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Thread: SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

  1. #341
    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    As long as the top single skaters can score 20% higher in TES than the maximum score for PCS, every program is a "technical program".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinA View Post
    My hope would be, and I like this idea, that it would look like Jason Brown. I think a skater should be able to win on their strength whether it be rotations or artistic.
    You know, seeing the SA results - I feel the current system is perfectly capable of rewarding high enough skaters like Jason Brown I mean - a quadless skater with popped jumps won against artistically strong skater with great SS and 4 clean quads. What's more you can ask for?

    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    As long as the top single skaters can score 20% higher in TES than the maximum score for PCS, every program is a "technical program".
    So, Medvedeva in Shanghai Trophy skated an "artistic program"? I see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus
    It would look like ice dance.
    Oh no, not at all. It would be like the short program. The "balanced program" concept limits the number of jumps while providing opportunities to score tech points in other ways.

    Right now the short program has more non-jump scoring elements than jumping passes (4 to 3), while the opposite is true in the Free Skate (5 non-jumping elements, 7 jumping passes).

    It wouldn't take much tweaking of the rules (make the two programs of equal length) to achieve the ISU's goals. The big quadsters would still have the advantage over the "artists" with less firepower, and fans of all stripes would have something to cheer.
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-22-2019 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh no, not at all. It would be like the short program. The "balanced program" concept limits the number of jumps while providing opportunities to score tech points in other ways.

    Right now the short program has more non-jump scoring elements than jumping passes (4 to 3), while the opposite is true in the Free Skate (5 non-jumping elements, 7 jumping passes).

    It wouldn't take much tweaking of the rules (make the two programs of equal length) to achieve the ISU's goals. The big quadsters would still have the advantage over the "artists" with less firepower, and fans of all stripes would have something to cheer.
    Why have mere "something" when they are having so much more now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh no, not at all. It would be like the short program. The "balanced program" concept limits the number of jumps while providing opportunities to score tech points in other ways.

    Right now the short program has more non-jump scoring elements than jumping passes (4 to 3), while the opposite is true in the Free Skate (5 non-jumping elements, 7 jumping passes).

    It wouldn't take much tweaking of the rules (make the two programs of equal length) to achieve the ISU's goals. The big quadsters would still have the advantage over the "artists" with less firepower, and fans of all stripes would have something to cheer.
    I would be concerned about this in that you would lose the possibility to have 'real masterpieces' in the future. Mini masterpieces yes, just like you have in the SP now, but you wouldn't get those programs that get a standing ovation at the end and really add to the competition. Most great SPs get very warm applause, but not standing ovations from what I can tell.

    However I could certainly go for a slightly longer SP i.e. one with 1 or 2 extra sequences, and that could act as the artistic program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    As long as the top single skaters can score 20% higher in TES than the maximum score for PCS, every program is a "technical program".
    TES is not only about 'technical'. Every element is evaluated in percieved quality, connection with the program (transitions in and out) and connection with the music (element matches the music). Other 'artistic' criterias as originality/creativity/variety are also part of some GOE bullets and as that part of TES too. And choreo seqs are more 'artistic' elements in its core. What is purely 'tehnical' in TES is base value of the element. As some 'technical' criterias are integral part of PCS too.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh no, not at all. It would be like the short program.
    Oh, interesting thought! All through this discussion I've been operating on the assumption that of course the SP would evolve into the technical program, because that's where it evolved from already - but if the FS becomes the new technical program and the SP the new artistic program (or whatever names they decide on in the end), that offers more interesting opportunities. Especially if they shift the choreographic sequence from the (now) FS to the (now) SP, and possibly open up more footwork options for the step sequence instead of keeping the same requirements for both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Most great SPs get very warm applause, but not standing ovations from what I can tell.
    Carolina Kostner's SP at 2018 Worlds definitely got a standing ovation. (I participated.)

    Admittedly, it was in Italy.

    I'm sure there are other examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Carolina Kostner's SP at 2018 Worlds definitely got a standing ovation. (I participated.)

    Admittedly, it was in Italy.

    I'm sure there are other examples.
    Yeah. I think that program also got the best ever marks in components (taking into account both ladies and man, and both SP and FPs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Carolina Kostner's SP at 2018 Worlds definitely got a standing ovation. (I participated.)

    Admittedly, it was in Italy.

    I'm sure there are other examples.
    Yagudin's Winter in 2002 Olympics

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Carolina Kostner's SP at 2018 Worlds definitely got a standing ovation. (I participated.)

    I'm sure there are other examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Yagudin's Winter in 2002 Olympics
    OK, but my point is that they would be much rarer, and I think it would be a loss if you didn't get them, a program might 'just be getting going', then suddenly it's over, which is what I often seem to find with SPs, and you lose that 'moment' that you often get with a full 4 minute free skate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Yeah. I think that program also got the best ever marks in components (taking into account both ladies and man, and both SP and FPs).
    In SP, yes. In FP, Evgenia Medvedeva’s crazy 78 from 2017 WTT still beats it, as it would translate to a 39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randomfan View Post
    In SP, yes. In FP, Evgenia Medvedeva’s crazy 78 from 2017 WTT still beats it, as it would translate to a 39.
    I didn't take in consideration all the competions existing in the world. Just major ones - Olympics & Worlds & even Europeans/4CC (& probably Grand prix). I mean, many of the skaters got their best scores at WTT, so i don't find it very demonstrative when we are talking about records. So, i was talking about Olympics and Worlds scores, where i found the scoring as the most accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    I didn't take in considerations all the competions existing in the world. Just major ones - Olympics & Worlds & even Europeans/4CC (& probably Grand prix). I mean, many of the skaters got their best scores at WTT, so i don't find it very demonstrative when we are talking about records. So, i was talking about Olympics and Worlds scores, where i found the scoring as the most accurate.
    Technically, WTT is considered to be an official ISU event, so the scores achieved here should still count towards the records and rankings. But I do understand where you’re coming from - it’s more significant to get higher scores at Olympics and Worlds than WTT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    OK, but my point is that they would be much rarer, and I think it would be a loss if you didn't get them, a program might 'just be getting going', then suddenly it's over, which is what I often seem to find with SPs, and you lose that 'moment' that you often get with a full 4 minute free skate.
    Well, if both programs end up being 3 1/2 minutes, which I seem to remember seeing proposed, then they would both be equally likely to earn standing Os.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, if both programs end up being 3 1/2 minutes, which I seem to remember seeing proposed, then they would both be equally likely to earn standing Os.
    This famous program is the type of thing I would envision for the "artistic prorgam" (Michelle Kwan, 1998 World Pro). It is 3 1/2 minutes long, with 4 jumping passes, a double Axel and three triple jumps including a triple Lutz. (state of the art for 1998). It also had a long (15 seconds) change-edge, backward-forward spiral sequence all on one foot, a very dramatic split falling leaf into an inside-outside spread eagle, and many engaging choreographic details.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags&t=2s

    For the "technical program" in that same pro-am competition she did 7 jumps, and in fact debuted her competitive LP for that season. (Somewhat longer -- more than 4 minutes.) This might have been her best performance of that program (Arianne). But it is the "artistic program" that Michelle fans revere and remember.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Why have mere "something" when they are having so much more now?
    Because for a good chunk of its fans, it's figure skating, NOT figure jumping.

    And isn't a complete package "so much more" than a jumpfest?

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Because for a good chunk of its fans, it's figure skating, NOT figure jumping.

    And isn't a complete package "so much more" than a jumpfest?
    I'm borrowing a point someone else made on another thread, so this is not entirely original thought - but it's relevant.

    At Skate America, Jason beat every skater but one. The only guy who beat him is the World Champion. Jason had what I think we can agree is middle-of-the-pack jump content, and he had the disadvantage of limited training time due to a recent concussion. His strongest fans are already contemplating that he has a reasonable chance of making the GPF.

    My point is that he can compete with bigger jumpers. Jason and other So-called artistic skaters can make it to the medal stand, but they have to do what they are capable of very well.

    On the flip side, the stronger technical skaters who did not deliver on their strengths... Jason beat those guys.

    If your argument is that a skater like Jason can't beat a skater like Hanyu or Nathan when they're on... well, Jason can get in line. Nobody else can beat them when they're on their best form either.

  19. #359
    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    TES is not only about 'technical'. Every element is evaluated in percieved quality, connection with the program (transitions in and out) and connection with the music (element matches the music). Other 'artistic' criterias as originality/creativity/variety are also part of some GOE bullets and as that part of TES too. And choreo seqs are more 'artistic' elements in its core. What is purely 'tehnical' in TES is base value of the element. As some 'technical' criterias are integral part of PCS too.
    Sure, I can see that artistic merit does play a part in GOE. The position, timing, and creativity are some of the minor GOE bullets. That said, if there's no cap on TES and it frequently surpasses the maximum score for PCS (and a portion of PCS is how clean your program was technically), the weight of TES will always have precedence over PCS.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, if both programs end up being 3 1/2 minutes, which I seem to remember seeing proposed, then they would both be equally likely to earn standing Os.
    Aah, I’d somehow got the idea that both were going to be 3 minutes long (was somehow wondering how you were going to add 2 sequences to a SP with only 20 extra seconds). However am still a bit concerned. Was thinking all along about Savchenko and Massot’s Long Program at the Olympics, mind you that was 4.5 minutes long, so you couldn’t even do that these days, somehow feel that you’re trying to shoehorn something into something that might not quite fit.

    N.B. What is happening with Pairs? Will it be covered by this, or is it Singles only? (I assume Dance is unchanged).

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