SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

katmari

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
Country
United-States
Sounds like a great way to decimate most of the fans the sport has gained over the last few quads.

Or gain back the fans who left when the scoring focus helped the sport become a quad fest / ice jumping competition with little artistic merit.

(I stopped following the sport for many years after 2002 because of the quad / splat fest and only returned because of Jason Brown's Riverdance program.)
 

Lamente Ariane

Skating Skills -5, Fashion +3, Camp +4
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Or gain back the fans who left when the scoring focus helped the sport become a quad fest / ice jumping competition with little artistic merit.

How would having one program of just jumps be an improvement?
 

katmari

Final Flight
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Feb 21, 2014
Country
United-States
How would having one program of just jumps be an improvement?

I think both sides of the artistic vs technical argument are so far apart in their viewpoints that agreement will never be reached on the right balance.

I can see the sport moving more to the gymnastics model with there being two specialties (artistic / technical) and separate medals awarded. Then the skaters who compete in both specialties and have the highest overall total would win an all-around medal as well.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think the "short" program years ago was about ice figures, patterning, and little else..

My recollection is that the short program initially included a list of required jumps, spins and moves in the field, but that skaters were still expected to weave the elements together to music and make a program out of tbem. It was invented because school figures were regarded as boring from a spectator's perspective in the television age. Plus, delightful crowd-pleasers like Janet Lynn were losing to less marketable figures specialists like Trixie Schuba.

Over the years the free program has become less free and now the short program is just the same as the free program, except (mercifully?) a little shorter.

The proposed "technical program"and "artistic program" is the format that some pro competitions used in the past. As I recall the only difference was that the number of jumps allowed in the artistic program was more limited (4 instead of 7, or something like that) and the music was usually slower and more soulful.

Here is an example, from the 1998 World Pro.

Technical Program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0bggmmcVTs

Artistic Program :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags

To me, the technical program looks pretty artistic and the artiistic program is full of marvels of skating technique -- but what do I know? ;)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
can see the sport moving more to the gymnastics model with there being two specialties (artistic / technical) and separate medals awarded. Then the skaters who compete in both specialties and have the highest overall total would win an all-around medal as well.

My suggestion would be based on the model of old-time stock car racing.

First, there should be a "trophy dash." This is a short anything goes race and if you win, you get a trophy, sort of like small medal (only bigger). You are the trophy dash winner and you get to display your trophy in your trophy case as the "Skate America Trophy Dash Winner."

Now that's over and the audience is properly warmed up for the real race, for points. This is the only one that counts toward "world cup winner," making the grand prix final, etc.

I would not want to separate "jumping" from "artistry." Jumps punctuate musical highlights, allow choreogrpahy to build to climax and denouement, etc. Likewise I would not be interested in a series of jumps with no skating.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
I would really have to see the details of such a proposal before deciding if it's an improvement or not. Not sure if the article addresses that at all, since it's not in a language I speak.

Personally, I think pairs and ice dance are fine the way they are at present. But in singles, there is an overemphasis on jumps that has been detrimental to the artistic side of the sport. There are all kinds of reasons for that, including, IMO that the judging system already in place is not being applied properly.

Anyway, it's all purely speculative at this point.
 

TallyT

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Apr 23, 2018
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Australia
They'll need to put serious work - and points - into the technical but non jumping elements then. But while the powerful federations have jumpers, they won't.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Jan 1, 2013
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This is an awful idea primarily because figure skating has stuck itself to one narrow-minded definition of artistry and anyone who's even slightly different or doesn't quite fit that tag is hit with the un-artistic label, never to have their score improve ever.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
They'll need to put serious work - and points - into the technical but non jumping elements then. But while the powerful federations have jumpers, they won't.

That is an interesting question. Changes like this are voted on by the membership, which is numerically dominated by the smaller and "less powerful" federations. Who will prevail?

When the change was in the works to phase out school figures, it was the United States (then a powerful federation) that generally opposed the changes. But the great majority of small federations (led by Italy) were all for the change because they lacked the facilities to develop a lot of figures experts.
 

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
What a dumb idea. They will truly destroy the sport if they implement this...
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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I could see the artistic program being set up similar to the Peggy Fleming Trophy.

Jason Brown won it this year with his performance of Waving Through a Window. His comments about the competition are in the August-September issue of Skating Magazine:

A program like that of the Peggy Fleming Trophy is a good idea, I had even forgotten about it:palmf:

Jumping off from this, and not directed at your post, @katmari, for my money, bringing the sport back to these roots may be the best way to grow memebership. Measuring jump heights, scouring edges, counting revolutions: a sure way to lose even more viewers and become even more a niche sport, IMO.

But of course I feel that way because that’s what I like. Someone who likes another style may feel differently. :)

And we have absolutely no way to prove what will or won’t work, so we can all be assured we’re right:agree:
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I would much rather an additional segment be created like the Peggy Flemming Trophy, with completely different scoring and medals.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
No it would look something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ipSYfIyqII

Too many jumps for artistic program. Again, rewatch Wagner's performance - she did only 2 (TWO) jumps there and she got almost maximum scores. That's artistic program.

So the importance of "technical" has been decreased once in FS and could certainly be addressed again. IMO :)
Difference is - that technical was deathly boring. Whereas modern fs is very exciting as it is now. There is no need to change anything - at least not in an area where all is good.
 

beachmouse

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
I think both sides of the artistic vs technical argument are so far apart in their viewpoints that agreement will never be reached on the right balance.

I can see the sport moving more to the gymnastics model with there being two specialties (artistic / technical) and separate medals awarded. Then the skaters who compete in both specialties and have the highest overall total would win an all-around medal as well.

It actually makes me think old school artistic gymnastics and the days of the compulsory program where everyone did the same program and judging was about how well each element was executed compared to the other athlete.

In other words, like how ice dancing used to have the compulsory dance.

I'm actually a fan of the compulsory programs like that because I feel like it encourages well rounded skating/gymnastics rather than giving athletes too much room to work around weaknesses. I'm also in the camp that says if you define the standards correctly in the compulsory elements list, you can also encourage the development of technique that is less awkward-looking and healthier for the athlete.

Not everything athletic event has to be designed with mass market global television audiences in mind, and hey, the compulsory program is still a lot less boring than the figures days.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think the "short" program years ago was about ice figures, patterning, and little else.. I like it's evolution into full-fledged programs but I wonder how many skaters would pass the "figures" test nowadays... there have been comps fairly recently that highlight pattern skating, I think, one with figures on black or dark ice outlined in white..
This sounds perfectly in keeping with FS aesthetics to me, but I understand, to some, it would be like watching paint dry..:biggrin:

No.. compulsory figures were an entirely different competition. So you had compulsory figures, the short program, and the free program (which is no longer free at all). There was an American lady (help me out here guys) who was very good at figures, but not as good at the short or the long, so when the competition got to TV (they did not show figures except for a 5 minute recap) they just told you who was leading after figures. They took it out (for TV as far as I know). I often wonder how we can call it "figure skating" when there are no figures. Shouldn't it just be ice skating?

Here is a video of figures https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWzJRlVrVA

And a wiki article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWzJRlVrVA


Actually, after looking at the wiki article, until 1947 figures made up 60% of the scoring. That was a bit before my time though.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Personally, I think pairs and ice dance are fine the way they are at present. But in singles, there is an overemphasis on jumps that has been detrimental to the artistic side of the sport.
Two kinds of fs suffering many years stagnation and being practically on the brink of extinction you called as fine. Whereas singles going through unprecedented boom of popularity now - you see as in dire need of "fixing". Well, duh.. :drama:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Too many jumps for artistic program.

I don't agree that three jumping passes are too many for an artistic program (4 would be perfect :) ). What makes the program artistic is not the number of jumps but how well the jumps are woven into the choreography, how well they are matched to the music, how much they contribute to the aesthetic concept of the program as a whole.

Look at the short sequence with the split jump leading into the combination. So smooth that you don't even notice that he is jumping. He is just presenting his program as an integral whole. It happens to feature jumps at appropriate places.

Again, rewatch Wagner's performance - she did only 2 (TWO) jumps there and she got almost maximum scores. That's artistic program.

No, Ashley did not a do a competitive artistic program. She did a show program.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cPgAAOSwr-ZdL3T3/s-l300.jpg

No one is talking about that.

But I applaud Ashley even so. She is retired from competition. She doesn't have to skate at all. Still, her performance was entertaining, she sashayed to the music, the crowd welcomed her -- good for her! :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
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moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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Two kinds of fs suffering many years stagnation and being practically on the brink of extinction you called as fine. Whereas singles going through unprecedented boom of popularity now - you see as in dire need of "fixing". Well, duh.. :drama:

How in the heck is ice dancing practically on the brink of extinction? We have great teams and more coming up. Pairs I have to agree...and I don't know why..I think pairs is the most fun to watch.

- - - Updated - - -

But I applaud Ashley even so. She is retired from competition. She doesn't have to skate at all. Still, her performance was entertaining, she sashayed to the music, the crowd welcomed her -- good for her! :clap: :clap: :clap:

And I think she had fun!! At least I hope so.
 

Alexz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Country
United-States
so that's going to be Quad Jumping Battle for SP and Single Ice Dance for FS? NOooooooOoOooooooo... :drama:
 
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