Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

As a privileged male, I find it all so disillusioning and sickening how a lot of people, many of them being similarly privileged males, really think it's okay to doubt, mock, belittle, trivialize and blame victims of sexual assault, regardless of their gender but especially if they are women. And those common 'arguments' that are just instruments in victim blaming and silencing seriously need to go.

In Germany we have a skater Isaak Droysen who now accuses Karel Fajfr, a coach who was sentenced 20 years ago with abuse of minors in 1995, of exactly the same again when he was underage training with Fajfr. The scandal is that the german federation gave Fajfr after his sentence a job in Oberstdorf at the skating rink as a freelance coach where he gave lessons to minor skaters again. Fajfr is not allowed to go to Olympic Games up to this day. When the pair skaters Haylin/Wende skated in Sochi, Fajfr was not allowed to coach them there. he had to stay in Germany.

Droysen and his parents didnt know at all the sentence about Fajfr when Droysen started training there. They googled it afterwards.

The good thing about #MeToo is that these abuse cases need to go viral and internationally because it happens all over the place in our beloved sport. Abuse knows no boundaries and silence kills.

I will try and translate the German article in the Mainpost (a local newspaper) into English later on and share it here. If somebdy else has more articles about current and past cases it would be a good idea to share and talk about them, maybe.

LiamForeman said:

Why do you assume he touched her genitals? I didn't get that from her story. Yes, most 'normal' guys wouldn't do what he did, but who knows what happened throughout the night, maybe he misjudged a flirtation that wasn't there? We don't know. And she might not know either if she had too much to drink. But to what basically amounts to a drunk guy and drunk girl finding themselves in bed together and she kicks him out when he starts groping her, well, that happens all the time. Not saying it is right, but not much even happened.

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Eew

Edwin said:

As it these things don't exist in Russia!

From my experience with following Russian gymnastics and travelling to competitions, often staying at the same hotel with some delegation or the other, I know that the trainers are busy boozing and fornicating after competition, paying no attention to their pupils at all (who might very well do the same, running barely dressed through the corridors all night, celebrating from room to room).

On departure day everybody gathers in the lobby looking haggard and hung over before being brought back to the airport where the last of the pocket money is spent in the tax free on tobacco and liquor.

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Funny you are mentioning all those sleezy details you seems like had witnessed yourself. And at the same time you apprently invented Paseka's mariage in another post. Goes to your credibility.

I've been following gymnastics for 20+ years, I had been doing this sport in Israel for 12 years myself. But I have never ever seen yet such an ugly gossiping and lying about our Russian colleagues. Just wow...

How do you sleep at night? =)

Alexz said:

Funny you are mentioning all those sleezy details you seems like witnessed yourself. And at the same time invented Paseka's mariage in another post. Goes to your credibility.

I've been following gymnastics for 20 years, I had been doing this sport in Israel for 12 years myself. But I have never ever seen yet such an ugly gossiping and lying about our Russian colleagues. Just wow...

How do you sleep at night? =)

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I agree there was no reason to bring in specific other countries (though as I recall, it was a Russian poster who started it....) It's likely this sort of thing happened and probably is still happening in the shadows of all countries, because virtue and vice do not respect borders.

But this case is about Ashley and the man Coughlin, so can we not start a spat about yet another derail?

karne said:

So do you speak only good of Hitler and Stalin? Or do you not speak of them at all, which is just as bad?

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I think that I already answered this. If that post was moderated I shall say again that people who committed proven atrocities especially on the grand scale like Stalin and Hitler should be judged differently from common folks who cannot defend themselves after they die. And, yes, I do not speak good about either of them. And I do not speak good about other "monsters" some of whom are well-praised in their respective countries with multiple stuff named after them.

el henry said:

The Knierims did not. Please post a direct link to the original post and to Chris and Alexa's response to where they blamed the victim. The second hand screen shots that I see on Twitter these days do not say this, and it is troubling to me to see this mischaracterization spread.

I salute Ashley Wagner. I wish her the very best on this journey and in speaking her truth.

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https://twitter.com/xosarahmarieeee/status/1156937217379569666/photo/1

nussnacker said:

OT, but since this website is often referenced here, I went to check it not too long ago.
I read a few blogs there and there are quite a few interesting and entertaining ones, that are not toxic or hateful at all, on contrary very neutral to skaters, post a lot of interesting information and some very humorous (in a kind way) takes on competitions and skaters.
Comments seem not to be moderated in general, and I assume sexual assault news are posted to a wider audience than skating fans, hence, there's a space for some toxic misogyny to pour out from possibly fans of other sports (I assume?).
not to claim anything here as I didn't have much experience with this website, I feel like it has some good blogs (and good people?) there as well.

Samkrut, Flanker, guys, I usually agree with your points, but I have to disagree here.
I have to say, if a lady feels uncomfortable and the man made her feel uncomfortable with touching/kissing, it is an assault.
I cannot stand an idea of some dude doing something to my teen niece in the middle of the night, little girls are vulnerable and I fear for her experiencing anything similar, hence I feel very sorry for Ashley to having to go through this.
Whether she is a credible source or not, it's not up to us to judge.
There've been multiple complains raised about John's behavior, including minors, Ashley is one of them (not minors, but complaints).
If it was just one person, it could be up to debate, there are multiple, which leaves little room for doubting whether John actually had some dangerous patterns in his behavior.

Ashley would not surge to popularity because of this, like Namiotka didnot, they will get no benefit of sharing their stories, but will probably feel bad reliving those experiences.

While to some what he did might seem not as bad, since he stopped when Ashley asked, he shouldn't have allowed himself in her bed in the first place, that's not right.
He might have been drunk/accidentally mistaken her for someone else, it can be possible. It would've been a whole different story, had John not had the string of allegations against him.
Since he does, all of the cases that will come into light will be viewed differently. Whether or not he actually intended to assault Ashley, he did make her feel very uncomfortable, and taking into account a bigger picture, it seems rather intentional.

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And where I say the difference? If I had a daughter and someone would dare to do this to her, I would forget all about my legal profession and... (I think I don't need to go into details). Everything I'm saying is that I always apply reasonable amount of doubt about any public statement that wasn't properly investigated/tested. Insisting on presumption of innocence is not approving bad behaviour, it is exacly what it is, presumption of innocence. As I have said, there is strong experience with violating that in my country (Austro-Hungary, german occupation, communist regime) and it makes you to value it more because you know what it takes when it is not respected properly, not only in legal sense, but in public sphere as a whole. E. g. during 1950's not only that people were sentenced on problematic matters but also there were public petitions asking for "the strictest punishing of traitors of the people" etc. So I just don't like when people's good name, their future, life, freedom etc. should hang on statements and vawe of public lynch (made by people who weren't there and rely just on words of one person). Go see danish movie The Hunt (Jagten).

macy said:

It is way past time this thread was closed.

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Or, with all due respect, it is way past time for you to read or comment on this thread. And then you can stop commenting on this thread, right? It sounds a win for you and this board, no?

I have a question: what is going to happen to USFSA now?
These abuse cases had been happening on their watch. Seems like they did not cultivated or created this kind of culture like Karolys did in gymnastics. But somehow the same thing happened. This culture allowed underage teens to sneak out from Olympic base and from their hotel and got in troubles. With coaches and fed adults without even knowing and caring.

Parents allowed their kids to travel to Colorado Olympic base and to train to be an Olympian to represent our country in future. They trusted their kids with USFSA coaches and Colorado Springs training base stuff. And what did they got in return? Underage drinking, partying late without adult suppervision and sexually assaulted teens. According to Ashley her dad is a strict military man, so naturally the moment she was out in the wild she wanted to party. In her spare time outside of the monotonous trainnig process she choose to be a perfect teenager - she decided to go to the join her underage friends and party in their older colleagues' house. Can't blame her. Been there done that myself. Problem is this was happening on USFSA's watch.

Teenagers do mistakes. Adults are capabale of them as well. But these are not just mistakes done by teenagers, and this is not a case of simple overlooking by coache(s). This is systematic negligence and culture which allowed sexual predator to operate. Gosh, who knows how many of them are not yet discovered or swept under the rag.

Caughlin is certainly a guilty one here, he is a horrible discusting man. Ok. But my question to USFSA is simple: how in the world they allowed this to happen?

More questions. How come USFSA allowed him to pray for so long? How many eyes were turned blind? Who they were? Why Ashley was so afraid to report this abuse right away? Why this environment and culture were allowed to excist? Why underage athletes entrusted to USFSA by their parents are allowed to freely come and leave training enviroment and their hotels as they please? What kind of training camp was that where Olympic-potential athletes are partying and drinking at nights? What kind of operation USFSA is runnning there where athletes are free to do a lot of things unreleated to sport at all. And where they are allowed to do even things which dirctly hurt their health and degrade sport results and physical shape. What kind of sport is this where underage athletes are drinking alchohol and being sexually abused? Tnis is not figure skating US taxpayers want to see when our taxes are partially supporting Colorado Springs Olympic traning center.

No wonder US have such poor results in figure skating lately (except Nathan Chen. Thanks for him, oh dear Universe). Something is wrong with USFSA.

Wow, the level of violence in this thread.

I just want to say cheers to Ashley for her courage. Not everyone can speak like she did.

Bye.

I admire Ashley for her courage. Discussions won't change what happened to her. It wasn't rape. Fine. But a 17 year old can be emotionally hurt when things like this happen. Let's put aside different mentalities or different reactions.
I think that too many people grow up in a bubble with no or little awareness that everyone is capable to do terrible things to other people. There's no such thing as black or white,people constantly live in grey areas. Society's habits and moral rules are often bypassed . Sometimes a good reputation hides a monster and a bad reputation hides a good person. Resilience is what matters. And as far as I can see Ashley is a resilient person.

Alexz said:

No wonder US have such poor results in figure skating lately (except Nathan Chen. Thanks for him, oh dear Universe). Something is wrong with USFSA.

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Please do not make the mistake of conflating abuse/corruption with results (or a lack thereof). Remember that under Nassar and the Karolyis, the US Gymnastics team had amazing results. Abuse is abuse, and competitive results are generally unrelated - though in USAG’s case, the great success of the results probably encouraged all of the adults involved to cover up for the abusers as much as possible, because gold medals were more important than the safety of the young athletes.

USFS needs to have a reckoning over this, in my opinion. Dalilah Sappenfield in particular showed that she was completely unwilling to believe that Coughlin could have done anything wrong. I would not want her to coach my daughter (if I had one), because I would think that she is not safe with Dalilah. And I’m sure there are other adults in the sport who turn a blind eye to troubling behavior (or engage in it themselves). All institutions are prone to abuse. But they have to prove themselves willing to root it out with transparency and change. USAG is struggling to do so now. USFS probably won’t yet, since they are under much less scrutiny at this time.

What a sad case, and it seems to be just the tip of the iceberg. It has fortunately not happened to me or anyone in my family/friends yet, but I imagine this is a widespread issue throughout sports, entertainment industry, everywhere. Since I've never been in such a situation, who am I to judge if someone speaks up years after an assault happened. People deal with trauma differently. It should be spoken about. Victims shouldn't be intimidated into silence. They should have an option to report immediately, and the investigation should be quick, before more people get assaulted. And yes, what Ashley describes classifies as an assault for me. Nothing should prevent a thorough investigation and a just punishment - neither power and money, nor popularity, nor 'good family' or 'good conduct' etc. The sooner the governing bodies enable this, the better for the society as a whole.

But at the same time, at least one of the posters most condemn here, hits on something important: there should be a proper, legal investigation. Now, I am not speaking about this particular case anymore, because it seems clear enough that this was an ongoing pattern for JC. But I am worried that the accusing in general may be a double edged sword. On the one hand, the accusers' accounts shouldn't be distrusted, dismissed or made light of. On the other hand, I can actually imagine a situation where someone accuses another person of sexual misconduct - but falsely, with a malicious intent. If the accuser's words were to be automatically taken as the truth, the falsely accused may lose their career and family, go through emotional pain, and even if their name is cleared afterwards, the shadow of suspicion from the public may be there forever. For that reason I personally avoid taking a stance initially, unless a case is very clear.

Alexz said:

No wonder US have such poor results in figure skating lately (except Nathan Chen. Thanks for him, oh dear Universe). Something is wrong with USFSA.

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Sorry for replying off-topic, but I don't think of the results as bad at all? The results of Bradie, Jason, Vincent, Hubbel/Donohue and others, I don't see them as poor.

Casual said:

Forcible means "by force". He didn't force her, and by her laying quietly, he might have assumed she acquiesced. As soon as she spoke up, he stopped.

We don't know what happened earlier at the party. Still wrong, and men should be taught from the early age NOT to get sexual without explicit verbal consent. "Looks", "jokes", "flirting", whatever, never justifies crawling into someone's bed. Thinking "she wanted it" is NOT a justification for anything, unless she explicitly says so. They need to be taught!

However, we do know that he worked up very gradually, and she kept silent. He didn't force her, and stopped as soon as asked. "Silence means consent", or as the Romans said, qui tacet consentire videtur, "he who is silent is taken to agree". This is why it's such a tricky situation.

He was wrong to crawl into bed without asking (even if he mistakenly believed she let him know earlier that she'd like him to). She was wrong to keep silent until almost the last moment. Both needed better educating on these matters, IMHO.

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Have you ever heard of being frozen with fear? One of the most horrifying things I can think of is being attacked while sleeping. And add to that, she was only 17. And what kind of educating do you suggest? Nothing can prepare someone for a situation like this.

pearly said:

I honestly think that all opinions on this matter in this day and age are not equally valuable and some do not belong in this thread. Allowing certain users to speak their mind, blame, shame and question victims creates an environment in which John Coughlin, Larry Nassar and others go on and get away with their abuse for years.

Smakrut, Flanker, Casual, Liam - I truly believe in karma and fear the day your words written here will start to haunt you. I hope, for her sake, that there is never, ever that little girl in your future who one day has to come forward, say something, and be questioned whether she was really asleep or she was just pretending. Whether he only kissed her on the neck once or went further.

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Well said.

While I understand cultures can differ, as humans the morals behind what has happened to Ashley and others just aren’t up for debate.

No human should ever exert control over another for personal gain. If you believe differently you are wrong, you were taught wrong and your moral compass needs to be corrected.

ruffledgrouse said:

Consent and Tea

I share this video every chance I get because what happened to Ashley is so common, and there's always so much confusion over how to classify these attacks.



John tried to pour the tea down Ashley's throat. That's that.

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This is a great video, which I also share often.

brightphoton said:

I would also like to add that it took a famous and widely-beloved skater like Ashley Wagner to come forward with her own allegations before US Figure Skating decided to make policy changes. When SafeSport first started the investigation, and 3 not-famous and not-widely beloved skaters make accusations, John Coughlin still happily gave private lessons at the USFS-sanctioned Road to Gold skating seminar, and this was a-ok by USFS.

http://comp.entryeeze.com/SingleRinkSched.aspx?id=1417

Later, there were 6 or 7 other not-famous accusers, but I don't know if USFS decided to ignore them or take action before Ashley Wagner came forward.

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Thank you for pointing this out. I've been wondering how Bridget Namiotka feels. You shouldn't have to be a well-known skater to be believed.

pearly said:

I honestly think that all opinions on this matter in this day and age are not equally valuable and some do not belong in this thread. Allowing certain users to speak their mind, blame, shame and question victims creates an environment in which John Coughlin, Larry Nassar and others go on and get away with their abuse for years.

Smakrut, Flanker, Casual, Liam - I truly believe in karma and fear the day your words written here will start to haunt you. I hope, for her sake, that there is never, ever that little girl in your future who one day has to come forward, say something, and be questioned whether she was really asleep or she was just pretending. Whether he only kissed her on the neck once or went further.

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So, you are basically saying that presumption of innocence is a bad thing and people should be publicly judged without even having proper trial. Let's cancel all courts, all law, from now only crowd (or "people's tribunals" as it was called) will decide who is to blame, who has the right to speak, whose comments are worth and whose are not. That's the experience we made in the past and I see that there are still people who would like to apply that. No, thanks, it seems that people will never learn, they are doomed to do the same mistakes again and again.

And I do not believe in karma, there is nothing like higher justice, only the one that people would apply, therefore they need to be very careful when they judge the others. When people make a mistake (bad judgement), nobody else will correct it.