Most complete female skater during the IJS Era

LiamForeman said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Shizuka Arakawa. She had everything.

I suppose I can see how people would say Yuna Kim. I never felt the Kim love. An 'innate artist' does not need to rely on Charlie's Angels gun hands, sorry. Her jumps were big, but she had edge issues on her flip. Hardly a 3loop. Her spins were quite mediocre and she rarely hit a beautiful position in her spins. But okay. She's the most decorated in the IJS system, so good.

Alina Zagitova should be mentioned. She had insane tech for her 'time', best spins, artistry (which is so subjective).

In this new quad, I really am on board with Alena Kostornaia. If I had a daughter who skated, she's who I would want. I just wish she had a better LP. Then there is Kamila Valieva who's just started out. I also think Rika Kihira is a very complete skater, with jumps, spins, innate or well practiced artistry, the complete package.

Honorable mention also to Kaetlyn Osmond and Gracie Gold.

Click to expand...

YMMV. But Yuna being an artist was not reliant on one pose of one program in her career. And it was a fun program. I think her Danse Macabre is unbeatable up to this day in terms of wow factor of overall elements (jumps, spins, speed, skating, pc). No one ever did Danse Macabre as good as that IMO. Send in the clowns was beautiful.

And after the things you criticised her for, you brought up Alina. Who has a hunched over posture throughout her skating and also has Lutz edge problem.

:confused2:

I think that Aliona has already top level technical elements and components and that particularly her SS are outstanding (some professional commentators compare her to Yuzuru Hanyu and, in the ladies field, to Shizuka Arakawa).
I would like to ask those who disagree if they remember any other skater able to perform the triple Axel after the sequence of steps performed by Aliona (back inside rocker, forward inside counter, change of edge, triple Axel).
I am pretty sure Kihira and Tuktamysheva always perform the 3a after a long preparation (3-4 seconds) on the right back outside edge. I remember Mao doing the same.
You know why? Because you have to be a really outstanding skater to maintain the momentum and the speed performing those steps before the jump.

madmax said:

I think that Aliona has already top level technical elements and components and that particularly her SS are outstanding (some professional commentators compare her to Yuzuru Hanyu and, in the ladies field, to Shizuka Arakawa).
I would like to ask those who disagree if they remember any other skater able to perform the triple Axel after the sequence of steps performed by Aliona (back inside rocker, forward inside counter, change of edge, triple Axel).
I am pretty sure Kihira and Tuktamysheva always perform the 3a after a long preparation (3-4 seconds) on the right back outside edge. I remember Mao doing the same.
You know why? Because you have to be a really outstanding skater to maintain the momentum and the speed performing those steps before the jump.

Click to expand...

I don’t think anyone is arguing against Aliona, they just want to see more of her, her future development, more programs, etc before placing her on the list.

She’s my current favorite and I think she has the potential to be the most well rounded IJS skater, but she just moved up to seniors!

madmax said:

I would like to ask those who disagree if they remember any other skater able to perform the triple Axel after the sequence of steps performed by Aliona (back inside rocker, forward inside counter, change of edge, triple Axel).
I am pretty sure Kihira and Tuktamysheva always perform the 3a after a long preparation (3-4 seconds) on the right back outside edge. I remember Mao doing the same.
You know why? Because you have to be a really outstanding skater to maintain the momentum and the speed performing those steps before the jump.

Click to expand...

Alysa Liu does the same entry, and no one would say her SS are outstanding. Mao, in her early career, did double rockers into her 3A. (I’ve also definitely seen Rika do the same entry as Liu/Kosto in practice, but maybe not in competition.)

SkatingWithEdges said:

Unfortunately even she's great axel (double and triple) BUt big problem is she still flutz on her lutz (that fact not my personal ) and her spin or footwork nothing special in today standard , her speed is super fast but not faster than Yuna and Carolina in boths younger day , not compare transition beacause today standard miles ahead in the past standard., She great flow and extension but i don't like her knee (all of eteri students is lack soft knee bend)

She's big 3A and 2A but her other jumps look normal (not huge like her axel) and not the best technician like Yuna jumping technique (even Yuna lack 3Loop)

I watch her new WR short program in NHK few days ago i feel empty about her feel the music from deep inside because she moving a lot but i don't feel in her musicalty (she just move but not feel with the music)
Just my opinions (sorry about my english)

Click to expand...

Um Alyona has the biggest 3F and 3S as evidenced by the huge GOEs in her combos. Unanimous judging across the board cuz she soars high on those jumps and lands it a long distance away. Watch how the videos always highlight not just her 3A but also her 3F combos.

LiamForeman said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Shizuka Arakawa. She had everything.

Click to expand...

When Arakawa was on, she had everything. Best basic edge quality in the business, wonderful flexibility and control. However, she was a late bloomer and really had only a few outstanding skates in her career where she put everything together. (2004 Worlds was her best.)

Plus, I am not sure if she counts as being "in the IJS era." She retired after the 2006 Olympics and competed only a few times under that judging system.

I never felt the Kim love. An 'innate artist' does not need to rely on Charlie's Angels gun hands, sorry.

Click to expand...

Well, when your signature program is James Bond I think you can be forgiven.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1286/6264247/22532403/376102482.jpg

In general, though, the dilemma all skaters face -- what to do with those hands!

Here is a very young Michelle Kwan wishing skating costumes had pockets.

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/53/75/4636516/3/360x0.jpg

Complete to me means, the ability to compete and sustain a career in all facets of skating, during different stages of a competitive cycle as opposed to arriving on the senior circuit yesterday, and basing a career on jumps mainly and last weekend. Not to say new competitors when tested, can't make a future list but someday is not today. I would consider the following women as being complete all-round skaters.

1. Yuna
2. Mao
3. Caro
4. Kaetlyn
5. Gracie
6. Joannie
7. Shizuka
8. Liz
9. Wakaba
10. Zhenya

Osmond4gold said:

Complete to me means, the ability to compete and sustain a career in all facets of skating, during different stages of a competitive cycle as opposed to arriving on the senior circuit yesterday, and basing a career on jumps only and last weekend. Not to say new competitors when tested, can't make a future list but someday is not today. I would consider the following women as being complete all-round skaters.

1. Yuna
2. Mao
3. Caro
4. Kaetlyn
5. Gracie
6. Joannie
7. Shizuka
8. Liz
9. Wakaba
10. Zhenya

Click to expand...

Who is Liz?

drivingmissdaisy said:

Who is Liz?

Click to expand...

Manley, one of the best ever Lutz's in the business and a speedster! Ops, maybe not under IJS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=724KxD8qakA

jenm said:

YMMV. But Yuna being an artist was not reliant on one pose of one program in her career. And it was a fun program. I think her Danse Macabre is unbeatable up to this day in terms of wow factor of overall elements (jumps, spins, speed, skating, pc). No one ever did Danse Macabre as good as that IMO. Send in the clowns was beautiful.

And after the things you criticised her for, you brought up Alina. Who has a hunched over posture throughout her skating and also has Lutz edge problem.

:confused2:

Click to expand...

It is so hard to compare skaters of different eras. NOt to promote Zagitova but Yuna also didn't have 3 loop and only did 6 triples. I did love her though. So beautiful skating but it was a different time. and this question begs allsorts of answers. It doesn't say consistent, era considered. If you won an OGM no matter contoversy or not, weak year or not, you have to some game

cohen-esque said:

Alysa Liu does the same entry, and no one would say her SS are outstanding. Mao, in her early career, did double rockers into her 3A. (I’ve also definitely seen Rika do the same entry as Liu/Kosto in practice, but maybe not in competition.)

Click to expand...

I have a rule: to say only positive things about skaters.
Here I'll make a partial exception.
I confirm that you have to be an outstanding skater to perform the steps Kostornaia does before her triple Axel, in fact, Alysa enters in the 3A almost without speed, so her landing seems usually wobbly.
Mao. You're right but I am pretty sure that as she grew she could no longer maintain that entrance and was forced to simplify it.

LiamForeman said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Shizuka Arakawa. She had everything.

Click to expand...

I'm not. Shizuka is probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite skater ever, and I happen to hold the highly unpopular opinion that her Torino free skate is one of the greatest artistic achievements in figure skating history. That being said, I definitely wouldn't call her one of the most complete skaters by any measure. I mean, she was basically as "complete" as she would ever be in Torino and even then, she didn't have a triple-triple or a loop. She also peaked artistically in that one specific segment of that one specific competition. Shizuka finally brought it all together when it mattered the most, but she definitely did not have it together most of the time.

LiamForeman said:

I suppose I can see how people would say Yuna Kim. I never felt the Kim love. An 'innate artist' does not need to rely on Charlie's Angels gun hands, sorry. Her jumps were big, but she had edge issues on her flip. Hardly a 3loop. Her spins were quite mediocre and she rarely hit a beautiful position in her spins. But okay. She's the most decorated in the IJS system, so good.

Click to expand...

I don't think Yuna was an "innate artist," but I also don't believe you have to be an innate artist to be a great one. I don't care that her artistry is more a product of talented coaches/choreographers as long as the programs deliver. Which they do a lot. While I personally find Bond to be overrated and a bit generic compared to some of her other programs, it's kind of weird to knock her overall artistry for this one program (and like literally the last thing she does in the whole program), as if it totally erases the masterpieces she gave us in Danse Macabre and Gershwin. If we're going to nitpick specific edge issues as a component of "completeness," (which is kind of silly in the first place IMO) then it should be noted that Shizuka had the same problem with the flip, but unlike with Yuna, it was every single time. Yuna didn't have bad spins...spirals, perhaps, but spins? Were they really that bad? I find them to be fine...no breathtakingly beautiful positions, but serviceable. I'm not the biggest Yuna fan ever, but she does come closest to being the most complete female skater of this era. I believe Alena would surpass her easily if only she can last. And it's a big if considering how insane the competition amongst the Russian ladies has become. Alena is my only hope...the only reason I even want to watch skating at the moment, so I definitely hope her star doesn't burn out too soon.

Skater Boy said:

It is so hard to compare skaters of different eras. NOt to promote Zagitova but Yuna also didn't have 3 loop and only did 6 triples. I did love her though. So beautiful skating but it was a different time. and this question begs allsorts of answers. It doesn't say consistent, era considered. If you won an OGM no matter contoversy or not, weak year or not, you have to some game

Click to expand...

It was not a comparison between two OGMs but rather a comment on the obvious bias and unfair criticism on one while bringing up the other who has the same (if not worse) issues?
Both are great in different ways and different times IMO. At least use the same standards on all, otherwise, it's just eye-rolling.

I’d say my current list (with these skaters at their finest) would be:
1. Kim
2. Kostner
3. Asada
4. Arakawa
5. Osmond
6. Zagitova
7. Kostornaia
8. Medvedeva
9. Gold
10. Wagner

Osmond4gold said:

Manley, one of the best ever Lutz's in the business and a speedster! Ops, maybe not under IJS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=724KxD8qakA

Click to expand...

I love Liz, but I wasn't sure if you were talking about Liza or perhaps Elizabet initially

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I’d say my current list (with these skaters at their finest) would be:
1. Kim
2. Kostner
3. Asada
4. Arakawa
5. Osmond
6. Zagitova
7. Kostornaia
8. Medvedeva
9. Gold
10. Wagner

Click to expand...

i agree with your top ten choices if not in the same order but the very good skaters of three to four quads of IJS are in this list.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I love Liz, but I wasn't sure if you were talking about Liza or perhaps Elizabet initially

Click to expand...

I preferred Jill Trenary's skating personally or Karyn Cadavy from what I have seen but I think Liz deserved OGM in Calgary. witt should have been lower in the short program andor school figures.

There are lots of great skaters who can be called "the most complete female skater" but I will explain my favorite trio:
1. Evgenia Medvedeva (Zhenya was the first Russian lady two win World titles in a row. In my opinion she is the most complete female skater with her beautiful programs, poetry and fluidity in her skating, athletic abilities, sunshine personality and determination)
2. Anna Pogorilaya (Anna did not seem to have the complete package in her earlier years but she improved artistically and reached that level during 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 seasons. For me she was a complete female skater while she was skating to Modigliani Suite)
3. Julia Lipnitskaya (Athletism, flexibility, consistency, nerves of steel combined with difficult transitions and unique spins... Then there was an iconic program created for her. She left a mark in the hearts of many FS fans. That is a complete skater for me, if not the most complete. Julia was still a child in her successful senior debut season and Sochi olympic season. Many had worries about her surviving growth spurt back then. Although those folks were right in the end, but nothing will erase her success from the history of figure skating.)

Others: Alina Zagitova, Kaetlyn Osmond, Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Mao Asada, Akiko Suzuki, Laura Lepistö, Ashley Wagner, Adelina Sotnikova, Rika Kihira, Alyona Kostornaya

silveruskate said:

Mao can do everything but hardly ever did everything together in a FS without under-rotations. Has she even skated clean across two programs before in her career??

Click to expand...

2005 GPF--She had to be perfect to beat Irina.
2006 Japanese Nationals

Granted, this was before changes to the edge rules, but she delivered all the content that she was capable of without any URs.
I think one also has to consider that Mao was attempting very ambitious layouts for her time which were bound to be more difficult to deliver cleanly even if she didn't have those tech issues. I actually don't recall Carolina ever skating a clean long program with a 3-3. She wisely opted to not to go for that combo in her long program in Sochi.

SkateSkates said:

For me the holy trinity of Mao, Yuna and Carolina set the bar for complete skaters in the IJS era. All had different strengths/weaknesses of course, but were all “complete” in their own way.

Click to expand...

:thumbsup: