SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Would they do something fundamental like this a year before Olympics? I enjoy it as is atm, I really do not like how in ice dance the first program was pretty much the same for everyone, one of the reasons I do not watch it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
so that's going to be Quad Jumping Battle for SP and Single Ice Dance for FS? NOooooooOoOooooooo... :drama:

No, it won't be anything like that. "Technical" and "Artistic" are just words. No need to be afraid of them (yet ;) ). We will have to see what the actual proposal is, if it is ever put before the ISU Council.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I really do not like how in ice dance the first program was pretty much the same for everyone, one of the reasons I do not watch it.

That was really the whole idea behind the short program. (Although in ice dance they also had the compulsories.)

In the short program, everyone did exactly the same elements, so the judges could compare them and decide who did them best. In the long, the skaters were given a little more freedom of expression and were judged in part by how well they took advantage of it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Actually, after looking at the wiki article, until 1947 figures made up 60% of the scoring.

Not only that, but also the scoring of figures could have a really big range, for instance between first and second place. So it often happened that the leader in figures was so far ahead that the free skating part became irrelevant.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
That was really the whole idea behind the short program. (Although in ice dance they also had the compulsories.)

In the short program, everyone did exactly the same elements, so the judges could compare them and decide who did them best. In the long, the skaters were given a little more freedom of expression and were judged in part by how well they took advantage of it.

Right, but they still have a different layout vs what I saw in the ice dance — I only watched it during the Olympics, but I remember them endlessly showing the breakdown of the rink, and how they should do this here and that there... i never had the impression of the sameness in the short in singles. In fact, I often find them more upbeat and fun to watch than free, particularly below the top ten folks.

And, yup, I am pretty sure I am one of those people who’d be bored by jump-free artistic programs, particularly to mellower themes.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In fact, I often find (short programs) more upbeat and fun to watch than free, particularly below the top ten folks.

Me, too. Over the years the short has become longer and the free has become less free. They should get rid of the long program altogether and just go with the short. See who can come up with the the most exquisite gem.

The only problem I see is that if the skaters prepared only one program each season then they would get bored spending hour after hour in the rink practicing the same old, same old.
 
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rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Two kinds of fs suffering many years stagnation and being practically on the brink of extinction you called as fine. Whereas singles going through unprecedented boom of popularity now - you see as in dire need of "fixing". Well, duh.. :drama:

Actually, I'd say that ice dance is more popular now than it's ever been. And pairs is really only stagnating in some countries.

And yes, I do think there are problematic things going on in singles. You may not agree, but disrespect of an opposing opinion is hardly called for.
 

ankifeather

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Why not just introduce two new discipline - singles ice dancing and singles ice jumping, if they really want to accommodate those that can only jump and those that cannot jump, and leave the current singles figure skating discipline as it is and not mess with it. Everyone can go find what suits them then.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Me, too. Over the years the short has become longer and the free has become less free. They should get rid of the long program altogether and just go with the short. See who can come up with the the most exquisite gem.

The only problem I see is that if the skaters prepared only one program each season then they would get bored spending hour after hour in the rink practicing the same old, same old.

Nah, I want free too, it is like that little girl with a curl, when she was good, she was very, very good :)

I don’t think ice dance has problems, just not something I like, and I would not want singles turn into ice dance by oneself.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
Why not just introduce two new discipline - singles ice dancing and singles ice jumping, if they really want to accommodate those that can only jump and those that cannot jump, and leave the current singles figure skating discipline as it is and not mess with it. Everyone can go find what suits them then.

Solo ice dance already exists.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think the "short" program years ago was about ice figures, patterning, and little else.. I like it's evolution into full-fledged programs but I wonder how many skaters would pass the "figures" test nowadays... there have been comps fairly recently that highlight pattern skating, I think, one with figures on black or dark ice outlined in white..
This sounds perfectly in keeping with FS aesthetics to me, but I understand, to some, it would be like watching paint dry..:biggrin:

Compulsory Figures were separate for a very long time. Also the part that I bolded in quoting you: Hardly anyone nowadays would be able to pass the figures sector of a competition. I can count very few singles skaters not even on both hands that would be able to pass this. A few of the more recent retired skaters, yes, but now hardly.

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For other posts and comments I have seen in this thread, this would not decimate the current fans it would root out who really loves the sport for what it is supposed to be. Not jump jump jump jump jump, empty rest of program and no feel for the music and no real edge quality.
 

frida80

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
They just changed the scoring system last season. Are they really going to make such a huge change right before the Olympic Season?


Besides it sounds ghastly. The point of an figure skating is to be a sport not a dance. If people can’t master high level jumps, we shouldn’t be lowering the bar for them. It’s like making everyone run slower for the slow pokes in the back. Why would anyone want to see Usain run slower? Would anyone like to see Simone not do ultra hard moves like that double triple she just did? It would take the fun out of everything.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Me, too. Over the years the short has become longer and the free has become less free. They should get rid of the long program altogether and just go with the short. See who can come up with the the most exquisite gem.

The only problem I see is that if the skaters prepared only one program each season then they would get bored spending hour after hour in the rink practicing the same old, same old.

I like seeing two programs.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Jumps are not the only element that make figure skating a sport.

Jumps are not the only, the most, or the best form of athleticism in figure skating.

And jump fests for jump fests sake? For me, boring.....:bed:

That said, I love a good jump. Who doesn't? ;) But I love all the other aspects of figure skating, which are just as athletic and just as fun. Including performance and artistry.

That doesn't mean I'd like to see singles skating become skating solo dance, where did that come from? (god bless solo ice dancers, but that's not what I was talking about). Or one or two jumps a program. Not sure where that came from either :think:

But hey, no one, sadly, is ever going to do just exactly what I want anyway. :laugh:
 

NaVi

Medalist
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
There are a few ways this could be done well... but it could be done really badly. This post is going ramble quite a bit because I'm pretty tired now but...

I wish the ISU would actually publish proposals on their website and then let people submit comments to them(even if the comments were not made public). A lot of government agencies do this... as do programming languages and many open programming standards(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments). I wish the ISU had a congress once a year because it seems like these people just don't talk to each that often and so many decision seem to be either made in crisis are made way too late.

If figure skating is an art form what separates it from other art forms? What does it do well and what does it not do so well? The 3 things figure skating could be good as a medium are kinesthetic beauty, emotional affect( that mirrors the music), and just basic musical visualization... with complex story telling being something a few can do OK but it's not too great a medium for because of the acrobatic elements. But artistry in general needs flexibility and spontaneity... and it is the over calculating mentality of the judging system that is greatly responsible for the decline in artistry(but not solely... I think our broader culture has gone in decline... slow dancing is dead... romantic comedies are dead... any sort of romanticism is dead...) It's a bit weird for the ISU to want everything to be microscopically mechanically comparable and then shorten programs to make way for commercials and then start wondering if they should institute an "artistic" program.

Which is to say, if you want more artistry in figure skating then the first thing that should be done is to free the free skate and add a bit more time. The free skates are too similar from skater to skater. The free skates are too similar from the same skater between years. There is not enough time and freedom to engage with the music... especially with the spins... which is needed for the emoting and visualizing which accounts most of what is called "artistry" in figure skating.

The desire for comparability has made things way too uniform. It should be possible to spit up the steps into 2 or 3 sections(or keep it in one). I wish the IJS style spins should be kept completely out of the FS. It should be possible to replace a spin or a 2A with a spiral. Or take out a 3rd of a step sequence and do a spiral. People should have time to do whatever the heck they want.

I'm a little bothered by the labels "Artistic" and "Technical"... and I'm bothered because they're easy labels to pick that probably won't work that well... they both need part of one another so strict labels don't make much sense. "Artistic-oriented" and "Technical-oriented" could work... but in this case which one is the dominant program? A better naming scheme would be "Artistic" and "Free"/"Full" or "Technical" and "Free"/"Full".

My ideal system for figure skating is...

Solo Ice Dance like program focused on steps, spirals, and IJS style spins
Artistic Program - 4 minutes, 5 jump passes, no combinations, gala lights... or 3:40, 3-4 jump passes, 1 combination or jump sequence w/ no penalty for sequence, gala lights
Free Program - that is much more free than it is currently...

The best way to do it under his schema is.
Artistic-oriented Program: 4 minutes, 5 jump passes or 4 jump passes with 1 combo/sequence, gala lights...
Technical-oriented Program: The same as our currently freeskate though it could be loosened up a little bit... maybe let the step sequence be split.

If the real goal is to get each kind of program introduced as an Olympic medal awarding event, I would greatly consider having the jumps in the Artistic-oriented Program judged by their time in the air as a way of keeping it more "sport-like".

The only way this can work is if both were seen as having equal value... which to a great extent really means equal time allotted... which means getting the tv networks on board. I'm pushing the whole "gala lights" aspect because I think more people would show up for an artistic program under gala lights than for say the SP. And I think tv networks would have more interest in showing programs that are longer than the SP if they were done under gala lighting.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
I do not like the voluntarism of what is happening. That is, they are changing the sport in a grandiose manner, on a fundamental level. And what, they do not want to know the opinion of hundreds of thousands (and perhaps even millions) of fans around?

These guys do not grow bread, do not mine coal and do not build power plants (that which has objective value). All their value is in our eyes and hearts. Without us, it’s just a meaningless ride on pieces of iron on ice. Therefore, we must be asked whether we want a fundamental change in sports.
 

sheetz

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
They just changed the scoring system last season. Are they really going to make such a huge change right before the Olympic Season?

When this idea was brought up before they said it would take some time before such a change was implemented. Right now it sounds like it's just in the conceptual phase so if they do decide on the change I believe it wouldn't be implemented until after 2026.
 

beachmouse

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Besides it sounds ghastly. The point of an figure skating is to be a sport not a dance. If people can’t master high level jumps, we shouldn’t be lowering the bar for them. It’s like making everyone run slower for the slow pokes in the back. Why would anyone want to see Usain run slower? Would anyone like to see Simone not do ultra hard moves like that double triple she just did? It would take the fun out of everything.

It's not just completing high level jumps I want to see. I want them to be completed well and in a visually pleasing manner.

As for Simone, I think a return to a token compulsory requirement in gymnastics would only serve to illustrate just how much better she is than anyone else. The announcers and producers at her last meet did some great split screen comparisons of just how much better her vaults were in terms of both power and execution and it really was impressive.
 
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