The Tutberidze Effect | Page 11 | Golden Skate

The Tutberidze Effect

flanker

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Feb 10, 2018
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Just wait for a while, and you'll be dissuaded from this silly notion by very knowledgeable people, and will realise that they're just being exploited.

Being exploited is not entirely negative, you didn't know that? :laugh:
 

icybear

Medalist
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Just wait for a while, and you'll be dissuaded from this silly notion by very knowledgeable people, and will realise that they're just being exploited.

Exploited? Is it the skater or the coach that gets to stand on the podium and wear that gold medal? I'm pretty sure that it is the skater that gets the bigger heap of advantage from these "exploitation" you call.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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Being exploited is not entirely negative, you didn't know that? :laugh:

:scratch2:

I have not seen anyone say that the passive "being exploited" (as opposed to the active voice used in terms such "exploiting a system") is a positive. Could you link to a post on this Board where someone says that?

Thanks:)
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Just wait for a while, and you'll be dissuaded from this silly notion by very knowledgeable people, and will realise that they're just being exploited.

What? Where did this come from?
Has Alina been exploited? Some make it while some don't make it. That's sports and that's life.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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What? Where did this come from?
Has Alina been exploited? Some make it while some don't make it. That's sports and that's life.

Exactly. No one has said that anyone is "exploited". It's a comment that came out of nowhere.:confused:

(at least on the Board, as far as I can tell. I don't really care what anyone says out in the World Wide Web. ;) And just general allusions to what someone thinks someone said or "Oh well this is what people here say" without actually quoting anyone. :shrug: If you disagree with someone, quote them and say why. If you can't point to a specific post, why say anything?)

Very confusing.
 

Scott512

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Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Exactly. No one has said that anyone is "exploited". It's a comment that came out of nowhere.:confused:

(at least on the Board, as far as I can tell. I don't really care what anyone says out in the World Wide Web. ;) And just general allusions to what someone thinks someone said or "Oh well this is what people here say" without actually quoting anyone. :shrug: If you disagree with someone, quote them and say why. If you can't point to a specific post, why say anything?)

Very confusing.
I'm not sure what to think. The exploitation comment caught me off base a little bit. Could there be shades of exploitation among the figure skating children? I don't know. That's up for each person to figure out. But they seem to love what they do. I guess if parents are pushing kids into sports or a certain activity for their pleasure and their excitement that could be a form of exploitation. No?
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I'm not sure what to think. The exploitation comment caught me off base a little bit. Could there be shades of exploitation among the figure skating children? I don't know. That's up for each person to figure out. But they seem to love what they do. I guess if parents are pushing kids into sports or a certain activity for their pleasure and their excitement that could be a form of exploitation. No?

There could be, of course, but just for me, I don't like to talk about "could be's". I might take a quote from a skater, or their parent, and say, "this troubles me", but without quotes or other info, I certainly wouldn't say someone is being "exploited".

And I haven't seen anyone else say it either, not that I've read every post on this Board:biggrin: That's why I ask for specifics, usually, because generalities aren't that interesting to me:)
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
There could be, of course, but just for me, I don't like to talk about "could be's". I might take a quote from a skater, or their parent, and say, "this troubles me", but without quotes or other info, I certainly wouldn't say someone is being "exploited".

And I haven't seen anyone else say it either, not that I've read every post on this Board:biggrin: That's why I ask for specifics, usually, because generalities aren't that interesting to me:)

Yes could bs are always confusing.

But the more I think about shades of exploitation the more I think about athlete's parents living through their children's efforts to become something in their sport. Is living vicariously through your child's athletic efforts a shade of exploitation? probably not but I would understand if somebody thought that would be the case. For instance my parents met at art school and my dad has been an artist for decades and that's how he made his living. I have some lesser art talent and I have kind of guided my stepdaughter into the art field first to see if she likes it and then to see if she will stick with it. I of course have had the thought cross my mind that she could make a career in the art industry the way my father has. Is that a form of exploitation on my part? I hope not. She may or may not have a career in art that is to be determined years down the road but all of us are excited that she has an interest in it and has talent as well to this point for design and sketching in particular.

Are the parents who bring their children into figure skating or hockey or gymnastics living vicariously through them in some way? Maybe so. but I don't necessarily think it's exploitation. But we're only human after all and anyone would do anything they can to get their child a head start in life. But that's not always good as we've learned from the college scandals in America where wealthy celebrities are buying their kids way into prestigious universities when they don't deserve to be there. Now that is exploiting your child. SMH.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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Jan 5, 2019
What quantifies the Tutberidze Effect?

Is it a vector? with impulse and direction?

Is it a field? with flux and field strength? how is it distributed?

Is it a force? attracting, repulsing, what does it act upon?

Continuous research is needed to find out, and this is where I leave you.

I will be following the experiment with all my curiosity and interest.

May The Force, The Field and The Vector, always be with all skaters in this and future seasons, power them, guide them and keep them save :)
 

LenaRadiFan

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Yes could bs are always confusing.

But the more I think about shades of exploitation the more I think about athlete's parents living through their children's efforts to become something in their sport. Is living vicariously through your child's athletic efforts a shade of exploitation? probably not but I would understand if somebody thought that would be the case. For instance my parents met at art school and my dad has been an artist for decades and that's how he made his living. I have some lesser art talent and I have kind of guided my stepdaughter into the art field first to see if she likes it and then to see if she will stick with it. I of course have had the thought cross my mind that she could make a career in the art industry the way my father has. Is that a form of exploitation on my part? I hope not. She may or may not have a career in art that is to be determined years down the road but all of us are excited that she has an interest in it and has talent as well to this point for design and sketching in particular.

Are the parents who bring their children into figure skating or hockey or gymnastics living vicariously through them in some way? Maybe so. but I don't necessarily think it's exploitation. But we're only human after all and anyone would do anything they can to get their child a head start in life. But that's not always good as we've learned from the college scandals in America where wealthy celebrities are buying their kids way into prestigious universities when they don't deserve to be there. Now that is exploiting your child. SMH.
I think maybe living vicariously through them starts, if the parents do not let their children quit or pursue something else( "I invested in this so you will not quit" etc.) Just putting them in class, to give them some sport and movement(which all children need) and then supporting them if they really enjoy it, to me that is not living through your children
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What quantifies the Tutberidze Effect?

Is it a vector? with impulse and direction?

Is it a field? with flux and field strength? how is it distributed?

Is it a force? attracting, repulsing, what does it act upon?

Continuous research is needed to find out, and this is where I leave you.

Personally, I think it is all of these rolled into one. I think that future figure skating scholars will mark its two historical eras as BE and AE, for before and after The Effect. :yes:
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I think maybe living vicariously through them starts, if the parents do not let their children quit or pursue something else( "I invested in this so you will not quit" etc.) Just putting them in class, to give them some sport and movement(which all children need) and then supporting them if they really enjoy it, to me that is not living through your children

Well said LRF. It makes sense and I agree. We won't push my stepdaughter to art school but if she were to go there it wouldn't exactly upset me. ;) We will let her make her decision and try to guide her the best weekend but won't force anything on her and that makes me think of all the kids in sports like figure skating and it's so tough even at a young age and what they go through and if the ones that don't really like it or aren't that good at it but stay in it because their parents want them to. That could lead to emotional struggles later on. It's a very fine line to walk when trying to advise or lead young people into an activity or sport.

Like everyone else here I have so much admiration for these figure skaters the ones that make it and even the ones that don't make it. It's a beautiful and brutal sport at the same time.

As for Eteri I hope she is enjoying the massive success in her career because she deserves it. She really did come from humble beginnings when she moved back to Russia from the United States and now she is building an empire never seen by one coach in one discipline in the history of figure skating. It's almost unfathomable. I hope it's some point she has major success with another discipline (men) as well as the ladies. That may be Eteris ultimate challenge as a coach.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Wishing her well.

Still, it never hurts to be cautious in passing out the GOAT award. Carlo Fassi coached four skaters to the Olympic gold metal (Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, John Curry and Robin Cousins, plus Scott Hamilton briefly).

Tatiana Tarasova coached/choreographed for Bestemianova & Bukin, Grishuk & Platov, Krilova & Ponomarenko, Rodnina & Zaitsev, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Ilia Kulik, and Alexei Yagudin. Plus she was influential in the careers of many other champions.
 
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Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Wishing her well.

Still, it never hurts to be cautious in passing out the GOAT award. Carlo Fossi coached four skaters to the Olympic gold metal (Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, John Curry and Robin Cousins, plus Scott Hamilton briefly).

Tatiana Tarasova coached/choreographed for Bestemianova & Bukin, Grishuk & Platov, Krilova & Ponomarenko, Rodnina & Zaitsev, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Ilia Kulik, and Alexei Yagudin. Plus she was influential in the careers of many other champions.

They are GOAT coaches and thats what EG is shooting for! In my opinion there is much more competition now than when those coaches were great which makes what Eteri is doing in one discipline in seniors and juniors even more remarkable. But I will try to be more caustious as time goes by. But its not easy because we are on the worldwide web and we let our emoitons flow in our posts.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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Jan 5, 2019
Perhaps, there is always this chance of locking yourself into this Ivory Tower of Infallibility, but I don't think this will happen to #TeamTutberidzeForProgress, since they are a team and only together they are greater than the sum of their parts.

But if lets say China makes a multi million dollar a year offer and an 8 figure bonus when there will be a CHN gold in singles? No, still I'd think they would stay loyal to Russia and the children they coach, being Queen of your own Crystal Dome is better than being just a well paid pawn in some other federations plan.
 

Ykai

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Chinese officials have asked Eteri to train their girl. Eteri named a price the Chinese will certainly not be willing to pay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zng1GIaC24&t=4404

What did the Chinese Fed ask exactly? The auto-translation is just terrible. I understand that Eteri simply gave a ridiculous hour rate to be polite, but then they talked about Plushenko, did Chinese Fed ask Plushenko as well? I am lost.

On the other hand, Brian and Tracy fly all the way to Beijing to train Chinese skaters. I guess Eteri can do the same, but she is just not interested?
 

Edwin

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What did the Chinese Fed ask exactly? The auto-translation is just terrible. I understand that Eteri simply gave a ridiculous hour rate to be polite, but then they talked about Plushenko, did Chinese Fed ask Plushenko as well? I am lost.

On the other hand, Brian and Tracy fly all the way to Beijing to train Chinese skaters. I guess Eteri can do the same, but she is just not interested?

She is fiercely loyal to Russia, committed to her own skaters, both in good and bad times. Plus she is on FFKKR/FFKM,Sambo-70's payroll, sort of like a public servant to the Ministry of Sports. She'll have to get herself fired/leave from public service first to start working for another federation. Being in charge over the strongest FS school in the world (at least in ladies singles with hopes to expand into mens singles) is not something I would forsake just for more money if I had no desire for riches in the first place. Job satisfaction, the feeling of realisation are not to be mixed up with financial rewards.

Plyushchenko might perhaps have to liquidate or hand over his own business/enterprise the Angels before becoming a full time coach/advisor for the Chinese.

Orser and Wilson are freelance professionals, used to working at commissions and tasks by the hour, as the commercial choreographers are. They might take up a position of advisor, general manager, setting up and overseeing the work of the Chinese trainers and coaches, but not like 'getting their hands dirty' with actual training/coaching full time I'd think.

Wether another federation can poach Dudakov, Gleikhengauz or Rozanov? My guess is no, they love their skaters, they enjoy raising them up and coach them to this high level, enjoy working as a team together, sharing the satisfaction, enjoying the fruits of their labour together. We'll see after 2022 Olympics what their individual ambitions are for one can be reasonably certain, after the Games have left China, there will be far less money and prestige left since all attention will switch to the 2026 Games.

There will be huge language and cultural barriers to overcome if any person not Chinese is asked to set up a long term program to study and apply the Tutberidze Effect. If you don't think, talk and feel like a Chinese, it probably won't work.

It seems the Chinese are doing quite well on their own, the impetus, the momentum is certainly there.
 

Watch

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
She is fiercely loyal to Russia, committed to her own skaters, both in good and bad times. Plus she is on FFKKR/FFKM,Sambo-70's payroll, sort of like a public servant to the Ministry of Sports. She'll have to get herself fired/leave from public service first to start working for another federation.
Plyushchenko might perhaps have to liquidate or hand over his own business/enterprise the Angels before becoming a full time coach/advisor for the Chinese.

Orser and Wilson are freelance professionals, used to working at tasks by the hour, as the commercial choreographers are. They might take up a position of advisor, general manager, setting up and overseeing things, but not like 'getting their hands dirty' with actual training/coaching full time.

Wether another federation can poach Dudakov, Gleikhengauz or Rozanov? My guess is no, they love their skaters, they enjoy raising them up and coach them to this high level, enjoy working as a team together, sharing the satisfaction, the results of their labour together. We'll see after 2022 Olympics what their individual ambitions are.

There will be huge language and cultural barriers to overcome if any person not Chinese is asked to set up a long term program to study and apply the Tutberidze Effect. If you don't think, talk and feel like a Chinese, it probably won't work.

It seems the Chinese are doing quite well on their own, the impetus, the momentum is certainly there.

Opinions on such things can change and certainly have over the years. In this very same press conference from before the Olympics she said she wasn't interested in training any foreign skaters at all and mentions Elizabeth Tursynbaeva by name, as someone she isn't interested in training full time. Needless to say, that has changed. Eteri was also willing to accept Shoma this year, though it didn't work out. And she's actually had Chinese skaters come to her summer camp for the last two seasons. Of course Eteri wouldn't ditch her own skaters in favour of the Chinese fed, but she's definitely not as categorically opposed to training non-Russian skaters as she used to be.
 
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