Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

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Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
I’m truly horrified how many people here are trying to defend this situation.

It’s sickening and I can only imagine that some people defending Coughlin have possibility done something similar in nature and are now just trying to assuage their guilt.

Guess what folks, it was assault. She never gave him permission to touch her, to kiss her, or to be groped. She wasn’t asking for it and she didn’t deserve it. There was no consent, or implied consent since she was asleep.

Horrified plain and simple.

Ziotic, the fact that you "can only imagine that some people defending Coughlin have possibility done something similar in nature and are now just trying to assuage their guilt" indicates severe lack of imagination (or worldly experience) on your part, nothing more.

For the record, I'm a full blown ball-busting FEMINIST. Mmmkay? Women are just as smart and strong, mentally, intellectually, emotionally, whatever, as men. 100% gender equality, 100% mutual respect, 100% accountability, 100% equal power.

This is why I do NOT give a pass to girls for being "weak" "victims" of a "corrupt system" (stop whimpering and grow some balls, ladies). And similarly, this is why I do NOT give a pass to "just boys" (hey, knuckleheads, educate yourselves on how to behave, before someone snips your peckers off, LOL).

It disgusts me when the knee-jerk reaction is to disbelieve the accusers. Still, I find the opposite extreme ridiculous. Painting girls as shrinking violets, and a misguided moron (who should have known better but stopped when asked) as a nefarious scheming monster of no redemption, is not helping the cause.

"Horrified", "sickening", whatever other emotions this situation evokes in you, still doesn't make it into something it was not. It was not rape. It was not forcible assault. And I have serious doubts that the perpetrator in this case had even fully understood what he was actually doing.
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
For me it is horrible to make allegations against someone who can't defend himself. You may refuse samkrut's words about "russian mentality", but I can say that people here in the middle and eastern Europe know very well what does it mean being sentenced without eveidence/on the basic of false evidence. Therefore we know that presumption of innocence and proper legal process are not formalities but essential elements of the society. Public lynch based on someone's unverified claim is definitely not right.
The 4 original accusers made their complaints while John Coughlin was still alive. Coughlin decided to kill himself instead of defending himself.

Added to that, 3 of the accusers have decided to go to court after Safe Sport announced they were stopping investigations. The 3 accusers going to court despite the overwhelming support for Coughlin shows how serious they are.
 

pearly

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
This thread should be locked. Comments comparing Ashley's situation to being patted on the back as assault is sickening.

I don’t think the thread should be locked, but some people should be banned from posting in it. Moderators, how are some of these posts acceptable?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Okay it seems the conversation over the legal ramifications of Ashley’s story and people’s reaction to Ashley’s story is getting intertwined here.

I think it’s reasonable to be saddened, horrified or feel a number of emotions hearing about what Ashley experienced without having to define the legal technicalities of what happened. That’s a whole separate matter and I don’t see what’s to gain in using it to disregard people’s feelings about the whole thing.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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What saddens me most is that some posters I presume to be male defend Coughlin and his actions and belittle Wagner and her motivation to speak out now.
This means to me these posters hold the same moral standards and would most likely do the same in said situation.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
For anyone who thinks that maybeeee Ashley gave consent for John to do anything, sorta, kinda, implicitly -- she didn't. Here's her own words:

I completely agree that "Ashley" didn't give consent.

I disagree that "John" thought he didn't get consent. We don't know that. The subsequent events indicate that he could have thought he got it, at least implicitly (and then he stopped, when it was explicitly revoked).
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
This is why I do NOT give a pass to girls for being "weak" "victims" of a "corrupt system" (stop whimpering and grow some balls, ladies). And similarly, this is why I do NOT give a pass to "just boys" (hey, knuckleheads, educate yourselves on how to behave, before someone snips your peckers off, LOL).

The fact is that "the system" is real, and countless young women are raised + trained by society (their parents, the media, etc.) to obey men, not to fight back. Sure, girls of mine and Ashley's generation were usually warned away from walking alone at night, the danger of being assaulted by a stranger in a dark alley, but no one taught us what to do when SOMEONE YOU TRUST assaults you. Young women aren't taught how to deal with confrontation. That's not "feminine." Why do you think Ashley tried everything other than pushing Coughlin away until she finally did that? She pretended to be asleep first. Then she pretended to be waking up. Young women are taught to avoid confrontation. And generally with good reason, because pushing a man away from you, or telling him no or to stop, runs the very real risk of physical violence, and when a man is a lot bigger and stronger than you, it's terrifying.

And we are taught that if someone we trust DOES assault us, it's probably our fault (either because of alcohol, or flirting, or dressing a certain way, or whatever). There's a whole cycle of panic and guilt and shame and feeling like you are the one to blame for what is happening to you.

I hope the women of later generations than mine and Ashley's are taught better. But you need to understand that what women are up against right now IS systemic.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
The sad thing is, Ashley was right when she said "I genuinely didn't feel like anyone would listen to me anyway". If Ashley had spoken up when she was 17, who would have believed her? No one. She would've met the same fate as the other unlucky first accusers, ignored, scolded, the whole situation swept under the rung, with the skating community hugging John and giving him money.

When she was 17 (~2008), Ashley was a nobody. She was not the great Ashley Wagner as we know her now : Olympian, World medalist, multi-National champion, with 239 sponsorships, beloved by everyone. At age 17, she was in the same situation as the first 3 accusers. The highest praise for her was that she was a promising junior skater. Depending on the timeline of the groping, you could perhaps say that she was Ashley Wagner, skater who did terribly at her first World's and helped the US go down to 2 spots on the World's team.

You only have to read the sympathetic messages and outpouring of money on John's funeral and legal expense fundraising page to see that no, the accusers were not believed.
https://www.gofundme.com/john-coughlin-funeral-services

One could make the argument that in 2008, Coughlin was also not the great John Coughlin as he was known to be either, simply a promising seniors pair skater, but there you go.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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You only have to read the sympathetic messages and outpouring of money on John's funeral and legal expense fundraising page to see that no, the accusers were not believed.
https://www.gofundme.com/john-coughlin-funeral-services

Why would a white middle class Kansas City family even need to raise funds for a funeral? Was Coughlin himself so poor or in debt? Legal expense? AFIAK nobody pressed charges against the estate and giving the mounting evidence it is unlikely the estate will sue any of the accusers for slander?

Is USFS being sued, like USAG/USOC are being sued by Nassar survivors?
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
agreed. These people are disgusting and I pray they don't or never have kids who are girls/women.

I pray that kids who are girls/women are taught better on how to defend themselves; and that kids who are boys/men are taught better on what constitutes sexual assault and how to respect boundaries.

We should strive to teach kids and people of all genders about affirmative consent, and also about personal accountability. First, know the rules. Second, know how to protect yourself if someone breaks the rules.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
Ziotic, the fact that you "can only imagine that some people defending Coughlin have possibility done something similar in nature and are now just trying to assuage their guilt" indicates severe lack of imagination (or worldly experience) on your part, nothing more.

For the record, I'm a full blown ball-busting FEMINIST. Mmmkay? Women are just as smart and strong, mentally, intellectually, emotionally, whatever, as men. 100% gender equality, 100% mutual respect, 100% accountability, 100% equal power.

This is why I do NOT give a pass to girls for being "weak" "victims" of a "corrupt system" (stop whimpering and grow some balls, ladies). And similarly, this is why I do NOT give a pass to "just boys" (hey, knuckleheads, educate yourselves on how to behave, before someone snips your peckers off, LOL).

It disgusts me when the knee-jerk reaction is to disbelieve the accusers. Still, I find the opposite extreme ridiculous. Painting girls as shrinking violets, and a misguided moron (who should have known better but stopped when asked) as a nefarious scheming monster of no redemption, is not helping the cause.

"Horrified", "sickening", whatever other emotions this situation evokes in you, still doesn't make it into something it was not. It was not rape. It was not forcible assault. And I have serious doubts that the perpetrator in this case had even fully understood what he was actually doing.

I get what you're trying to say.

I would want to note that there are cases of miscommunications between guys and girls (users, please don't label me as anything right now and try to read further).
I remember reading the case of Aziz Ansari that didn't seem like a case a deliberate sexual assault, but rather a case of two adults misreading signals from each other.
Two flirted for weeks, went on a date, went to his apartment after a dinner and he started getting sexual, she asked to stop, he did.
She later told him he made her feel uncomfortable and that their interactions, his words and signs were forced to her, made her uncomfortable, he apologized as he did not mean to make her uncomfortable. (she also contacted news outlet about Aziz sexually assaulting her)
Given the context (flirting-date-going to his apartment) Aziz misunderstood her signals as sexual, she however saw situation differently.
I am not comparing the cases, this is just an example.

I feel like generally, there are cases where socially awkward guys can misinterpret signals and think it's inviting them to something, try to do something and when they realize it's not, they back off. It's not because they're predators, but some guys can be creepy/weird/socially awkward/act irresponsibly when drunk, but mean no harm otherwise. (Same for ladies) But I don't think this is a case with John.

THAT BEING SAID
I could've possibly(?) tried to give John benefit of the doubt, whether or not he was drunk and did think Ashley was someone else/(his gf?), if only this was the sole and first case against him
However, it's not, there are multiple accusers, Ashley mentions no flirting or any interactions of such sort, which makes his actions seem deliberate.

I see what Liam and Casual try to explain, that not every case is exactly the same and sometimes cases of assault vary in degrees and some stem from other things possibly, not necessarily all of them have malicious intentions.
But since John already had people accusing him, it makes it a whole different case and we cannot see what happened to Ashley in isolation.


Hence, guys, while I understand what you mean, I believe this case is different and John is indeed more than guilty and had malicious intentions.
 

DenissVFan

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
What saddens me most is that some posters I presume to be male defend Coughlin and his actions and belittle Wagner and her motivation to speak out now.
This means to me these posters hold the same moral standards and would most likely do the same in said situation.

What is especially concerning is that a great many active figure skaters are young girls and women and that such views are held by their fans.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Several of the comments here are really awful.

Ashley is very brave to come forward. Her reasons for doing so are admirable- there are changes that need to be made to protect young skaters. Changes that many are resistant to. I am in the Adult Competitive Skater facebook group and there was recently a really heated argument about Safe Sports new rules that ban adult participants from being social media friends with minors or private messaging minors. I was called callous by an adult male skater for defending these new rules and questioning why an adult needs to be social media friends with a minor.

It is not anyone's place to doubt Ashley and questioning whether or not what happened to her was assault is gross. She was a 17 year old girl and John was a 22 year old man. He thought she was sleeping and inappropriately touched her. She felt like she couldn't say anything because of how he was viewed and how the sport might view her. There is something really wrong with that. And drinking is not a free pass to touch someone.

When I was in graduate school I did a medical internship in Cape Town. By the time I arrived at where I was staying for the first few weeks (a hostel) I was exhausted. I was excited to be there though and after a nap went out to explore with several of the people there. I had 2 drinks at a bar and was really tired. When we got back to the hostel one of the men who worked there and had gone out with us held onto me and started kissing me. I tried to be nice and get away from him but he persisted. He knew I was tired and had been drinking. Finally I pushed him away and ran inside. He hung around me at the backpacker until I moved to a house for visiting medical students. This happened over 5 years ago and I still remember how I felt when he grabbed me without my consent. The only reason I am telling this story is because I know many women have similar (or worse) stories.

I hope someone as prominent in the sport as Ashley speaking out helps younger skaters realize that they too can speak out if someone harms or tries to harm them. That alone is so important. No one has permission to touch another person without that persons consent.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
What is especially concerning is that a great many active figure skaters are young girls and women and that such views are held by their fans.

True. And since it seems a couple of my more verbal posting in this thread concerning Russia's sports and culture have been moderated, despite my most careful wordings, I feel the problem is greatly underestimated outside of USA and Europe.
 

fzztsimmons

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Ziotic, the fact that you "can only imagine that some people defending Coughlin have possibility done something similar in nature and are now just trying to assuage their guilt" indicates severe lack of imagination (or worldly experience) on your part, nothing more.

For the record, I'm a full blown ball-busting FEMINIST. Mmmkay? Women are just as smart and strong, mentally, intellectually, emotionally, whatever, as men. 100% gender equality, 100% mutual respect, 100% accountability, 100% equal power.

This is why I do NOT give a pass to girls for being "weak" "victims" of a "corrupt system" (stop whimpering and grow some balls, ladies). And similarly, this is why I do NOT give a pass to "just boys" (hey, knuckleheads, educate yourselves on how to behave, before someone snips your peckers off, LOL).

It disgusts me when the knee-jerk reaction is to disbelieve the accusers. Still, I find the opposite extreme ridiculous. Painting girls as shrinking violets, and a misguided moron (who should have known better but stopped when asked) as a nefarious scheming monster of no redemption, is not helping the cause.

"Horrified", "sickening", whatever other emotions this situation evokes in you, still doesn't make it into something it was not. It was not rape. It was not forcible assault. And I have serious doubts that the perpetrator in this case had even fully understood what he was actually doing.


A friend of mine from university said no when a guy tried it on with her. She tried to push him away when he came on to her. Do you know what happened? He pinned her down and raped her anyway.
There are a hundred different reasons why a girl/women's first reaction is not to fight back. Girls are not "weak" if they are frozen with fear in a horrendous situation. You are implying that if they had "fought harder" they wouldn't have gotten attacked. You may as well be saying "it's because they wore a short skirt".
And it was forceable. She was asleep. She could in no way asked him to start touching her. He got into bed, on top of her and touched her without her being able to respond. It doesn't matter whether he stopped later. It. Was. Sexual. Assault. And. It's. Not. Ok.
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
There’s no reason for me to believe Coughlin did anything bad. Even with Ashley’s story he stopped when she asked.

This. Is... I have no words.

Yes, I do.

If she had been truly unconscious, by your reasoning he would have been quite justified in keeping going with whatever acts he wanted to do? Including full intercourse - after all, even someone who can't speak has to ASK not to be groped, or it's implied consent?

He should never have started. He should never have even entered her room. Any man with a shred of decency knows that.

How can you be certain he didn't think he had her full consent (misguided as he was)? As soon as she asked, he stopped - that's a very important part of this story, too.

HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. HE WAITED TILL HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP.

And my ignore list has been going up by leaps and bounds since this thread started...
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
The fact is that "the system" is real, and countless young women are raised + trained by society (their parents, the media, etc.) to obey men, not to fight back. Sure, girls of mine and Ashley's generation were usually warned away from walking alone at night, the danger of being assaulted by a stranger in a dark alley, but no one taught us what to do when SOMEONE YOU TRUST assaults you. Young women aren't taught how to deal with confrontation. That's not "feminine." Why do you think Ashley tried everything other than pushing Coughlin away until she finally did that? She pretended to be asleep first. Then she pretended to be waking up. Young women are taught to avoid confrontation. And generally with good reason, because pushing a man away from you, or telling him no or to stop, runs the very real risk of physical violence, and when a man is a lot bigger and stronger than you, it's terrifying.

And we are taught that if someone we trust DOES assault us, it's probably our fault (either because of alcohol, or flirting, or dressing a certain way, or whatever). There's a whole cycle of panic and guilt and shame and feeling like you are the one to blame for what is happening to you.

I hope the women of later generations than mine and Ashley's are taught better. But you need to understand that what women are up against right now IS systemic.

You are right. It's hard for me to understand it, though. Because my upbringing was not like that. In my family, women held positions of power (including over men), often made more money than men, were educated just as well as men (scientists, artists, etc.), and in general, were raised EQUAL to men in all respects. The idea that "confrontation is not feminine" was simply not part of our vocabulary (scientific debate is gender-blind, and the truth is found inside the debate, so...).

But I appreciate your point. And this is actually why it disappoints me when I see current young 'uns apparently thinking they should simultaneously stand up for their rights not to be groped (good!), and also play the part of a shrinking violet with no agency of her own (bad!).
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. HE WAITED TILL HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP.

How do you know that? There's a big difference between someone actually "asleep", and someone "pretending to be asleep". And often it's easy to tell the difference.

How do you know he didn't know she was just pretending? Or that he wasn't trying to wake her up, and thought he did, and that she allowed him to proceed?

It's so easy to condemn, but we just don't know, what he thought when he did it.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
One can extrapolate or transform any thought or even proverb to the level of absurdity. I find it degrading to explain such things. I shall try it anyway, hopefully, one time only. You cannot compare historical figures responsible for lives of nations with those who were accused of an attempted assault years after when they cannot talk back because they are dead. Isn't it simple?

But even with historical figures there was hardly a person in the 19th century responsible for more death and suffering than Napoleon. Yet, his reputation is much better than that of Hitler.

Why is that? Napoleon was a monster too.

I am so sorry for what Ashley went through at age 17 11 years ago. She had to be so shocked and stunned.

I'm also sorry John Coughlin took his own life and never got the help he needed so he didn't hurt as many people as he may have including himself. Tragic.
 
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