Most complete female skater during the IJS Era

medoroa · Oct 10, 2019

Fluture said:
PS: I‘d have a hard time believing Midori Ito was a complete skater but if you presented me with a good list of arguments, I might actually change my mind. It would definitely be interesting.

I'm actually surprised I've been asked to argue for this, because to me it's so self-evident! She had excellent jump technique (I'm not only talking of her 3A but her general takeoff technique and her ability to do 3T and 3Lo as second jumps), good spins (very centered and fast, good strong basic positions such as a low sit -- IJS level requirements have very little to do with basic quality), enormous speed (I've even seen it argued that she was bad at figures precisely because she had too much speed and figures need to be done at a steady, slow pace), fantastic projection that the audience and media alike responded passionately to even before she started doing 3A in competition. I'm more confused as why she wouldn't be considered a good, well-rounded skater. Her only flaws were buckling under Olympic pressure and not being "traditionally pretty and elegant" (irrelevant to judging someone as a skater).

macy · Oct 10, 2019

i think Rika has the potential to be in this category someday, but there is something about her that just doesn't do it for me quite yet. she doesn't have the expression or interpretation that can reach the people with the worst seats in the arena, which is what Yuna and Mao had. i think that is something that comes with maturity and longevity more than anything, and she'll get there.

edit- i also want to add Haein Lee has great potential for this as well. her artistry needs a bit more development, but her SS, jumps, and spins are of very high quality already. she has some major star power waiting to burst.

Fluture · Oct 10, 2019

medoroa said:
I'm actually surprised I've been asked to argue for this, because to me it's so self-evident! She had excellent jump technique (I'm not only talking of her 3A but her general takeoff technique and her ability to do 3T and 3Lo as second jumps), good spins (very centered and fast, good strong basic positions such as a low sit -- IJS level requirements have very little to do with basic quality), enormous speed (I've even seen it argued that she was bad at figures precisely because she had too much speed and figures need to be done at a steady, slow pace), fantastic projection that the audience and media alike responded passionately to even before she started doing 3A in competition. I'm more confused as why she wouldn't be considered a good, well-rounded skater. Her only flaws were buckling under Olympic pressure and not being "traditionally pretty and elegant" (irrelevant to judging someone as a skater).

Thanks. That was definitely an interesting read. I have to admit, I wasn‘t around during Midori‘s era of skating and I‘m not altogether knowledgeable about her. From what I remember watching her videos, she has insane jumping ability and yes, speed, but didn‘t strike me as too much of an engaging or artistic performer. But then, I’m a more recent fan and yes, speaking exaggeratedly, I guess I do prefer the ”traditionally elegant“ skating. I do like skaters with a very powerful style, too but they have to have something that draws me in. For me, from the videos of Midori I‘ve seen, she just never had that, so when I think of her, I think of the insane jumps and litle else. It has been a while since I‘ve watched her, though, so maybe that would change if I watch her again with your comment in mind.

Still, that thread is about the IJS and as far as I know Midori has never really competed under it. Maybe she could be considered for an “all time most complete“ skater, which would be an interesting concept but imo, really, really hard to determine.

readernick · Oct 10, 2019

macy said:
i think Rika has the potential to be in this category someday, but there is something about her that just doesn't do it for me quite yet. she doesn't have the expression or interpretation that can reach the people with the worst seats in the arena, which is what Yuna and Mao had. i think that is something that comes with maturity and longevity more than anything, and she'll get there.

Yes, you are right. Mao and Yuna when they were older had the ability to convey emotion. Yuna was 19 when she won her Olympic Gold. I was never personally touched by her interpretation but it was undeniably better in 2013 than 2007. Mao was not much of an artist prior to Vancouver. By 2014, her skating brought me to tears. Carolina was just a jumping bean when she was younger, but again her skating touched me so much after 2011-2012. Rika has just turned 17. I think she has a lot of growing to do. What I love about her is that she grows each year and often from competition to competition. This year the freeskate improved so much between ACI and Japan Open. I feel that her short and long will also improve by Skate Canada and might be stunning (especially the short) by the end of the year. She is constantly evolving.

theharleyquinn · Oct 10, 2019

macy said:
i think Rika has the potential to be in this category someday, but there is something about her that just doesn't do it for me quite yet. she doesn't have the expression or interpretation that can reach the people with the worst seats in the arena, which is what Yuna and Mao had. i think that is something that comes with maturity and longevity more than anything, and she'll get there.

edit- i also want to add Haein Lee has great potential for this as well. her artistry needs a bit more development, but her SS, jumps, and spins are of very high quality already. she has some major star power waiting to burst.

Mao and Yuna were also versatile in the types of performances and interpretations they could do across programs. That's why I say let Rika get more seasons/programs under her belt.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2019

macy said:
totally agree. i will add Alena Kostornaia when she has been a senior for a bit

Hah, well she and Rika definitely have the potential. Hoping Alena can get her 3A out there soon.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2019

readernick said:
I was going to choose Mao Asada because of her artistry. (she always seemed like the ultimate dancer on ice to me) but decided against it because of her technical issues with URs, the 3Lz and the 3T. It is interesting that you had the completely opposite reason for not choosing her.

Anyway, I don't really know who the "most complete" skater is.. I think that I have to agree that Rika Kihira is a skater that is getting there.... she has the technique and the basics . She has no real weakness, as mentioned, ( except perhaps a lack of confidence in herself sometimes). She listens to the music and hits the notes. But, she needs to express emotion with her face more. If she stays healthy and continues to grow she might be a good choice for the most complete skater in a few years.

Aliona K. is beauty itself on the ice but she has a few more technical issues and less difficulty. (at this point) Her SS and spins are beautiful but the technique is a little less sound.

I see a lot of promise in Ksenia S. but she also needs more time to grow and prove herself.

Asada was a close second for me. I'll admit, I wasn't always a fan of her artistry, but she definitely improved that as the years went by (some of her footwork sequences are ICONIC). I didn't necessarily find her the most graceful, but from a program standpoint she was more versatile. While she had the 3A (and landed MANY), I think Kim's overall triples were typically more solid, and she struck a better balance of technical meets artistry, whereas Asada weighed mostly towards the technical (save for some of her later programs).

Tolstoj · Oct 10, 2019

Probably Mao Asada, apart from the lutz edge issue and some underrotations sometimes.

Performance, spins, jumps if you consider she had the 3a and unusual difficult combinations like flip-loop, skating skills were marvelous, and besides the flaws she had that extra something special: Steps sequences to die for, unique spin positions, great choreo sequences, unique programs too,...

Other possible candidates:

- Carolina Kostner - i'd have put her above Mao if she had better spins, because the rest is perfection.

- Rika Kihira - she is good at everything, there is no mistake on anything she does so you could argue she should be the most complete skater, but at the same time unlike Mao to me nothing really stands out. Spins, jumps, programs,... it's all good but not as special for me.

- Yulia Lipnitskaya - very close, though again the lutz edge was often an issue (sometimes flip edge too which is super weird).

- Yuna Kim - great skater, very elegant on the ice, she never looked in a rush, spins were a bit of a weakness: kinda slow and not very original besides one variation of the flying camel, issues with the 3lo also.

- Evgenia Medvedeva in her best days - again good skater, but issues on the lutz edge and nothing that was truly The best.

Mishaminion · Oct 10, 2019

If Alena Kostornaia nails her 3As and keeps doing so, she's a contender, definitely.

I'd pick Mao Asada at the moment, with Carolina Kostner and Yuna Kim just behind her.

veeladfigureskater · Oct 10, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Hah, well she and Rika definitely have the potential. Hoping Alena can get her 3A out there soon.

Alena's 3A is here! She did it beautifully during Finlandia Trophy practice and I am eager to see it in competition.

andromache · Oct 10, 2019

Medvedeva, Zagitova, and Kim, with Asada and Kostner on a tier below (Mao had a lot of jump issues, Kostner had major consistency issues)

Maybe Alena Kostornaia this season. (I don't think Trusova or Shcherbakova or Kihira will be there yet this season, but they have the strong potential to in the seasons to come.)

randomfan · Oct 10, 2019

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned Wakaba Higuchi yet. She has powerful jumps, wonderful artistry (big contrast to her junior years), and amazing step sequences. Her spins mainly need work, but the speed she gets on them is still very impressive. I’d say her spins are about on par with Rika Kihira, who many people have noted already.

Other than Wakaba and Rika, my list would consist of Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, and Kaetlyn Osmond, just like most of the other commenters.

I really want to put Alena Kostornaia on here too because of how close she is to being the full package. The only reason I won’t yet is because I want to see better projection from her. Despite being hands down one of the most artistic skaters in the current field, there are still times when she rushes her choreo (I admit she somehow still makes the rushing look pretty) or goes through the movements. I used to think the same of Rika, but by the end of last season she really improved in this regard. And I believe that Alena can develop this as she keeps maturing.

Mirunna · Oct 11, 2019

Mao, Yuna and Carolina - three exquisite skaters who literally dominated the world podium between 2007-2014 (with the exception of 2012, at least two of three were on the worlds podium). Honorable mention to Miki Ando who also obtained 2 world titles during that period. They also dominated the Olympics during that time (again, two of them placed on the podium in 2010 and 2014).

For me, Mao, Yuna and Caro are the golden standard in terms of overall package. I chose them also because of their longevity and overall careers. I still re-watch many of their programs. While the current skaters up'ed the game from a technical perspective, the consequence is that the skaters do not get the time to improve as the years go by, because they are passed by their younger and more technical compatriots. From this perspective, the sport loses something valuable, in my opinion. Just watch the 2014 world's SP. A mature Mao and Carolina, at their absolute best. We are not seeing anything remotely similar nowadays.

SXTN · Oct 11, 2019

Mao, Carolina, Yuna - the "mothers"

and Evgenia, Alina, Alena - the "babies"

EyesOfLove · Oct 11, 2019

Though I wouldn't necessarily say the word "complete," Yuna Kim comes closest to being the most 'well-rounded' skater in terms of a number of qualities generally regarded as requisite for a great skater: athleticism, artistry, consistency, influence on the sport, etc. It would be another story, though, should Alena Kostornia with her 3A live up to her potential and dominate over an extended period of time at senior stages.

macy · Oct 11, 2019

randomfan said:
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned Wakaba Higuchi yet. She has powerful jumps, wonderful artistry (big contrast to her junior years), and amazing step sequences. Her spins mainly need work, but the speed she gets on them is still very impressive. I’d say her spins are about on par with Rika Kihira, who many people have noted already.

I would totally have Wakaba on my list if she was skating better than she has been (yes i know she has unfortunately been injured and sick the last couple seasons). her Skyfall program is one of the best of the IJS era in my book. She really does have it all- good skating skills, presentation/interpretation, floaty jumps, a 3A in practice, good spins. If she can put it together again and keep it together, absolutely. She also has the potential to compete with the top Russians when clean.

gotoschool · Oct 11, 2019

Mao Asada because of her combination of beautiful ballerina positions in spins and spirals with sharp arcing edges, the most triple Axel's landed through her and earlier eras, no extra stroking with a blade on the entrance to her unusual triple flip and loop, lovely extension and beautiful air position on jumps, superior step sequences,skating skills and rink coverage with great control deep into every corner of the rink, and transcendent artistry with erect posture, as well as being so successful despite obvious and persistent underscoring under the given criteria which was often adjusted and assessed to her disadvantage.

In her best performances, for me Rika Kihira would be closest to Mao: wonderful skating skills and artistry, erect posture, multiple triple axels, fine I spin and Biellmann, no extra stroking to guide and stabilize combo jumps, but she hasn't been skating that long and her step sequences and artistry are not yet as impressive Mao's, but she is still young. While Rika's lutz edge is better than Mao's, Mao had less pre-rotation on her jumps overall and more consistency in height.

Ophelia · Oct 11, 2019

Anni234 said:
If you want to nitpick, each of the great skaters has something that could "rule her out". Being the most "complete" is always subjective. Some are willing to overlook a missing jump, some a recurring wrong edge jump, some the inconsistency. I don't have one name myself, but I agree with most that has been said in here - Yuna, Mao, Evgenia, Alina, Carolina, Kaitlyn etc. All very different, yet all very "complete" to me.

It goes without saying that no skater is perfect. We are talking about who the most well-rounded skater is. Medvedeva is out for me because her weakness is somewhat of a "fatal flaw" that really dings her competitive ability and makes her lose major points.

I consider "complete packages" to be someone who is very strong across the board, and while they might not be the best at a particular skill, their "weak area" isn't so weak that it's losing them significant points. You can say Kim wasn't the most flexible skater and she doesn't have Lipniskaia's spins, but her spins are still very good and getting her the points. Her "weak" areas are not consistently preventing her from winning against her competitors.

Based on that I'm ruling out Medvedeva, Asada, and Kostner.

Ballade88 · Oct 13, 2019

The three standouts from the IJS era so far are Yuna, Mao, and Carolina. It is too soon to say for any of the current skaters. I think you can make a case for any one of those three skaters based on your definition of a 'complete' skater.

If it means fulfilling most of the criteria of the IJS judging system and consistency of results, then Yuna is the obvious choice. However, if it means who is closest to your definition of an ideal skater, then it gets more subjective. Carolina doesn't have the consistency but she has arguably the best skating skills and a full set of jumps. Also, post-Vancouver, I would say she was most consistent in bringing the performance quality. Mao was arguably the best at the non-jump elements. I also think she isn't given enough credit for technical innovation. In her prime, she was attempting technical content that was a decade ahead of the field (3A and two 3-3 combos in 2007).

When I think of a complete skater, the first name that comes to my mind is Michelle Kwan. I think no one achieved a more perfect balance of technique and artistry. She is the epitome of beautiful skating. Out of the three IJS skaters, Mao remains my favorite because she is closest to the type of ideal skating that Michelle embodied.

eppen · Oct 13, 2019

This is probably a question that can be answered properly only after the IJS has been turned into something else. At the mo, I probably would put Yuna in the top spot, but am not sure how long I can keep her there.

And that's because I just saw Alena Kostornaia skate live for the first time and I must say, I have never seen anyone like her ever before. I am still a bit at a loss for words to describe her skating, but she certainly has everything that a complete skater needs... There was a certain otherworldliness to what she did: the speed, the flow, the height of her jumps, the finish of all her movements and espacially today a glimpse of her ability to perform different things. She is still young, but I believe she can develop into one of the truly greats.

E

Most complete female skater during the IJS Era

medoroa

macy

Fluture

readernick

theharleyquinn

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

Tolstoj

Mishaminion

veeladfigureskater

andromache

randomfan

Mirunna

SXTN

EyesOfLove

macy

gotoschool

Ophelia

Ballade88

eppen

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