SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Jumps are not the only element that make figure skating a sport.

They are :)
You see, all other elements weight too little - and it's too hard to assess them objectively. And even if they judged correctly - differences between good spinner and mediocre spinner would be couple of points per spin at best. Falls from spin or steps are rare - it all will end with the same level of judging as exists in dance - reputational judging. Because everyone do the same elements which differs little - judges are compelled to scrutinize minituae of rather trivial elements which unavoidably leads to voluntarism and vagueness in judging..
On other hand jumps are fair. They are hard elements with very clear criterias - you either can do them or you can't. Jumps don't lie.
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
You see, all other elements weight too little - and it's too hard to assess them objectively... On other hand jumps are fair. They are hard elements with very clear criterias - you either can do them or you can't. Jumps don't lie.
*thinks back to the many years in which jumps have been judged with strict objectivity, without anyone ever disagreeing over things like URs, downgrades, edge calls, PR, or GOE.*
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
They are :)
You see, all other elements weight too little - and it's too hard to assess them objectively. And even if they judged correctly - differences between good spinner and mediocre spinner would be couple of points per spin at best. Falls from spin or steps are rare - it all will end with the same level of judging as exists in dance - reputational judging. Because everyone do the same elements which differs little - judges are compelled to scrutinize minituae of rather trivial elements which unavoidably leads to voluntarism and vagueness in judging..
On other hand jumps are fair. They are hard elements with very clear criterias - you either can do them or you can't. Jumps don't lie.

In addition (at least for me) jumping brings a taste of risk. Beauty becomes much more valuable if you know that it can be taken away at any second. I like the skaters not only because they are artists, but also because they ... like warriors. They must create their beauty and protect it every second. It is delightful and heartbreaking at the same time. Without jumping, without this risk - it will be a completely different sport.
 

Winnie_20

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
When this idea was brought up before [...]

Oh, thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I am sure I heard about this idea quite a while ago already. Anyone know where it originates from? I have a vague recollection of maybe hearing Jeroen Prins mention it on Dutch Eurosport commentary, but...
 

aka_gerbil

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Basically I see the idea as gala shows with scores - and it's the most disgusting thing you can do to a competitive sport.

I shared this thought elsewhere, but this tweet from Two For the Ice sums up my feelings on the proposal: https://twitter.com/twofortheice/status/1165431402776662017

IMO, if this comes to pass, then skating should be thrown out of the Olympics. The Olympics are an athletic competition, a sporting event. You cannot count as sport something that has a wholly subjective segment. Changing the format to include an entirely artistic program would make skating not a sport anymore, but an art. The Olympics aren't an art competition.

If they wanted to stay in the games, then I guess the Olympic events could be competed solely on the athletic programs.

Skating is at a crossroads here. It has to decide if it wants to remain a sport, which means we do not have program segments that are entirely subjective. If skating does go for an entirely subjective segment, then it’s choosing to be a performance art and should therefore not be included on sport’s biggest stage.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I shared this thought elsewhere, but this tweet from Two For the Ice sums up my feelings on the proposal: https://twitter.com/twofortheice/status/1165431402776662017

IMO, if this comes to pass, then skating should be thrown out of the Olympics. The Olympics are an athletic competition, a sporting event. You cannot count as sport something that has a wholly subjective segment. Changing the format to include an entirely artistic program would make skating not a sport anymore, but an art. The Olympics aren't an art competition.

If they wanted to stay in the games, then I guess the Olympic events could be competed solely on the athletic programs.

Unfortunately, I agree. Figure Skating is already the sport with the most subjective scoring. There were lots of considerations to kick out ice dancing as well already. The number of fans is the main reason the sport is still taken seriously. But by creating Technical program ISU would anger those who think FS is more of a jump fest rather than skating, while Artistic one would bw criticised for having too much subjectivity. And for some reason I believe that the most Artistic skater will be decided by federations' politicking power, not only by actual abilities.
 

labgoat

I have no words
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
Lakernik has mentioned in a new interview that the congress will propose next year that the Short Program and Free Skate will be replaced by a technical program and an artistic program. He says that the chances are high that the new proposal will pass next year
http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

Sounds like Dick Button will finally get his wish - this is the format his World Professional Championships in Landover were based on. I can still hear the announcer with the deep voice "ten, ten, ten..."
 

madraykin

Rinkside
Joined
May 31, 2018
I shared this thought elsewhere, but this tweet from Two For the Ice sums up my feelings on the proposal: https://twitter.com/twofortheice/status/1165431402776662017

IMO, if this comes to pass, then skating should be thrown out of the Olympics. The Olympics are an athletic competition, a sporting event. You cannot count as sport something that has a wholly subjective segment. Changing the format to include an entirely artistic program would make skating not a sport anymore, but an art. The Olympics aren't an art competition.

If they wanted to stay in the games, then I guess the Olympic events could be competed solely on the athletic programs.

Skating is at a crossroads here. It has to decide if it wants to remain a sport, which means we do not have program segments that are entirely subjective. If skating does go for an entirely subjective segment, then it’s choosing to be a performance art and should therefore not be included on sport’s biggest stage.

Artistic Swimming, a sport with a technical routine and a free routine is an Olympic sport.

It would depend entirely on the technicalities of how they implemented it IMO.

For example, the aforementioned Artistic Swimming has 5 required elements in the technical solo (duets and team have additional requirements around lifts/throws, acrobatics, patterns etc.). The elements are worth 40% of the score, then execution and 'impression' are worth 30% each.

The free routine is completely free, but this time artistic impression is worth 40%, difficulty is 30% and execution is 30%.

(More comprehensive scoring break down here: https://insidesynchro.org/scoring-system/)

So having a free program that emphasises the artistic side doesn't mean not considering the technical side at all.

ETA: I'm not actually keen on the proposal, but I don't think it would necessarily be the disaster some people in this thread think it would be!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
You guys are getting your tails in a twist for nothing. No one is threatening the prominence of jumps in competitive skating. In fact, we don't know what is being proposed. Right now there are two programs, one with three jumps allowed and one with seven.

The jumps are the biggest point-getters. This will not change (except that I would expect the 3-jump program to go up to 4). Nothing is in jeopardy. Nathan Chen will still win everything in sight by doing 6 or 7 quads in the two programs combined.
 

sk8kirsty

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
lakernik has mentioned in a new interview that the congress will propose next year that the short program and free skate will be replaced by a technical program and an artistic program. He says that the chances are high that the new proposal will pass next year
http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei
nooooooooo you can't change the short programme and free skate!!!! What are they thinking???? Short programme and free skate forever!!!!
 

Reddi

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
No it would look something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ipSYfIyqII
That's a nice example. Ah, Jason! He's smooth when there's barely any challenge. And what a stark contrast with his LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNBKA4si73U Suddenly, everything is not so pretty anymore. Edges aren't as deep, skating is much more laboured and smile isn't as omnipresent.

There's a perfectly good reason for jumps to be by far the most costly elements - they're the greatest challenge. And there's a logic in awarding skater with relatively bigger PCS for executing much harder programs, because being graceful and artistic while doing incredibly hard stuff is an entirely different story.

For many people figure skating always was a very dynamic and exciting sport with personal freedom in approaching one's athletic goals. Technical difficulty is the goal of figure skating (as a sport, obviously) and artistry is a means to an end. Athletic restrictions is an only saving grace of this sport, honestly.

First of all: figure skaters spend their whole lives training and thinking like athletes and it shows. Have you seen exhibition galas and skating shows where they have all the artistic freedom? UGH:dbana: This is where the king of skating "artistry" bares it all.

Athletic aspect also serves as a common denominator for athletes, judges and fans from all over the world. I see a constant back and forth bickering about everyone's "artistry" caused by cultural and personal stylistic preferences. Jason Brown's skating doesn't do jack to many, many Russians, just as Alina's to American people. Cultural dialogue is a very complex process and awarding medals on those shaky grounds will just lead to frustration of everyone involved.
 

Jetta

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Without seeing the actual proposed changes I can’t comment on whether or not it I think it will be beneficial to the sport.

However, I am thrilled that the ISU recognizes that there needs to be a change and that the current system is not working correctly.

Just as mentioned upthread, when school figures were a large percentage of your score, and skaters like Janet Lynn were not getting on the podium, it was clear a change needed to be made. Figure skating does not shy away from making changes. The old 6.0 system was a joke. When the wrong skaters are consistently getting on the podium and/or the sport is losing popularity, it makes sense to shake things up. The ISU obviously feels there is an imbalance and I agree. However, I would not want them to discourage skaters from pushing and advancing the sport.

Would I want gala-like performances with little or no jumping? Definitely not- that’s not sport.

Personally I feel if judges simply scored correctly and left personal and national bias at the door, then we would not be having this conversation.
 

NaVi

Medalist
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
This seems to be the direction the ISU wants to go... from a couple years ago:

https://twitter.com/LazyLys/status/1165543677269282817

Fleming, a longtime member of the Broadmoor Figure Skating Club, attended last year’s competition and one afternoon she and Tanger met with Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the International Skating Union (ISU) Single and Pairs Skating Committee. During that meeting, Bianchetti mentioned the ISU was considering changing the structure of competitions after the 2022 Winter Olympic Games. “He said that instead of having a short program or a short dance they would have an artistic program and a technical program,” Tanger said. “The programs would be of equal length, with each about three and a half minutes. As he was explaining this, Peggy and I looked at each other and said, ‘There it is.’

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/peggy-fleming-trophy-an-artistic-pursuit/

I would prefer they be a bit longer if they went this direction... especially if they are planning on giving out individual medals for each.
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Think it's just them trying to avoid actually reforming the greater issue:
- decreasing the factor of bias, whether it's music, skating order, country etc from the scoring system.

And whomever gave the Ashley Wagner Aurora Games clip from youtube...@4:35, love how the commentator said we'll have to wait later into the night to figure out how judges are leaning with their subjectivity. Well then, that sums up my concerns regarding these formats. At some point, we'll have to ask, if a skater skates to muse exogenesis part III, and has nothing but crossovers, hands choreography, and maybe a lone spread eagle, would that be considered artistic or not? Especially if another skater has a tango or latin music program and brings out counters, rockers, twizzles etc?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And whomever gave the Ashley Wagner Aurora Games clip from youtube...@4:35, love how the commentator said we'll have to wait later into the night to figure out how judges are leaning with their subjectivity.

I don't think that we can draw much of an inference from the Aurora Games. The "judging" for this entertainment special was strictly -- no rules, just whoever the judges liked the best. (I think the only rule was, no one gets less than a 7.0 no matter what.) When the judges had already given out "perfect" scores of 10, 10, 10, and then Alysa put on an even better show -- no problem, just give her a 10.5.

Of course they had to give Ashley 9's. She didn't come all that way and do promotional spots for the show, just to come away with a lousy 7!

But as for the ISU, I repeat that we are panicking for nothing. The "artistic program" -- whatever that means -- will still feature jumps as the highest-scoring elements. The "technical program" will still reward choreography and presentation, transitions and linking steps, etc. The more things change the more they stay the same. You could say that the current short program is already the "artistic program," since the jumping passes are limited to three.
 

annajzdf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
That's a nice example. Ah, Jason! He's smooth when there's barely any challenge. And what a stark contrast with his LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ipSYfIyqII Suddenly, everything is not so pretty anymore. Edges aren't as deep, skating is much more laboured and smile isn't as omnipresent.

There's a perfectly good reason for jumps to be by far the most costly elements - they're the greatest challenge. And there's a logic in awarding skater with relatively bigger PCS for executing much harder programs, because being graceful and artistic while doing incredibly hard stuff is an entirely different story.

[...]

Athletic aspect also serves as a common denominator for athletes, judges and fans from all over the world. I see a constant back and forth bickering about everyone's "artistry" caused by cultural and personal stylistic preferences. Jason Brown's skating doesn't do jack to many, many Russians, just as Alina's to American people. Cultural dialogue is a very complex process and awarding medals on those shaky grounds will just lead to frustration of everyone involved.

I totally agree. I’ve always regarded the performance aspect of figure skating as a sort of handicap to the execution of technical elements, especially the more difficult ones that are less consistent. And in that sense, I’ve never seen it as something separate from the athleticism in FS, but rather an integral part of it.
So the whole idea of separating the two or lowering the level of difficulty doesn’t make any sense to me.


I also think that it’s not only about the ability of doing the more risky elements, such as difficult jumps, during a performance.
People like to talk about the flexibility and/or control that one needs for a great spiral, spin position or good edgework and how these skills, despite also being athletic feats, aren’t favoured the same way as being able to rotate fast i.e. being a ‚jumping bean’.

But what about the stamina and especially the mental focus that one needs to get through a long program with little to no mistakes? When there’s so many elements that a skater has to get through, and especially when they’re opting for more risky ones? Why shouldn’t that be rewarded (the way it does currently)?

From what I see, many skaters can rotate stand-alone jumps in practice and some can also skate more or less clean run-throughs of their programs. But how many manage to do so in competition?
This is why I like the format of a short vs. a long program, because they test different qualities. So I’m not a fan of reducing the number of jumps in the long program to only 3-4 jumping passes or creating two programs of medium length with only 3-4 jumps.


And as several posters have already said, I have no idea how one would even go about judging ‚artistry‘ (hate the use of that word within the context of figure skating) in a reasonable and fair way.

Because not only is it totally subjective, even without taking cultural differences, personal taste or any type of bias into account. But there’s also so many different styles of music/themes/dances and ways that skaters can express themselves in. How would you even go about comparing skaters, it is already problematic the way it is now.
Most obvious example would be some emotionally ‚deep‘ ambitious theme, preferably to some classical music ;), compared to something more upbeat or slapsticky.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Oh, thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I am sure I heard about this idea quite a while ago already. Anyone know where it originates from? I have a vague recollection of maybe hearing Jeroen Prins mention it on Dutch Eurosport commentary, but...

At least as far back as a 2016 IceNetwork article (by Hersh, IIRC?), Lakernik had spoken about the idea of an artistic program and a technical program.

Posts in this old GS thread discuss Lakernik's idea:


The thread was started by SnowWhite on Aug 25, 2016.
The (now-defunct) link in the OP was to an IN article dated Aug 16.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But what about the stamina and especially the mental focus that one needs to get through a long program with little to no mistakes? When there’s so many elements that a skater has to get through, and especially when they’re opting for more risky ones? Why shouldn’t that be rewarded (the way it does currently)?

That is a good point, and I think that this is the first mention of this factor on this thread. :yes:
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
By the way, this is what a 2-minute "technical program" could aspire to, IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXCk1LDlC0&t=2m30s

Realistically speaking, if this type of model was the 2-minute technical program, skaters will still try to distinguish themselves by adding in artistry for a subjective bonus because at a given top tier of skaters, the skills will be similar. I personally believe jumps can be artistic. They were in this program. And I wouldn't trust the judges to not preference the technical program with an artistic flair more even though they probably have no mandated basis to do so given the theoretical purpose of this competition segment.
 
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