The Tutberidze Effect | Page 10 | Golden Skate

The Tutberidze Effect

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
Genetic inclination to and overall aptitude of particular ethnic groups in certain sports can be statistically proven.

When is the last time you've seen a white caucasian win in 100, 200 or 400 meter sprint?
All of those USSR and GDR triumphs feil through because their athletes were 'doctored' and ran on 'chemics'.

Athletics is a cheep kind of sport, you only need a pair of trainers, and in some of the poorest countries, the young runners even train barefoot on dirt tracks. Some goes for boxing, many ball games and more that can be practised cheaply using only minimal facilities.

FS, gymnastics, swimming, etc. are expensive because of the required infrastructure and specialised trainers, so it mostly has kids from more affluent parents practise it. Esp. in the west where sports are mostly a privately owned commercial businesses.

Many team sports are practised at a decent level in schools, high schools and colleges, feeding talent to an overall program on national level if there are competent governing bodies.

But what if a NOC like Jamaica has unlimited funds and wants to put its stamp on worldwide figure skating?

Setting up their own Crystal Dome to study and apply the Tutberidze Effect to athletes from a whole different gene pool?

Traditional dance will suffice for choreography and physical fitness. Since classical ballet and its aesthetics of posture and extension and is considered traditionally western and white? What will the result be? Athletes of impressive physical prowess but no more than jumping jocks? The ISU rules shouldn't discriminate against any cultural image, dance and expression, but subconsciously still do in the minds of the majority of judges.

It would certainly be interesting and innovative, and not sedate at all, unlike the perceived image of figure skating as only being pretty petite and curvy young women drawing scrolls and serpentines on ice.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Coaches who often see skaters training at international competitions (Eteri, TAT, Goncharenko) notice that Asians and Asian Americans have a particular attitude to their work. Nina Mozer suggested that Asians have a more sturdy structure of muscules, but personally, I found her hypothesis far-fetched.

I agree. Her interview is ... very strange, as for me. And when I read up to this point:

"In my life I have seen thousands of competitions, trainings, workouts, I saw moments of falls, injuries. If an Asian falls, he gets up, wipes a bruised place - and drove on. Fell a European from any country will be at least a sprain, and as a maximum, fractures or tears of the ligaments. We have surprisingly become fragile. Or is it just genetics like that. But if earlier in the USSR cooperation between sports and science was established, some things were analyzed, now we are working on a hunch, on the basis of our own knowledge and feelings. In China, children with the edited genome have already been born." (?????????????????????)

- I'm like and stop carefuly reading. Yeah, here the PC-principal from southpark would definitely not hurt :laugh: What kind of jelly does this lady have in her head?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No one says "Asians are good at math".

I just Googled "Asians are good at math" and got 2.8 million referrals to people discussing the question of why everyone says Asians are good at math.

Doesn't make it true, of course, but I don't think I am far off in saying that this is a common meme in the U.S. (I hesitated to write that because I am not 100% sure as to what a "meme" is. ;) )

By the way, Russians are good at chess. Statistics proves it.
 
Last edited:

Orlov

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Joined
Jun 19, 2018
I just Googled "Asians are good at math" and got 2.8 million referrals to people discussing the question of why everyone says Asians are good at math.

Doesn't make it true, of course, but I don't think I am far off in saying that this is a common meme in the U.S. (I hesitated to write that because I am not 100% sure as to what a "meme" is. ;) )

The crowd is always stupid, it does not prove anything. The correct answer to these requests is “These are not Asians good in mathematics, these are white Americans are lazy” :laugh: And a more serious answer, I repeat - US have problems in education at all levels, starting with instilling the right values of youth. Therefore, in the sciences and arts that require perseverance, monotonous work, and many years of activity that do not give direct results and pleasure, Asians are winning in US, just simply because their parents immigrants (or descendants of immigrants) have not yet lost the necessary mentality in "melting pot".

But looking from this angle is painful for the self-esteem of an white American, so he comes up with myths that "Asians are better at ...". Yes, they are better, but only because they have strict families with Confucian values - respect for elders and acceptance of their will, desire for education.

"They are better because they work, and you do not. Sincerely, your Google."
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Genetic inclination to and overall aptitude of particular ethnic groups in certain sports can be statistically proven.

Numbers don't lie. Studies of anatomy, social attitudes, etc. are interesting.

Still, I think it doesn't hurt to be cautious in drawing conclusions.

The Dutch are good at speed skating but bad at figure skating. Is there a Dutch gene that makes Dutchmen fast but ungraceful? Is there cultural pressure on Dutchmen always to go in a straight line and that discourages them from spinning around in the same spot? Maybe historically the Netherlands had long straight frozen canals ideal for long races, but not many wide frozen ponds for practicing figures?

As interesting as these questions are, sometimes I think an equally satisfactory answer is, it just turned out that way. Indians are really good at ladies badminton. I don't think that adherence to the tenets of Hinduism plays a role. (but who knows?)
 

Edwin

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Numbers don't lie. Studies of anatomy, social attitudes, etc. are interesting.

Still, I think it doesn't hurt to be cautious in drawing conclusions.

The Dutch are good at speed skating but bad at figure skating. Is there a Dutch gene that makes Dutchmen fast but ungraceful? Is there cultural pressure on Dutchmen always to go in a straight line and that discourages them from spinning around in the same spot? Maybe historically the Netherlands had long straight frozen canals ideal for long races, but not many wide frozen ponds for practicing figures?

As interesting as these questions are, sometimes I think an equally satisfactory answer is, it just turned out that way. Indians are really good at ladies badminton. I don't think that adherence to the tenets of Hinduism plays a role. (but who knows?)

Dutch speed skating profited highly from applied science, the skaters have been studied in every detail, boots, blades, suits, the ice itself, it has all been meticulously and methodically studied to get and keep this advantage akin to studies of the Tutberidze Effect.

Same with our track cyclists, but both speed- and short track skaters and those cyclists lend themselves best for a scientific approach since they train and competed in fixed buildings under stable conditions.
Ideal laboratory for a study of the Tutberidze Effect:
tweaking all parameters to get maximum results.

But where did Shani Davis come from then, one of the best all around speed skaters ever? At least he is from Northern Michigan, so he knows what winter is, and that was probably his predisposition.

I don't think we (I am Dutch) are genetically predestined for speed skating, it is just a big part of our culture, or rather was, since we hardly have 'skating winters' anymore and ovals are not within everybody's reach. Yes, my country is only small, but kids still have to be brought and taken back by their parents. With the lack of real winters, the number of small kids that actively learn (speed ) skating by the hand of their parents or behind a chair will drastically drop and that will no doubt affect the future of speed skating in The Netherlands.
Also, professional speed skaters got a little pampered with all these closed ovals, with their perfect conditions, and forgot how to fight the elements, or use them to your advantage on an open air track.

And it the general public's eye, the sport is boring, very boring even in the long distances. ISU did its best to make it more attractive by adding (mixed) relay races, mass start races, team pursuit races to the program after IOC did consider dropping speed skating form the Games.

BTW, we did have some good ladies in FS, but now it seems they competed in the 'stone age' of our sport.

Middle Asian badminton just soared because it was popular with boys and girls in school, middle school, high school, university, you could practice it anywhere at any time. It isn't an expensive sport either. It was socially acceptable, advisable perhaps even to let your child practice badminton or table tennis.

Bow and arrow, pistol and rifle shooting is the domain of Far Eastern (KOR especially) because they remain the calmest under stress apparently and the sport is popular there.

Another sport I highly value and admire is fencing, highly technical, mentally demanding and physically exhausting but stuck in traditions. Would such a sport ever be able to progress itself?
 

Edwin

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The lone white swan I forgot about and she even is from The Netherlands.
 

Baron Vladimir

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Dec 18, 2014
Genetic inclination to and overall aptitude of particular ethnic groups in certain sports can be statistically proven.

When is the last time you've seen a white caucasian win in 100, 200 or 400 meter sprint?.

Im pretty sure that white caucasan women from your country was the winner at 200m at Worlds (last two times). Also, the last male winner is from Turkey/born in Azerbaijan, USSR ;)
 

snowflake

I enjoy what I like
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Nov 10, 2008
I don't think we (I am Dutch) are genetically predestined for speed skating, it is just a big part of our culture,

Exactly. I think who competes in what sports is mostly a cultural thing. Sometimes an inspiring teacher, friend or a club wanting children to try new sports can attract persons who doesn’t have any history of it. For example most cross country skiers are caucasians. Though I’m sure other ethnics could be as good if they choose the sport.

The lone white swan I forgot about and she even is from The Netherlands.

:rofl: i didn't even notice you were Dutch...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know. All stereotypes have their representatives. Also their exceptions.

Were Asian American skaters Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi more highly motivated and harder-working than Polish American skaters Tara Lipinski and Janet Lynn (Nowicki)?

Does Jason Brown respect his parents less than Nathan Chen does? (Or is Chen just a more prodigious leaper?)
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
Country
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It is just as much a stereotype to say that Asian Americans work “harder” than other Americans, are more dedicated, willing to sacrifice, ya di ya di ya di ya.

In fact many Asian Americans in the US feel that the stereotype of “model minority” is just as harmful to them as any other stereotype. (This is from what I read, I am not Asian American and could not say).

Correlation is not causation. Any stereotype, whether good or bad, is not helpful. Why is it so difficult to treat people, including skaters, as individuals?
 

Artemisa

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Genetic inclination to and overall aptitude of particular ethnic groups in certain sports can be statistically proven.

When is the last time you've seen a white caucasian win in 100, 200 or 400 meter sprint?
All of those USSR and GDR triumphs feil through because their athletes were 'doctored' and ran on 'chemics'.

Athletics is a cheep kind of sport, you only need a pair of trainers, and in some of the poorest countries, the young runners even train barefoot on dirt tracks. Some goes for boxing, many ball games and more that can be practised cheaply using only minimal facilities.

FS, gymnastics, swimming, etc. are expensive because of the required infrastructure and specialised trainers, so it mostly has kids from more affluent parents practise it. Esp. in the west where sports are mostly a privately owned commercial businesses.

Many team sports are practised at a decent level in schools, high schools and colleges, feeding talent to an overall program on national level if there are competent governing bodies.

But what if a NOC like Jamaica has unlimited funds and wants to put its stamp on worldwide figure skating?

Setting up their own Crystal Dome to study and apply the Tutberidze Effect to athletes from a whole different gene pool?

Traditional dance will suffice for choreography and physical fitness. Since classical ballet and its aesthetics of posture and extension and is considered traditionally western and white? What will the result be? Athletes of impressive physical prowess but no more than jumping jocks? The ISU rules shouldn't discriminate against any cultural image, dance and expression, but subconsciously still do in the minds of the majority of judges.

It would certainly be interesting and innovative, and not sedate at all, unlike the perceived image of figure skating as only being pretty petite and curvy young women drawing scrolls and serpentines on ice.

It's true that genetics helps .... but if you don't have the motivation, practice, education or money ... you will not sucede ...

For example: Rosa Mota ( she won olympic marathon) had asthma and sciatica as a child... probably if her parents or teachers give up on her she wouldn't have won !!

Motivation: in poor countries ( or even emigrants) the only way out of poverty is being an athlete and winning (usually athletism because don't cost money) ... you want to compare motivation of an athlete form a rich country who has other opportunities ...
Practice: That's the base of Eteri and most japonese skater.... if have an excuse stay home ... asian aren't better because of genetics they are better because of the pression of being better ... japon has the highest rate of suicide among students and a word for death because of excess of work ( Karoshi) ...
Education: if your county don't invest in some sports or don't have a culture to practice sports at school and a high level.. probably your country will not have many medals
Money: If you don't have money maybe a career in some modalities aren't an option... ( for example my country don't have a ringue of ice skating ... so who cares about genetics in this case ... )
 

Edwin

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I don't know. All stereotypes have their representatives. Also their exceptions.

Environment, culture, class (or rather station in society) do play their big roles.

In general, 'immigrants' or 'minorities' strive harder to present themselves as equals to the 'settled' ones, who are perhaps resting too much on their laurels of entitlement? Upwards mobilility can be a great driving force, as can be fear of being overtaken or displaced (though the latter often motivates in a negative way, i.e. leads to discrimination against the uprisers/newcomers).

You hardly can expect an Ethiopian to excel in downhill racing when he has never seen snow, so environment plays its obvious role.

Equestrian, sailing, etc. have always been consider upper class sports, because ordinary folks could not practice them, until the windsurf board came along. Olympic quality dressage and jumping horses still are very expensive.

IOC wants no more Eddie_the_Eagle's, but Jamaica bobsleigh teams are most welcome as in breaking up a stereotype.

Sports like BMX, wild water canoeing and many others can be set up with only small to moderate financial outlay, not being dependent on any environment, culture or class.

Don't know about figure skating being universally applicable everywhere for reasons I've tried to explain in my previous postings.

But there is always hope, variation is the spice of life, the more the merrier, etc.
 

flanker

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Feb 10, 2018
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Czech-Republic
When is the last time you've seen a white caucasian win in 100, 200 or 400 meter sprint?

Christophe Lemaitre. He is (or was) one of the few (about three) white men who can run 100 m under 10s regularly.

Yes, genetics plays role when it comes to specific shapes. In athletic sports like sprint, long jump, high jump some feature of a physique is dominant. E. g. Achilles tendon.

On the other hand, in sports like figure skating, that are more complex, you can't rely on some particular feature (unless we won't fall into debate about "small child bodies" :) ), but you have to develop many different abilities, so one small advance in something is not as big advance in complex.
 

JazzUp

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May 28, 2019
Happy and hard working children, still looking towards their future with sparkling eyes, but already aware of their position, their responsibilities, the trainers they are working with :)

Just wait for a while, and you'll be dissuaded from this silly notion by very knowledgeable people, and will realise that they're just being exploited.
 

Edwin

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Just wait for a while, and you'll be dissuaded from this silly notion by very knowledgeable people, and will realise that they're just being exploited.

No, I don't think so. These children still enjoy what they are doing very much without the notion they are being exploited to elevate the prestige of Russia. Which is what we adults know state financed sports is all about.

Let these children live their dreams in innocence but not ignorance, because they are aware of the time and money their parents spend on them.
And no doubt each of their trainers has made the children very clear they should not waste training time nor state money.

Citius, Altius, Fortius = #TeamTutberidzeForProgress
 
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