Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 276

Thread: The Tutberidze Effect

  1. #61
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,970
    Country: Czech Republic

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Actually, i needed to read all of them And i was using Piaget who was saying that last stadium in cognitive development is getting formed from 11 till 16 age. However, there are some researches which are claiming that 1/2 college students fail at some formal operation tasks and 1/3 of adults never develop it completely. But the point is - when you pass 16 years, age is not a thing which makes someone better formatted, nor intelectually nor emotionally. All biological phases of human development are finished till 16 years of age. The only difference is in quantity of informations more mature people can posses. But quality is the same. If 16yo is in contact with important information he/she has ability to process it in a 'right' way. To claim that 16yo is not formatted enough to live/think/emote 'as adults' in an outside world (just because is 16yo and not 26yo) is simply not right from a scientific point of view.
    This is supported by some of my friends who are teaching on high school /university. They all agree that their pupils can be "formatted" to some 15/16, what they don't get till that time (like the will to gain information, the love for study and for subjects etc., ability to process information etc.) they won't gain any later. That's why one of them, despite being highly valued university teacher, decided to teach on high school, because "that's the last time we can really do something with them".

  2. #62
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,970
    Country: Czech Republic

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by dante View Post
    Personally, I experience mental and emotional "reformatting" once a few years, the latest one was at the age of 30, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the last one.
    Depends on what is the core of this "reformatting" and how deep it is. As for me, there were some hard experinece that influenced me, but I can't say it changed/reformatted me.

  3. #63
    Alyona Kostornaya - skating off into the unknown.. Edwin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,614
    Country: Netherlands

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by dante View Post
    I'm rather concerned not about the conditions in Eteri team, but about a possible cargo cult if some younger coaches decide to repeat her success by blindly copying her perceived methods (especially foreigners who mostly learn about Eteri from her critics).
    Perhaps, but they'll quickly find out that the Tutberidze Effect is only able to manifest itself in a certain cultural predisposition. Few federations have the resources or the patience to set this laboratory up the proper way and sustain it during the experimental stages and trial runs when nothing is certain of the outcome. Before it starts to yield results, it might take 10 years, to bring 4-6 year old children to the level of any of the Awesome A's and go beyond there. That requires foresight and planning, allotting of long term supplies and a solid business plan with full cooperation from all the subsidiary parts.

    A brutal government like DPRK might think it can steal/copy/reverse engineer the experiment, and at great cost, even in human life, realise it, but we rather don't want that to happen, do we?

  4. #64
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    36,790
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by beachmouse View Post
    China however is the reason why there's a minimum age to compete internationally in diving. They were sending 12 year olds to win World Championships in diving and even the generally ostrich-like FINA stepped back and said 'if they're winning world title in platform at that age, then they're starting athletes on a 10 meter tower...
    This is a very interesting observation to me. Are you saying that, with the proper training, a 12-year-old is naturally better at the sport of diving than an 18-year-old? Are fans of diving OK with this fact about their sport?

  5. #65
    a dark lord dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    863
    Country: Russia

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by flanker View Post
    Depends on what is the core of this "reformatting" and how deep it is. As for me, there were some hard experinece that influenced me, but I can't say it changed/reformatted me.
    I mean changes in life priorities, changes in emotional responses to various situations, and even changes in how I analyze complex information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin View Post
    A brutal government like DPRK might think it can steal/copy/reverse engineer the experiment, and at great cost, even in human life, realise it, but we rather don't want that to happen, do we?
    Something tells me, a DPRK team has more chance to genuinely reproduce Eteri's methods (though not her success) than most other countries. Maybe because I learned about this country not only from its critics.

  6. #66
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    36,790
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov View Post
    Firstly, I’m very worried about your emphasis on the word spectator
    I look at it this way. Sports falls into the economic category “recreation and entertainment.” (What else would it be? It is not “Manufacturing and Mining.” It is not “Banking and Financial Services.”)

    If you participate in a sport (or encourage your child to do so) in order to realize the benefits of exercise, to learn life skills such as goal-setting, and personal achievement, to enjoy the camaraderie of being on a team, etc. – that’s recreation.

    If you perform for a paying audience (like a professional football player with a multi-million dollar contract) – that’s entertainment. (Why people are entertained by watching someone else play a game is another question.)

    Big-time sport tries to serve both roles. We have little league baseball (which only the parents of the players care about) and then we have the World Series where the most skilled performers (not to mention team owners, promoters, etc.) make their fortunes. It just seems weird to me to have a sport where the most-skilled players and the children are one and the same.
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-14-2019 at 03:24 PM.

  7. #67
    Alyona Kostornaya - skating off into the unknown.. Edwin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,614
    Country: Netherlands

    2 Not allowed!
    But then what is the greater goal of state funded sports and experiments in sports such as continued studies of the Tutberidze Effect?

    In Russia's Ministry of Sports, only the medals matter, wether the athlete gets anything out of his efforts other than a piece of metal hanging from a peg on his medal rack is entirely up to most athletes themselves and their parents. Only the rarest few can live off their sport when not actively participating in it anymore, and living the life of a poster boy or girl isn't for everybody.

    It does me good to read and hear the parents of those young skaters submitted for practical application of the Tutberidze Effect still help their children balance between having a normal child's/family life, sport and school. Good trainers know this and facilitate this as best as possible, for what if the experiment fails?

    On the other hand, we have the beauty pagant/'modeling'/dancing/skating/gymnastics mums, the football/hockey/motorsports dads who invest $$$ in their children at private clubs which run their business for profit, often trying to realise their own ambitions by proxy.
    Knowing your parents spend 2-5-10K a month on 'your sport' puts a whole different pressure on the child, including almost primal fear of disappointing their parents who should be unconditionally loyal to their children in the first place. Children have put themselves up with prolonged abuse of all kinds from their trainers because of this fear of losing parental approval.

    The Crystal Cave, a.k.a. Khrustalniy might offer seemingly tough living conditions to its inhabitants, but is actually a carefully balanced ecological sound ecosystem that nurtures its applicants to grow, bloom and flourish.

  8. #68
    On the Ice Alex65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    333
    Country: Russia

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by dante View Post
    ...


    Personally, I experience mental and emotional "reformatting" once a few years, the latest one was at the age of 30, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the last one. ...
    drinking bout?

  9. #69
    Rinkside asingingwife's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    68
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    I used to be of the opinion of the farther you can push it technically why not. But as I've gotten older and heard about how Tara Lipinski basically destroyed her hips or listened to the TSL interview with Tim Gobel and how his body was destroyed by doing so many repetitions of quads... my opinion changed. Unfortunately I don't think things will slow down for years to come until people finally see the results on the body :/

  10. #70
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,496
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by andromache View Post
    This is totally inaccurate.

    I'm not sure about developmental psychology, but studies of the actual human brain make it pretty clear that humans are not mentally matured until around age 25.

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=141164708
    Those researches are not in opposition with what i'm saying. Most of the brain related studies are only saying that brain is keep developing later throuh life basically. However, their definition of what makes human adults is not asked in a 'developmental' way - nor those resercheas are asking correct question, nor they are giving answer on that question. (Inhibition of impulsses and better organization of your behaviour to reach a goal is not a deffinition of adultism. First - there are children who are better in organization in their 16 years of age comparing to the stadium when they reach 26, because those things are dependable of person's social enviroment and inner organization at one point of time. Some have more problems with 'current situation' later in their lives. So later development is just an answer on a different social situations. But human organizam is totally capable of learning everything which is learning later in life at 16 and that's the point. And second - you can't say that control of the impulsses is something 'brain related'. Nor it is a process which has a developmental phases. You can't stop your impulsses to exist from the day you are born to the end of your life. It is highly individual how you deal with it. Having problems with that - not being socialized or not behaving by social standards doesn't mean that your system is not developed yet. More often is just an improper reaction of your already developed system). Like i mentioned, you can say that human development is keep continuing throw the whole life. But those later changes are not something which is making qualitative new formation in human development, it is just a continuation of the same process. The last 'jump' in the developmental stages is (should be) already made till 16yo, and there is no qualitative changes after that. Human society of course can change (as it is changing) their own definitions of what make human adults. But biologicaly (and psychologicaly) that is already defined. At 16 you have all the ingridients to be an adult. Do you need to be or behave as an adult at that age is another question.

  11. #71
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    895
    Country: Russia

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by asingingwife View Post
    I used to be of the opinion of the farther you can push it technically why not. But as I've gotten older and heard about how Tara Lipinski basically destroyed her hips or listened to the TSL interview with Tim Gobel and how his body was destroyed by doing so many repetitions of quads... my opinion changed. Unfortunately I don't think things will slow down for years to come until people finally see the results on the body :/
    Do you think it need to ban triple in girls and quads in guys?

  12. #72
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    719

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov View Post
    Do you think it need to ban triple in girls and quads in guys?
    How many human bodies were destroyed by football(s), boxing, Alpine skiing, alpinism etc?

  13. #73
    a dark lord dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    863
    Country: Russia

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by asingingwife View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think things will slow down for years to come until people finally see the results on the body :/
    The men who jumped 1-2 quads per program in '90s now walk with screws in their back. The technique and the learning process have greatly improved since then, and now men jump 3-5 quads with much less health issues. Until skaters start attempting the 4A and quints, I think we should expect a gradual decrease in injuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex65 View Post
    drinking bout?
    Haven't drunk since the age of 21... though I sometimes wish I had.

  14. #74
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    202
    Country: Romania

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    How many human bodies were destroyed by football(s), boxing, Alpine skiing, alpinism etc?
    One russian boxer died last month in US after a fight. A couple of days later an argentinian boxer died because of violent hits.

    Football is also a dangerous sport, athletes are playing most of the time injured, lots of careers were cut short because of injuries.

  15. #75
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    80

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is a very interesting observation to me. Are you saying that, with the proper training, a 12-year-old is naturally better at the sport of diving than an 18-year-old? Are fans of diving OK with this fact about their sport?
    It varies. Fu Mingxa was world champion at age 12, and Olympic champion at 13, 18 and 22. Some peak as young teens while others are able to still be world class in their mid-late 20s. If you don't push platform too young, diving is often gentler on the body than many other high flexibility/strength sports, and a very high percentage of elite divers started out as gymnasts who were having too many injuries in their first sport. It's also a sport where an extra 3-5 kilos doesn't matter quite so much as with gymnastics or skating.

    I think there's a sense that the current age limits are right for that sport in terms of balancing athlete freedom and athlete protection.

  16. #76
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    462

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Those researches are not in opposition with what i'm saying. Most of the brain related studies are only saying that brain is keep developing later throuh life basically. However, their definition of what makes human adults is not asked in a 'developmental' way - nor those resercheas are asking correct question, nor they are giving answer on that question. (Inhibition of impulsses and better organization of your behaviour to reach a goal is not a deffinition of adultism. First - there are children who are better in organization in their 16 years of age comparing to the stadium when they reach 26, because those things are dependable of person's social enviroment and inner organization at one point of time. Some have more problems with 'current situation' later in their lives. So later development is just an answer on a different social situations. But human organizam is totally capable of learning everything which is learning later in life at 16 and that's the point. And second - you can't say that control of the impulsses is something 'brain related'. Nor it is a process which has a developmental phases. You can't stop your impulsses to exist from the day you are born to the end of your life. It is highly individual how you deal with it. Having problems with that - not being socialized or not behaving by social standards doesn't mean that your system is not developed yet. More often is just an improper reaction of your already developed system). Like i mentioned, you can say that human development is keep continuing throw the whole life. But those later changes are not something which is making qualitative new formation in human development, it is just a continuation of the same process. The last 'jump' in the developmental stages is (should be) already made till 16yo, and there is no qualitative changes after that. Human society of course can change (as it is changing) their own definitions of what make human adults. But biologicaly (and psychologicaly) that is already defined. At 16 you have all the ingridients to be an adult. Do you need to be or behave as an adult at that age is another question.
    Actually, the ability to organize information and "control impulses" are essentially the key components of executive functioning. Control of impulses is absolutely brain related. This is why you see problems with impulse control develop after brain injury. Teens and young adults - who do not have fully developed brains - are more likely to engage in risk taking behaviors or recklessness (e.g. driving fast, drug use, etc) and neuroscience has linked this to underdeveloped frontal cortex and difficulties with executive functioning.

  17. #77
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,496
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    0 Not allowed!
    Probably (if you observe control of impulses as an executive cognitive process similar with the other cognitive processes, but by definition impulses are much more than that). But then mature adults who do not have 'fully developed brains' are more likely to engage in risk tasking behaviors also. So, what is your point? How that fact is making a difference between 16 and 26yo?

  18. #78
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    462

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Probably (if you observe control of impulses as an executive cognitive process, which by definition impulses are not). But then mature adults who do not have 'fully developed brains' are more likely to engage in risk tasking behaviors also. So, what is your point? How that fact is making a difference between 16 and 26yo?
    My point is that between ages 16 and 26 a person will have different cognitive abilities that impact decision making. Yes, some adults who have a damaged or less developed prefrontal cortex will be more likely to engage in risk taking behavior than younger individuals. Of course there are going to be some 16 year olds with better cognitive abilities than some 26 year olds. People have a range of cognitive skills just as people have a range of physical abilities. But the point is that these cognitive skills are still developing in teens and they haven't reached their full adult potential. Its like saying "some 10 year olds are taller than adults, so we should just assume 10 is the age when people reach their adult height."

    Also "organization" from a neuroscience concept isn't like keeping your room clean or organized. It's a term that refers to how individuals process information (e.g. sensory input, memories, emotions) and use it to make decisions. And when we talk about impulse control, from a neuroscience perspective, this is really more about the process of cognitive inhibition. It's not necessarily "impulses" such as eating candy or buying something on whim. Impulse refers to a much wider concept of neurological impulses than how the word is used colloquially. Like how quickly can you apply the brake pedal when a deer jumps in front of your car. That ability to react to this information, take your foot off the gas, and apply the brake pedal is a form of "impulse control" related to cognitive inhibition.

    If you want to learn about the importance of the prefrontal cortex, I'd suggest reading about Phineas Gage. This is the classic case they teach about in psychology/neuroscience that demonstrates how important the prefrontal cortex is in determining our behavior and decisions.

  19. #79
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,496
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    0 Not allowed!
    Yeah, i was obliged to read something about it, but i never felt in love with neurosciences as an answer to the psychological questions to be fair I learned the myelin sheath keep developing till 30yo for example. But does that mean that people before 30 are not enough cognitively developed, and people after 30 are? Of course that 26yo person is probably more mature that 16yo. But that doesn't imply how some 16yo can't be a 'mature' person too, knowning that it already has all important ingridiens to be.

  20. #80
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    895
    Country: Russia

    1 Not allowed!
    Why all this scientific talk? A lady at the age of 15 may well perform beautiful programs - this is an observable fact. Moreover, she has trainers, a choreographer who will always help her with a lack of experience, will remove rudimentary “children's” movements, etc. Kostornaya’s movements are meaningful, filled with emotions. Her attitude, her emotions fully resonate with the programs.

    So, what exactly do you not like - that she has no boobs? Well, I’ll tell you a secret - the vast majority of top lady skaters on WC are as flat as hell, at least in my eyes. So, for me it's not problem. If I am interested in boobs (a very important thing, I do not argue ) - I will watch other videos

Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •