The Tutberidze Effect | Page 7 | Golden Skate

The Tutberidze Effect

yume

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Record Breaker
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Mar 11, 2016
This is body shaming. This is not good.

This is not body shaming. This is me saying that people say (from many comments i've read) that she doesn't matter as an adult skater because her body is tiny like a child's body. So Eteri isn't successful with adult skaters.
This is not new.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Speaking of Team Tutberidze effect. ... Even some Russian coaches were more than happy to say that Eteri is a children's coach.

That (whether future events bear it out or not) is my understanding of what is meant by "the Tutberidze Effect" as in the title of this thread. Will the current trend in figure skating expose the sport as an activity that only children can excel at? If so, is the international figure skating establishment OK with that, or will it do something about it?

For instance, if it turns out that any well-trained 13-year-old can learn to do quads, but older ladies can't, the ISU could change the scoring rules to put less emphasis on rotational jumps. Would this be a good idea, or should we just let the chips fall where they may?
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
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Czech-Republic
Methods. Control of weight is important in sport but seems like everything turn around weight in Russia. For many sports. I've watched the documentary about rythmic gymnastics in Russia "Winner takes it all". Irina Viner said to Alina Kabaeva that she had to lose 3kg in three days. So the girl just drunk water during three days. And she ditched a girl because she was eating "too much" and couldn't lose 3kg. It doesn't seem really healthy and the level of training is hard for athletes. But i don't know how it works in NA or Asia. North america's "methods" seems healthier but it's not like there is never skaters with eating disorders or mental illness (eg: Rippon, Gold, Daleman). Or coaches who never have injured skaters (iirc in olympic season, Tursynbaeva, Cha, Daleman, Hanyu got injuries. And they had to train and compete with them).
So i would like less drastic methods but i'm not either sure that any skater would be healthier outside Russia or Tutberidze's camp.
Sport, especially figure skating, is hard.


Speaking of Team Tutberidze effect. I don't know if it's a goal for that team but i think that making Zagitova stay relevant for the next three years would be a biggest victory for team Tutberidze than making Trusova and Scherbakova win everything with quads for the next 2 years. After Zagitova's bad free skated at nats and euros, people whom even some Russian coaches were more than happy to say that Eteri is a children's coach. That past 16 yo everything disappear and Zagitova was finished. The gold at worlds was a good slap in the face but imo a successful 19yo Zagitova would be more convincing. If she doesn't get a quad, maybe Eteri will need to politically protect her (If she really wants it. But seems like she doesn't want to protect anyone). As not everyone understand that when a skater doesn't get spots or titles it's not necessary because she became worse, but because the next generation is better.
I don't even talk about Tursynbaeva who is 19yo because people always point her child's body.
But i guess that winning as much as possible is more important than having successful past 18yo.

The change that i would like to happens in that camp is more importance given to basics. At this state it seems like the better option would be a deal between Panova (or Kostornaya's former coach) and Eteri. Panova sends her most promising 12yo/13yo with nice SS and jumps to Eteri. And Eteri gives them that competitive mind and programs that can score super high.
And of course another choreographer. Because obviously Daniil has too much work and those skaters needs fresh ideas.


Seems healthier? Does data prove it?*

About Tursynbayeva, I don't remember people would talk about her "child's body" when she was with Orser, now it is like a stigma. "She has child's body, that's why she is worlds silver medalist." It always amazes me how "simple" it is. :devil:

*
It could be also interresting to compare russian ladies with the rest of the Europe. I think that we can say that top european ladies after Russians are now Carolina Kostner, Loena Hendrickx, Viveca Lindfors and Nicole Schott. and all four of them sufferend from injuries the last season, missed competitions:
Carolina whole season, though in her age - it's not "age shaming", it is understandable that health problems will rise in top sport with age.
Loena - missed Euros due to back injury, her performance in worlds was affected by it.
Viveca - missed worlds due to training injury after winning bronze in euros.
Nicole - knee injury affected her performance both in euros and worlds this season.

So, when speaking about health issues, you should consider that in top sport there is always risk and you even don't need to train quads and be "poor russian girl treated like a tool by her evil coaches." :biggrin:
 

flanker

Record Breaker
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Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Just commenting here to say that I was visiting the first pages of Marin Honda‘s fan page today. And people there were very concerned for her when she was training quads and 3A at age 11, 12. Same thing happens for Alysa Liu, Stephen Gogolev... People being worried for these kids is not a unique thing and it‘s certainly not only related to Eteri girls. So, please don‘t make it seem that way. That‘s all I‘m gonna say about this.

You should notice that my post quoted one line from particular post, with completely obvious double standard. I'm not making anything some way, I am knee deep in this no matter how much you deny it. I've read som 20 pages of Mirain's thread and - that's it? You really claim this is equal? Some four, literally four careful posts are equal to tons of "everything" about Eteri'sd team? We have obviously different view of what can be called "the same".
 

Grin

Medalist
Joined
May 17, 2017
That (whether future events bear it out or not) is my understanding of what is meant by "the Tutberidze Effect" as in the title of this thread. Will the current trend in figure skating expose the sport as an activity that only children can excel at? If so, is the international figure skating establishment OK with that, or will it do something about it?

For instance, if it turns out that any well-trained 13-year-old can learn to do quads, but older ladies can't, the ISU could change the scoring rules to put less emphasis on rotational jumps. Would this be a good idea, or should we just let the chips fall where they may?

Changing PCS factor for ladies from 0.8 to 1.0 can help, I suppose.
I also think that ladies should be allowed to jump quads in short program. I don't have a clue why all women rights activists are silent about this discriminative rule.
 

yume

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Record Breaker
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Mar 11, 2016
Seems healthier? Does data prove it?*

About Tursynbayeva, I don't remember people would talk about her "child's body" when she was with Orser, now it is like a stigma. "She has child's body, that's why she is worlds silver medalist." It always amazes me how "simple" it is. :devil:

*
It could be also interresting to compare russian ladies with the rest of the Europe. I think that we can say that top european ladies after Russians are now Carolina Kostner, Loena Hendrickx, Viveca Lindfors and Nicole Schott. and all four of them sufferend from injuries the last season, missed competitions:
Carolina whole season, though in her age - it's not "age shaming", it is understandable that health problems will rise in top sport with age.
Loena - missed Euros due to back injury, her performance in worlds was affected by it.
Viveca - missed worlds due to training injury after winning bronze in euros.
Nicole - knee injury affected her performance both in euros and worlds this season.

So, when speaking about health issues, you should consider that in top sport there is always risk and you even don't need to train quads and be "poor russian girl treated like a tool by her evil coaches." :biggrin:
No data. Exactly why i said "seems healthier" and no "is healthier". Because i never ear that coaches use tough methods to make skaters lose weight for example.
But you will remark that i also said that there is cases of eating disorders, mental illness, injuries in North America training camps. So it's not like i said Russia is hell and the rest of world is heaven. And i said that sport, especially figure skating is hard. So exactly the same thing that you're saying in the last paragrapgh.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
flanker and yume I think you are saying the same thing with a little different starting point.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Would this be a good idea, or should we just let the chips fall where they may?

For me, it's not a bad idea as far does not come with artificial suppression of athleticism. Score the same let's say a huge triple jump with a tiny or mediocre quad. Both can have the same or similar amount of difficulty. For example, if a skater A can do a quad, but cannot do a triple with 65 cm height and a skater B can do a 65 cm triple, but cannot do a quad, we can come to a mutual agreement that both are extreme human capabilities and should be scored similarly. I mean here the base value not GOEs.

Just increasing PCS might lead to the opposite direction.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
No data. Exactly why i said "seems healthier" and no "is healthier". Because i never ear that coaches use tough methods to make skaters lose weight for example.
But you will remark that i also said that there is cases of eating disorders, mental illness, injuries in North America training camps. So it's not like i said Russia is hell and the rest of world is heaven. And i said that sport, especially figure skating is hard. So exactly the same thing that you're saying in the last paragrapgh.

I know what you've written. Unfortunately many people work with the prequisite "western way is healthier" based just on what it "seems" to look like for them. I didn't want do disprove what you were saying, maybe I was just "clumsy" in what I was saying.
 

yume

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Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
That (whether future events bear it out or not) is my understanding of what is meant by "the Tutberidze Effect" as in the title of this thread. Will the current trend in figure skating expose the sport as an activity that only children can excel at? If so, is the international figure skating establishment OK with that, or will it do something about it?

For instance, if it turns out that any well-trained 13-year-old can learn to do quads, but older ladies can't, the ISU could change the scoring rules to put less emphasis on rotational jumps. Would this be a good idea, or should we just let the chips fall where they may?
I guess it depends that if we see 15yo/16yo (the age at what most top skaters turn senior) like children. Will we see Kostornaya like a child when she will compete in senior at 16yo this season? Because i think it is only a problem in seniors. 13yo will always compete in juniors. If it's an issue that a top 13yo who compete in juniors score higher than a top 18 yo who compete in seniors, well ISU can reduce the number of elements to make juniors score lower.

If 15yo/16yo are children, well even 14 years back 15yo Mao was beating left and right the olympic medalists. Age rule worked if viewers thought that 15yo was to young to be the best in the world. It prevented her to go to olympics while i think it was the only realistic shot at the gold in her career.
I'm not necessarily for raising the age cap. It's unfair in some ways.

But some rules change can be good if ISU wants to give more chances to only triples skaters to win. But an appropriate use of rules and honest judging can already make the job. That's why Kaori Sakamoto unexepectedly won japanese nats, that's why Kostornaya won JGP and could have won Rusnats (or be very close) without the mistake in short program stsq. Despite having much less difficulty (not even a 3-3lo). Because they are skaters close to full package and judges rewarded it. If it was like that all time there will be less discussions about age + quads.
Raising PCS would lead to more aberrations like Kostner's PCS in the LP at 2018 euros imo.
Maybe a rule like only one quad in LP would help.
 

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
.....

Speaking of Team Tutberidze effect. I don't know if it's a goal for that team but i think that making Zagitova stay relevant for the next three years would be a biggest victory for team Tutberidze than making Trusova and Scherbakova win everything with quads for the next 2 years. .....


I want to argue with that. It will certainly be wonderful if Alina can successfully participate in the struggle for victory in the coming years for as long as she herself wants. However, I think the most important goal of the Khrustalny team should be just the development and preservation of the technical superiority of Shcherbakova, Trusova (and Kostornaya if she follows them) in the next few years. These young girls with their quads have risen to the highest level of technical excellence, ahead of the previous generation of girls, and I do not see the next generation being able to far surpass Trusova or Shcherbakova. Now a very interesting and crucial moment for them is whether the girls who received quads at a young age can save and even develop their achievements? No one knows the answer to this question, because they were the first to approach this barrier. Ahead they have the road literally along the blade of a knife, and the whole world will watch how they do it. The next generation of juniors will be easier, based on the experience gained. If Sasha and Anna can maintain the achieved level, then the question of their relevance in adulthood simply will not arise and they will be ready to meet the young rivals on equal terms. I really hope to see this in 2-3 years.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
I want to argue with that. It will certainly be wonderful if Alina can successfully participate in the struggle for victory in the coming years for as long as she herself wants. However, I think the most important goal of the Khrustalny team should be just the development and preservation of the technical superiority of Shcherbakova, Trusova (and Kostornaya if she follows them) in the next few years. These young girls with their quads have risen to the highest level of technical excellence, ahead of the previous generation of girls, and I do not see the next generation being able to far surpass Trusova or Shcherbakova. Now a very interesting and crucial moment for them is whether the girls who received quads at a young age can save and even develop their achievements? No one knows the answer to this question, because they were the first to approach this barrier. Ahead they have the road literally along the blade of a knife, and the whole world will watch how they do it. The next generation of juniors will be easier, based on the experience gained. If Sasha and Anna can maintain the achieved level, then the question of their relevance in adulthood simply will not arise and they will be ready to meet the young rivals on equal terms. I really hope to see this in 2-3 years.

I was optimistic, thinking that they will have their quads for at least the next 2 years. But yes it would be a big achievement.
 

starbella

Rinkside
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Jul 22, 2018
pls correct me if im wrong but technically didnt eteri train medvedeva until shes like 19 wich means shes kinda considered as an adult. But ik tat ppl dont rly like talking about this topic again so sorry fr bringin it up
 

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
I want to argue with that. It will certainly be wonderful if Alina can successfully participate in the struggle for victory in the coming years for as long as she herself wants. However, I think the most important goal of the Khrustalny team should be just the development and preservation of the technical superiority of Shcherbakova, Trusova (and Kostornaya if she follows them) in the next few years. These young girls with their quads have risen to the highest level of technical excellence, ahead of the previous generation of girls, and I do not see the next generation being able to far surpass Trusova or Shcherbakova. Now a very interesting and crucial moment for them is whether the girls who received quads at a young age can save and even develop their achievements? No one knows the answer to this question, because they were the first to approach this barrier. Ahead they have the road literally along the blade of a knife, and the whole world will watch how they do it. The next generation of juniors will be easier, based on the experience gained. If Sasha and Anna can maintain the achieved level, then the question of their relevance in adulthood simply will not arise and they will be ready to meet the young rivals on equal terms. I really hope to see this in 2-3 years.

Thanks for your posting, this was going to be another instalment of my informal essay on the Tutberidze Effect.

Are the coaches in the Crystal Dome, cooperative known as #TeamTutberidzeForProgress realy capable of adapting themselves to changing circumstances?

They demand flexibility and ease of adaptation from their students after all, so should set the example themselves? What is constraining them?

What Alex wondered about in his posting, I will take one step further, will the Tutberidze Effect postpone the onset of obsolescence? Is #TeamTutberidzeForProgress a living, learning organism that grows along with it pupils?

Every athlete has always known he is living on borrowed time, obsolescence is always waiting after the next competition, or the one after that etc..
Competitive life span of athletes in 'coordination sports' of high intensity always has been quite short, so much to learn (often never ending), much less time to deliver results before you start to feel the wear and tear.
Most athletes' careers are ruled by the Olympic Cycle. They aspire to go "citius, altius, fortius", higher, faster and stronger at every Games.

Will there be a limit of what can humanly achieved in our sport? Will there come a counter revolution to bring back the old ways?

On the subject of Medvyedeva and her apparent need to 'unlearn' technique and be re-trained in a different technique, could she have exposed the Achilles heel of #TeamTutberidzeForProgress: nobody wanting to make any drastic changes to the settings and setup of the Tutberidze Effect?

On the subject of Tarakanova and her apparent need for more enjoyable 'laboratory conditions'? Were her personal parameters too far out of line from the median of same age children and was nobody prepared to tweak her back 'in tune' again?
 

macy

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Nov 12, 2011
Will there be a limit of what can humanly achieved in our sport? Will there come a counter revolution to bring back the old ways?

this has crossed my mind several times and i believe we are nearing the limit of what can be physically achieved in skating. i do think there will be one or two skaters who attempt a quint or 4A, but i don't think it's going to be something we start seeing regularly or even put in a competitive program. the risk of injury is too high. i also think there may be a point we will see a man (maybe Nathan) compete an all quad FS (is this even possible under the current system?) but we really aren't too far away from that at all. I think the ladies will eventually catch up to the men technically in the next 5-10 years, but after that, it will most likely stagnate.

this really could be a separate thread in itself...after we reach the limit, i really don't know what will happen.
 

andromache

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Mar 23, 2014
On the subject of Medvyedeva and her apparent need to 'unlearn' technique and be re-trained in a different technique, could she have exposed the Achilles heel of #TeamTutberidzeForProgress: nobody wanting to make any drastic changes to the settings and setup of the Tutberidze Effect?

The technique of Eteri's students has evolved with each "generation" of students. Yulia's technique did not hold up long at all. Zhenya's lasted longer. Alina had better technique at 15 than Zhenya did at the same age, and her jumps appear to be more stable long-term as well. Trusova and Kostornaia have bigger jumps than Alina did, which is a good sign for their longevity, IMO (Shcherbakova's seem smaller, other than her 4Lz, but I'm not sure.)

It was clear that Zhenya's jumps were pretty weak during the 2018 Olympics - they were landed with a thud and very little flow. She really had to grit them out to make them happen.

In addition, she seemed to gain weight/muscle once moving to Orser, which suggests to me that she needed to be a specific thin size to continue to jump like she did at the Olympics (aka, rotating/landing her jumps) and that lower weight might not have been sustainable in the long-term. If she was going to be at a weight/size her body was comfortable with for a longer period of time, her technique needed to be adjusted.

I think this will be less of an issue for Eteri's girls going forward, because the girls younger than Zhenya have better technique. But individual ladies might still have problems depending on if they have any particularly dramatic growth spurts. But I do think it means that the "Tutberidze Effect" IS adapting with every new generation of ladies.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
It seems to me that most of her muscle/weight gain is on upper body. Because i don't see a big difference on legs (and even overall) when i compare her in her black Anna Karenina costume and in the tango black costume of last season. Or even in Anna Karenina red EX dress at 2017 dreams on ice last year and at ice fantasia this year.
 

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
It seems to me that most of her muscle/weight gain is on upper body. Because i don't see a big difference on legs (and even overall) ...
The technique of Eteri's students has evolved with each "generation" of students. Yulia's technique did not hold up long at all. Zhenya's lasted longer. Alina had better technique at 15 than Zhenya did at the same age, and her jumps appear to be more stable long-term as well.
....
Trusova and Kostornaia have bigger jumps than Alina did, which is a good sign for their longevity, IMOI think this will be less of an issue for Eteri's girls going forward, because the girls younger than Zhenya have better technique. But individual ladies might still have problems depending on if they have any particularly dramatic growth spurts. But I do think it means that the "Tutberidze Effect" IS adapting with every new generation of ladies.

Aleksey Zheleznyakov had some interesting things to say about the physical effects different training methods have on the body. I am waiting for my interpretation of the article to return from proofreading, then I will post it right away.

Trainers don't like to waste either their time and efforts, students' potential or future chances of success. But often tough and unpleasant choices still need to be made.

After reading these and other articles, lots of posting, and more, in my mind it all comes down to allocation of resources to the Tutberidze Effect, keeping the production line flowing continuously. They might have wanted to, but simply couldn't keep those skaters on board.

Perhaps with continued success more state money will be allocated, but that will most likely come at the expense of other local clubs and federations. Those will need to improve, to match up, otherwise they will fight over reallocation of money and everything stagnates in bureaucratic procedure? And of course the size and spending of the Ministry of Sports's budget is politically dictated.

So the Crystal Dome seems to be starting to gain a little financial independence by endorsements and sponsorships, running its own shows and promotions, is ever more professionally presenting itself as a coherent unit to the world by their active internet presence on many social media (something which no other rink has a.t.m.).

#TeamTutberidzeForProgress has really put the pressure on and this might still only be the beginning of reaping the benefits from the Tutberidze Effect.
 
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