brightphoton said:

I remember the threads on Golden Skate, and the moderators themselves closed threads to help protect John Coughlin's reputation

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Sorry, but that is not what happened at all. The moderation team closed the threads "pending investigations, official reports, etc". If you go back, you will see the statements.

Casual said:

What is gross is implying that "living one's life" is seemingly impossible without getting rid of the antiquated concept of personal responsibility, for one's health, safety and well-being.

I might want to "live my life" with not a care in the world. But unfortunately, the world is not full of roses and candy-crapping Unicorns, so I have to adjust my behavior to reality.

My deepest sympathies, always, to assault victims. Also, I'd like there to be less victims, not more.

I fail to see how the current trend of "do whatever, live your life, don't worry about predators and dangers" can do anything but increase the numbers of victims? It's bad enough out there, even when doing everything possible not to get assaulted, it's still easy enough to become a victim - so why would we want to increase the odds by advising girls "do whatever, don't ever think about danger"?

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I get the feeling this victim blaming (which you are, please stop trying to deny and twist it) must be to do with an agenda entirely unrelated to this thread, and I repeat, what has all this got to do with the agonisingly specific assault in her own bed that happened to Ashley???

macy said:

It is way past time this thread was closed.

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It's just so draining to read all these emotional posts. People are spilling their hearts out in some instances. Well some of the posts are upsetting people and understandably so because of certain insensitivity some of the posts are so worth reading because we all go through life.

Unfortunately, a few individuals on this website do not understand what sexual assault is. Let us consult the dictionary as to what constitutes to sexual assault:

“Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.”

Now, let me ask those who are confused, was it the verbiage? The concept? Well, let me explain it plain and simple: Coughlin touched Wagner inappropriately and sexually without having asked for her consent. Already, that is sexual assault. Secondly, those who are STILL confused might say, “But he stopped when she asked him to.” To that I say, did he ALREADY BEGIN touching Wagner BEFORE she said stop? The answer is: yes. Thus, by the simplest definition of what sexual assault is, Wagner was sexually assaulted and regardless of your viewpoint on either her or Coughlin, you cannot refute that.

Now, let us move onto the topic of, “Why did she wait so long?” Statistically speaking, most sexual assault survivors are simply afraid and do not talk about the trauma until very much later. However long is dependent on the individual. Furthermore, if you had not noticed, for the better part of human history, women have been taught that THEIR body, THEIR voice, THEIR being is NOT THEIRS. This toxic mentality (especially in the Asian community) has led to so many cases where women felt as though it would be BETTER to remain silent for fear of persecution. Thus, IT IS commendable when a woman comes forward and IT DOES show courage and bravery. For them, it might have been the most bravest thing they had ever done in their life.

Women should NOT have to live in fear and I urge the powerful women of today to live fearLESSLY because time is up on the ignorant fools who take advantage of others using fear, power, and authority. Those who take advantage of others in such a manner are cowards.

Last but not least, I urge everyone (including myself) to better understand where these ladies are coming from so that we can prevent such atrocities from occurring in such a rife manner. Also, let us try to understand the mindset of these predators so that we can teach those around us to look for the warning signs and get them the help they need as well. Let us educate ourselves and learn from the mistakes of the fools so that we can become wiser. That is all I have to say on the Wagner and Coughlin case. I send nothing but love and positivity towards Wagner for being so brave.

Mrs. P said:

I think this is a bit of a strawman. I have never seen anyone say "just be careless and do whatever you want."

The issue here is that sexual assault victims have felt the onus for FAR too long to carry the guilt of their assault because of the idea they didn't "do enough" or didn't "do the right thing." The movement, in my view is to encourage survivors to stop bearing so much guilt. That's not the same thing as say "don't worry and do whatever because you're protected."

There are efforts being made to help women defend themselves. Everything from consent presentations at colleges to self-defense classes from local gyms. You're seeing women signup for these classes at incredible numbers.

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The movement sometimes throws the baby with the bathwater. It may not intend to, but sometimes that's exactly how it's coming across. It loses balance.

Casual said:

The movement sometimes throws the baby with the bathwater. It may not intent to, but sometimes that's exactly how it's coming across. It loses balance.

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I find women more than ever going to GREAT lengths to protect themselves. I've had friends tell me not to go running after a certain hour. Again women signing up for self-defense classes in huge numbers. Women, unfortunately, are FAR to aware of the consequences of being careless.

It may come across that way to you, but I really think women can use a respite from the constant "you need to do this, this this this this" and "why didn't you do this this this this?" It can get really tiring.

ETA:

Friendly reminder that there is a thread for those of you who simply want to show support for Ashley and need a place to process.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...ort-for-Ashley-Wagner-(please-see-first-post)

Mrs.P I tried to post the following in the thread you linked, but got a message about an invalid thread.

My respect for Ashley has continually grown over the years and today it just skyrocketed. I admire her strength and courage and have faith in her as an agent for positive change.

Well, at least we all know who the rape apologists and victim blamers on this forum are. They should have that marked on their public profiles.

There are some appalling attitudes here.

Casual said:

The movement sometimes throws the baby with the bathwater. It may not intent to, but sometimes that's exactly how it's coming across. It loses balance.

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I just don‘t see where this supposed “go and do whatever you want and don‘t care about any dangers at all“ mentality you claim girls are being taught is happening. And I don‘t see how it matters in the context and situation Ashley provided. In fact, she said very clearly that she gave no signs whatsoever to even make him think that this would be okay. None. And even if she had flirted with him, or talked to him before, it still doesn’t excuse his behaviour. This whole, what was it, “night-time stroll naked across the street“ or whatever? For god’s sake, she just wanted to sleep in peace at a party where she knew everybody and thought it was safe.
She wasn’t wandering around in the streets alone.

Your obsession with “weakness“ and “teaching girls how to be strong“ is unsettling. And that mentality you claim girls are being raised with, I don‘t see it. I‘m still part of that generation of young women you‘re talking about. And contrary to what you say, we were raised way differently. We‘re being told never to leave out drinks unattended, always take a friend with you, never walk out alone, only in groups, if you see a girl who looks as if somebody could have put something into her drink, help her, don‘t ever leave any girl behind at parties... In school my class was one of the first to have had lessons in self defense. Now, I know, it‘s become regular business there. So, I‘d say, what you claim is happening, is just plain wrong, based on the behaviour of girls and young women around me and not only in my country. Awareness is increasing and we‘re ever becoming more careful. Of course, there are exceptions but you make it seem as if parents and teachers willingly let young girls put themselves in danger just to show them that “they can do anything and shouldn‘t worry“. Most of us can read the papers. We know this world is a dangerous place.

What we are being taught, however, is a far more important lesson than how to “be a strong girl“ (surprise, surprise, assault can happen to everybody, even Ashley Wagner who probably is the definition of a tough as nails kind of woman). We‘re finally being told that our voices matter. And that if something like this happens to us, it isn‘t our fault and we can and should speak up about it. That it isn‘t “the short dress“ or “the red lipstick“ that gives permission for anybody to do this. That silence isn‘t consent. That no woman would ever “ask for“ something like this. Frankly, I don‘t even know what you‘re trying to prove - there is no point at all. Of course everybody should look after themselves and make sure they don‘t get in any dangerous situations, if they can possibly avoid it. But the world is a dangerous place and you might as well tell people not to live anymore then and just lock themselves in. Again, Ashley was at a party where she knew everybody. She thought it was safe to go to sleep only to find out it wasn’t. Believe me, girls and women are very keen on protecting themselves (who would have thought lol) They‘re just tired of hearing what they should do differently and what they‘re doing wrongly when what is happening to them isn‘t their fault and should never, in no way, be blamed onto them.

Regardless of my personal opinions about Ashley as an athlete/competitor, she is objectively one of the strongest people in this sport, and proves that much here. I truly respect her courage in fighting to protect the younger generation from what she had to go through. Now, I won’t go as far as to say I’m glad that her abuser is...well, you know, but I do hope that she will someday be able to move on with her life and make peace with all that has happened to her.