SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

Anyway, this is going to be great fun.

If the ISU wants to make changes with a minimum of disruption to continuity of scoring, it could go something like this. Each program is tree minutes long. (That’s a good thing right there. :yes: )

Balanced program elements for Technical Program

1. Five jumping passes including one Axel type jump and no more than 2 combos. No repeated jumps, bonus for including all 6 types of take-off.
2. Three spins, with levels.
3. One footwork sequence.

Example (Nathan Chen) Jumps = 4Lz, 4F, 4T+3T, 3Lo+1Eu+3S (or 4S+3Lo if he can), 3A; spins = what he does now (CCSp4, FCCoSp4, CCoSp4), Step sequence = what he does now.

Balanced program rules for Artistic Program

1. Three jumping passes, including an Axel jump and a combination.
2. Three spins (no levels – both difficulty and quality rewarded in GOE).
3. One Footwork Sequence and one Choreograph Step or Spiral Sequence.
4. One Surprise Me! Or Check This Out! Something like a small jump sequence, featuring crazy stuff that the audience has never seen before. (Skater must keep this under wraps – no practice videos allowed).

Maybe the base values for spins could be raised slightly so that a very good spin could get as many points as a routine triple jump.

The skater who can do multiple quads in both programs would still have a big advantage overall, if he can keep his program components up – but that’s sport.

TontoK said:

So, yeah, I get that people are SUPER protective of their favorites. Maybe it comes with age... being able to disconnect from personal emotions about a skater.

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Again, err... have you seen some of those little elderly fans in Japan? Age definitely doesn't wither or weary their personal emotions one little bit

Mathman said:

(Skater must keep this under wraps – no practice videos allowed)

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Oh, no, that's both too hard to police and creates too many opportunities for dirty tricks, e.g. secretly filming a rival's performance (or a fave's rival's performance: never underestimate the sheer vicious spite of fans) and putting it online. It would also mean skaters couldn't reuse and develop that element from competition to competition. 'Signature element' as per the Peggy Fleming Trophy would be a better idea, I think.

Mathman said:

(Skater must keep this under wraps – no practice videos allowed).

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Oh yes, that'll work... if Yuzuru gives ninja lessons to the whole damn sporting fraternity....

And then the rest of you can suffer like us.

Well, I don't like the sound of this, especially having both programs be only 3 minutes long!

Is there a big chance that this will happen? Because I think it might kill they sport.

anonymoose_au said:

Well, I don't like the sound of this, especially having both programs be only 3 minutes long!

Is there a big chance that this will happen? Because I think it might kill they sport.

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They're suppose to be 3:30... which makes the total skating time 20 seconds longer. It's the same length as a junior ladies long program. I personally think that if they want to give out medals for each program that it needs to be longer... and if they don't want to give out medals for each program they have the problem of figure out which order to put them in and how to weigh them.

NaVi said:

They're suppose to be 3:30... which makes the total skating time 20 seconds longer. It's the same length as a junior ladies long program. I personally think that if they want to give out medals for each program that it needs to be longer... and if they don't want to give out medals for each program they have the problem of figure out which order to put them in and how to weigh them.

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If they gave out medals for each category plus an overall medal, that would basically the same as small medals and the overall medal now, just extended to non-championship events.

Thinking about the physical demands of each program, I'd have them skate the Technical program first, then the Artistic, with each weighted equally and the scores just added together for the overall medal. You'd have to figure out a tiebreaker though...maybe a skate-off?

NaVi said:

and if they don't want to give out medals for each program they have the problem of figure out which order to put them in and how to weigh them.

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Which becomes a bigger issue at large events that might need to have qualifying rounds or to make cuts after the first of the two programs.

If everyone skates both programs, and if both are weighted equally, then it doesn't make that much difference which one goes first. Different competitions could switch it up.

If they are going to give out three medals of equal weight, can a skater choose to participate in just one of the programs and not both I wonder? And train specifically for that type of program

Harriet said:

Oh, no, that's both too hard to police and creates too many opportunities for dirty tricks, e.g. secretly filming a rival's performance (or a fave's rival's performance:...)

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Here is how you combat that. You make a few short videos of yourself doing some crazy stuff, like skating on stilts. This is artistic because your music is On the Street Where You Live ("All at once am I ...Several stories high.") Then you create some fake Instagram accounts to post the vids, and blame it on your enemies for leaking your plans. :yes:

However this turns out, I do think that the ISU is not satisfied with how the PCS are determined in the current system. To go back to our favorite example, at the 2019 Worlds short program Nathan Chen scored higher than Jason Brown in 4 of the 5 program components and overall, including a clean sweep of the “artistic” components, Composition, Performance and Interpretation of Music.

What do we make of this? It can’t be national bias or ISU politicking – the skaters are both American. It can’t be reputation – it is Jason, not Nathan, who has a reputation as the more accomplished “second mark” skater. Skate order? Hanyu beat them both on PCSs, skating earlier, and with a big whopping mistake.

Maybe they gave Nathan higher PCS than deserved because he did quads – after all, if you do quads that takes away from concentrating on the performance, so (?) you should get extra PCSs to make up for it? This seems contrary to the principle of scoring the PCS independently of the TES.

From an audience/spectator POV, it’d make the sport less exciting to watch (in my opinion ofc).

friedbanana said:

From an audience/spectator POV, it’d make the sport less exciting to watch (in my opinion ofc).

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To me, I would say, not necessarily. The "artistic program" would still have spectacular jumps and TADA! moments, and the "technical program" would not neglect musicality, choreography, or blade to ice skills. The scoring would just be a little different.

I think some people have the idea that "artistic" means gliding languidly along looking princessy to a soulful ballad. I am looking forward to the opposite. I think there will be a lot of "artistic" programs in the style of, say, Keegan Messing -- show us what you got!

Here is my notion of what a perfect artistic program should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j07i-cqZgg

(Then he could do it again and call it the technical program.)

Mathman said:

Here is my notion of what a perfect artistic program should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j07i-cqZgg

(Then he could do it again and call it the technical program.)

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A lot of folk would be in that (There's also 2017 Hope and Legacy...)

I suppose you could say that, especially with the rise of multiple quads and the cut in the freeskate length, it's got harder for them to fit everything they want in, since they are trying to fit it all into both programs. Splitting them would, I guess, give the skaters room to breath and spread what they want to show us out a little...

And then again, clear demarcation may mean that as the sport gets used to the idea, we start gradually seeing more variety on the two respective podiums (or not, given the judges would probably still be the same dubious lot, but whatever). I mean, how many in either singles' field have genuinely superior, let alone superlative, skills in both fields?

Mathman said:

To me, I would say, not necessarily. The "artistic program" would still have spectacular jumps and TADA! moments, and the "technical program" would not neglect musicality, choreography, or blade to ice skills. The scoring would just be a little different.

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Em.. no?
What makes fs exciting? It's symbiosis between atristry (skating) and sport (jumps).Even the most avid sport fans wouldn't want to see pure figure jumping comps without much of performance qualities. In the same vein the artistry fans wouldn't want to see shows with minimum jumps - even if they don't realize it yet. Else ice dance and single dance competitions would be much more popular than they are.
That said what we will get with new system? We will get two boring programs instead of two exciting ones. Technical program will be jumpfest with much less focus on artistry that there are now in short. Why? Because why bother to put PCS aspects there if it has much less weight and impact on scores? Of couse focus will be more on jumps and performance will be afterthought. With how judges assess PCS usually - it's more depends on tech content and less on actual performance anyway. Will it be worse than current short program? Of course it will.
Artistry program will turn into current SP but with less difficult jumps, sloppy spins and steps. Why bother with tech elements if they will cost less? Will it be worse than current free program? Of course it will. It will turn in reputational judging fest anyway - where what you do on ice don't even matter.
Also they will shorten time and number of jumps for both programs, it seems. Therefore true sport fans remains unsatisfied forever - since one of the most "sport-like" things about current fs - is FP layout, many jumps during long time and watching how a skater is managing his stamina to make it through 4 minutes of 11 physically demanding jumps without mistakes. And those who can success with that - were worthy the most sincerest acclaim as a great athlete. Now such entertainment will be gone - all for the sake of more weaker/older skaters, who aren't able to skate such demanding programs but who wants medals too. Instead of taking example from the strongest athlethes and upgrade this sport encouraging technical evolution - they try to level the field for the sake of weaker athletes and degrade the sport turning it into some show. Disgusting :disapp::disagree:

Can't help it, don't like this idea. Even though Mathman showed us a way in which it might work (my thanks for that), the problem would be in maintaining FS as an Olympic sport. And, no, it's not bacause I see Artistic as just gliding and spiralling and Technical as just jumps. Then we could have a jump programme and an spiralling and spinning programme. I am one of those Adult figure skaters doing it for fun and I know how hard it is to do 'just' the artistic bit. I like the idea of having a SP with just required elements, including artistic ones and a LP that is also technical but requires more stamina and demands both elements and sheer good skating. That this notion makes it difficult to judge properly, is just part of the game. Work on the judging. Although, and that might be, as we Dutch would say, swearing in the Church, to much to hope for in any system. While on the other hand, I really don't think the wrong people got onto the podium the last few years. At all. And not in any discipline.

Elucidus said:

Therefore true sport fans remains unsatisfied forever - since one of the most "sport-like" things about current fs - is FP layout, many jumps during long time and watching how a skater is managing his stamina to make it through 4 minutes of 11 physically demanding jumps without mistakes. And those who can success with that - were worthy the most sincerest acclaim as a great athlete. Now such entertainment will be gone - all for the sake of more weaker/older skaters, who aren't able to skate such demanding programs but who wants medals too. Instead of taking example from the strongest athlethes and upgrade this sport encouraging technical evolution - they try to level the field for the sake of weaker athletes and degrade the sport turning it into some show. Disgusting :disapp::disagree:

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And of course this emphasis on the "4 minutes of 11 physically demanding jumps without mistakes" is why the sport has become so vastly more popular worldwide since the rise and hyping of skaters who specialise in that at at least some expense of artistry. And why the latter are clearly the ones who draw crowds and bring fans/money to the sport[/sarcasm].

As you say, it's the symbiosis. Which is unquestionably unbalanced at the minute.

To be honest -? I'm pretty much agin the state with the proposal, at least partly because I don't trust TPTB to implement it or judges to judge it... and I can only think of a handful of skaters who (as I said) have the superlative skills on both sides to excel without PCS fudging. But I can see the whys and wherefores of trying to correct the tech-at-all-costs push.

Most of the discussion in this thread has revolved around the men but I believe it's the women's discipline that the ISU is most concerned about. The way it looks now they are facing years of ladies dominance by Russia with maybe the occasional medal by others like Kihira/Tursenbaeva/Liu. But maybe if they create an "artistic" medal event others would have a chance, especially if they disallow quads for the ladies. Has Caro officially retired? She could probably medal with a clean skate and a 3-2.

Elucidus said:

Em.. no?

What makes fs exciting? It's symbiosis between atristry (skating) and sport (jumps).

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Yes, everyone agrees with that, including Alexander Lakernik and the ISU. The "artistic" program would feature jumps and the "technical" program would have artistic expectations. It is just a question of whether an adequate judging scheme can be developed to reward a broader and more creative variety of approaches to the desired symbiosis.

sheetz said:

Most of the discussion in this thread has revolved around the men but I believe it's the women's discipline that the ISU is most concerned about. The way it looks now they are facing years of ladies dominance by Russia with maybe the occasional medal by others like Kihira/Tursenbaeva/Liu. But maybe if they create an "artistic" medal event others would have a chance, especially if they disallow quads for the ladies. Has Caro officially retired? She could probably medal with a clean skate and a 3-2.

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But national dominance within disciplines is cyclical, isn't it? I mean the US ladies were the gold standard for so long, and dance was an international afterthought for the most part. Back in the early years of my fanhood, Soviet ladies were a bit of a joke, but they routinely swept the medals in pairs and dance. It's been relatively recently that Japan has been an international player, although their fans have been devout for much longer.

So just because the Russian girls are the current sensation, I don't think the ISU would re-invent the scoring system in response. Or maybe I misread your post... or, more unlikely, I'm just wrong.