Flips in combo have to be done after a Euler, due to the inside edge takeoff.
What is the highest possible TES under current rules
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Flips in combo have to be done after a Euler, due to the inside edge takeoff.
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Thanks!
So max 121.45 according to https://skatingscores.com/bv/ ? Add spins and the bonus etc to make it this:
4Lz
4S
4F
4Lo
4T+1Eu+3Sx
3A+3Lox
4Lz+3Tx
FCCoSp4
StSq4
ChSq1
FSSp4
CCoSp4
152.09 not including PCS.
All from one program - wow.
Actually, they don't. Artur Dmitriev got a 3Lz-3F (without the euler) ratified at 2018 Nebelhorn trophy, in his SP, with overall positive GOE. If I remember correctly, he landed the Lz on opposite foot/edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2pJ8bBaM0I
Let us agree that this combo is unsightly and should not be considered.
What about things landed in practice?
4Lo
4S
4F
3A
4T-Eu-3F
4Lz-3lo
4Lz-3T
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Thinking about how to theoretically maximise BV, particularly in the SP, would it be physically possible to do a 3Lz+3Lz combination with the second Lz rotating in the opposite direction? I.e. 3Lz anticlockwise + 3Lz clockwise, with the exit edge of the first 3Lz forming the entry edge of the second? Or would that have to be a sequence rather than a combination? I'm having trouble visualising it clearly enough to be sure...
It's theoretically possible to put an opposite direction Lutz on the landing of another jump with no step, turn, hop, or edge change between, i.e., as a true combination. The first jump would not also need to be a lutz. However, under the current rules significant added difficulty would earn no added reward. There would need to be rule changes to reward reverse jumping commensurate with difficulty to make it worth skaters while to develop the skill.
If that does happen, a minority of skaters may find it easier to reverse direction than to add a third or fourth revolution.
If that does happen, a minority of skaters may find it easier to reverse direction than to add a third or fourth revolution.
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Individual quints in a free program are valid, though they would put the judging panel in an awkward position. 
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file#page=110 (page 110)
Landing on an incorrect edge affects the GOE, but not the type of the jump. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...7594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file#page=20 (page 20)
My take on it:
3A (8.00)
4T (9.50)
4S (9.70)
4Lo (10.50)
4Lz+3Lo x (18.04)
4Lz+3Lo x (18.04)
4F+3T+2Lo x (18.59)
Non-jumping elements: 17.10
Total base: 109.47
Place your bets, whether Nathan or Sasha first performs such a program.
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file#page=110 (page 110)Landing on an incorrect edge affects the GOE, but not the type of the jump. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...7594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file#page=20 (page 20)
My take on it:
3A (8.00)
4T (9.50)
4S (9.70)
4Lo (10.50)
4Lz+3Lo x (18.04)
4Lz+3Lo x (18.04)
4F+3T+2Lo x (18.59)
Non-jumping elements: 17.10
Total base: 109.47
Place your bets, whether Nathan or Sasha first performs such a program.
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I've tried my best to calculate one for Pairs (my favourite discipline!) using elements that have actually been performed in competition, and using the Pair Combination spin which was the required spin in the free in the 2018/19 season:
4Tw4 (8.4)
4STh (8.2)
3ATh (7.7)
Sbs 3Lz (6.0)
Sbs 3s-eu-3s (9.1)
ChSq (3.0)
Fo/BoDs4 (4.7)
PCoSp4 (4.5)
5ALi4 (7.0)
5BLi4 (6.5)
3Li4 (5.0)
Total 70.1
That would be one monster program if any pair could pull it off! I think Duhamel/Radford (4STh and sbs3Lz in the same program) have probably performed the program with the highest base-value TES to date, but I may be wrong!
4Tw4 (8.4)
4STh (8.2)
3ATh (7.7)
Sbs 3Lz (6.0)
Sbs 3s-eu-3s (9.1)
ChSq (3.0)
Fo/BoDs4 (4.7)
PCoSp4 (4.5)
5ALi4 (7.0)
5BLi4 (6.5)
3Li4 (5.0)
Total 70.1
That would be one monster program if any pair could pull it off! I think Duhamel/Radford (4STh and sbs3Lz in the same program) have probably performed the program with the highest base-value TES to date, but I may be wrong!
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I stand corrected!
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I can’t even begin to figure that out lol!
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I've had a go at Ice Dance (but I'm no great expert!) and I'm sure someone who has a much better grasp of Ice Dance protocols can do a better job than mine...
SyTwM4/SyTwL4 (3.42 is x2 for the lady and man so = 6.84)
OFStL4/OFStM4 (3.42 is x2 for the lady and man so =6.84)
ChLi1/ChSp1/ChTw1/ChSl1/ChSt1 (teams choose 3 out of a possible 5 of these character elements which are worth 1.10 each so x 3 = 3.30)
StaLi4/SlLi4/CuLi4/RoLi4 (teams choose 3 out of a possible 4 of these lifts which are worth 5.30 each so x3 = 15.90)
Sp4 (6.00)
DiSt4/MiSt4/CiSt4/SeSt4 (teams choose 1 out of a possible 4 of these step sequences which are worth 8.45)
Total = 47.33
An example with the elements set out like a program might look like (but probably not performed in this order!):
SyTwM4/SyTwL4 (6.84 total)
OFStL4/OFStM4 (6.84 total)
ChLi1 (1.10)
ChSp1 (1.10)
ChSl1 (1.10)
StaLi4 (5.30)
CuLi4 (5.30)
RoLi4 (5.30)
Sp4 (6.00)
SeSt4 (8.45)
Total = 47.33
One thing I'm very uncertain about is if teams receive a bonus for connecting elements together directly. For example, I know some dance teams link two of their lifts (eg: a straight line lift into a rotational lift) and I don't know if there's any bonus/extra points associated with doing that.
Yes, but an Euler (CCW) always lands on the left back inside edge and never left back outside. The mechanics of the jump don't really allow for a CCW-rotating jump to land a CW-traveling edge with flow to put even a single jump afterward much less double, triple, or quad.
If a skater did land an Euler on a LBO edge or flat and then stick the other toe in and take off, the panel would call that following jump as Fe or F! and not as Lz because the "correct" edge that the Euler should have landed on and the following jump taken off from would be a flip. If there was a mistake on the landing and subsequent takeoff, the call would be for what it should have been with a notation of a wrong-edge error.
If the skater landed correctly on a back inside edge and then rocked over to clear back outside, again, the call would be Fe if the skater was lucky. If they were unlucky, if the panel considered that the change of edge was intentional and the following jump intentionally a lutz, then they could consider that the definition of the jump combination has been invalidated, and it would not be a legal jump sequence under the current rules either, so they could award the final jump no points at all.
E.g., valid jump+1Eu+Lz* (with the appropriate number of revolutions in the invalidated lutz)
Or worse yet, valid jump+1Eu+Seq+Lz* with the valid first jump and Euler earning only 80% of their base values and the final lutz no points at all.
Basically, if you want to do a three-jump true combination with an Euler followed by a toe jump, the correct takeoff for the final toe jump is Flip, rotating in the same direction as the other jumps.
If you change edge and do a lutz (rotating in your normal direction in the air), you'd invalidate the combination and earn no points for the lutz.
If you want to do a lutz at the end of a true combination, you will need to do it from a normal back outside landing edge, no Euler involved, but the lutz would need to rotate in the opposite direction from the preceding jump.
Which jump is in the skater's "bad" rotational direction could vary. If extra points were available for changing direction, we'd probably see normal triple or quad something into reverse double lutz or reverse double axel or easier triple into normal triple lutz long before we'd see difficult triple or quad into reverse triple lutz.
And of course, if more points become available for reverse jumping or other kinds of added difficulty not currently rewarded, then there would be more potential ways to earn top base values that would be practically limited by each individual skater's physical talents. On paper, you could devise a set of jump elements that combined all the most difficult rare as well as obvious skills in ways that no single individual would be likely to master and execute in the same 4-minute program.
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Not bad. Jumps BV is 90.76
But BV is a bit higher with 3A-4T:
4lo
4S
4F
3F
3A-4T
4lz-3lo
4lz-3T
Bv=91.06
However max TES with your layout is 126.64 while with my layout it's 125.56.
So yeah your layout has the highest possible TES (for jumps).
Overall it's 152.99 TES
VS 151.91 TES with 3A-4T
Pretty big.
ETA: We see how spins and steps have little value in men. In ladies too (for those who have big jumps) but in men the gap is monstruous.
Even with a realistic layout.
https://skatingscores.com/bv/
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Dmitriev’s one-foot lutz as in his 3Lz+3F has the same rotational sense in the jump and the landing edge. He lands LBI instead of RBO; both edges travels counterclockwise. (Also importantly, the inside edge *is* the correct landing edge for a Lutz that takes off and lands on the same foot, so there is no GOE penalty.)Then I think Artur Dmitriev would do it.
If he landed RBI, that would be a mistake. Likewise if he did an Euler that landed LBO (since he’s a CCW skater), it would be a mistake, plus I think he might fall. And if he did an Euler that landed RBO, it would just be a loop.
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Thank you so much!
I feel like the only bonus you can get in Ice Dance is just a higher GOE. However I’m all for a bonus for putting the twizzles in the latter half of the program.Right, I completely forgot about that one. But you don't have a three jump combo:
4Lo
4S
4F
3Lz
3A-4T
4Lz-3Lo
4Lz-3T-3Lo
Bv=98.05
Oh yes i forgot the three jump combo. 98 BV, almost 100. Best layout? I wonder if there is a jumps BV which can break 100 with jumps landed in practice.
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