2019 Skate America: Day 2 - Thoughts and Highlights | Page 7 | Golden Skate

2019 Skate America: Day 2 - Thoughts and Highlights

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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I'm the opposite. I like the jumps, it makes it a true sport and not just a beauty pageant as Figure Skating's detractors like toclaim it is.
Not everyone gets what they want, we all have different opinions.
Maybe this tech/art split idea is actually the only way of settling this, because despite jumps being a part of figure skating the whole time suddenly people won't stop whining about them.

What about men, should they stop jumping too? Pairs?

I didn’t say “stop jumping,” or at least I surely didn’t mean to. I meant whether or not one has a quad should not be the sole determining factor of whether they win/medal.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Funny how someone only wants to stop watching ladies because they are now landing quads but has no problem with the men doing it 4 times or more in their programs. They are talking as if Anna is incapable of artistry. She was miles above her competition and her quads were just an addition to an already impressive arsenal of jumps. Quads or not she'd have won this tournament. Why continue with the disinformation when it falls flat on the face as soon as it's uttered?

Like I said apparently I was watching something else. What I saw was a skater skating like a junior (with quads.). And I’ve never been a huge fan of how many quads one has determining medal placement for the men, either. If I haven’t complained about it here I apologize. I’ve complained about it lots elsewhere.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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I think Bradie would have won. She put down 2 complete, mature, athletic and artistic programs, clean except for one jump.

Apparently I was watching something different than everyone else. In my opinion Anna skated from jump to jump, with a couple spins because they’re required. There was just no there there for me. And Bradie not only isn’t my favorite skater, she’s not even my favorite US lady.

Thank you for replying in good faith. Increasingly, some people view an honest question as an attack.

I, too, thought Bradie skated great programs.

But I was also surprised that I found a lot to enjoy about Anna's programs that I didn't expect that I would. I was expecting a junior jumping bean with no other merit, and that's not what I felt when I watched. I had never seen Anna before - I don't watch junior programs unless a good cyber-friend here on GS tells me it's worth watching, and she had not recommended this skater. (It's El Henry, if anybody cares).

I don't think you're crazy for favoring Bradie in this competition. I didn't, at least on first view, and the only program I have rewatched is Bradie's SP, which was enlightening to me... I think it showed tremendous growth and potential.
 

Baron Vladimir

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Dec 18, 2014
Leg kicking seems to be new "it" thing in team Eteri.

So even if I see they are all talented... I hope few years from now the entire GPF is not team Eteri ladies doing the same thing. Of course leg kicking will be passe by then... it will be something new, but equally riddiculous.

unless ISU starts deducing PCS for transitions for sake of transitions. Whatever happened to it being a meaningful connection as opposed to "Killing invisible allien enemy with my blade"?

That sound stuppid. How is hand movement or head movement more meaningfull than leg movement to you? After all, leg kicking involved moving of the whole body, not just one part of it, and just because of that can be more meaningfull as a transitional element - to connect requred elements in one skating pattern. It also demonstrates skaters balance, flexibility and is filling the space around the skater much better than movements which are not involving legs. And, it accents the music as well. The only problem i see with it can be if it is used too common in ones skating.
 

Mishaminion

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Feb 12, 2014
I didn’t say “stop jumping,” or at least I surely didn’t mean to. I meant whether or not one has a quad should not be the sole determining factor of whether they win/medal.

Why not?
If you are able to land the most difficult jumps, why should you not be well rewarded for it?
It is a straw man argument anyway as neither Trusova or Shcherbakova have won solely on the merit of their quads anyway, so it is a mute point. They've had to be above average with the rest too, other jumps, spins, steps and performance.
Zagitova scored only 6 points less than a 4 quad Trusova at JO without any, so the difference between having them or not isn't even that high if you have huge PCS like she does.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
That's fair. But if you took away those quads, who do you think would have won? For the sake of argument, substitute in triples for the quads.

I think Bradie would have won. She put down 2 complete, mature, athletic and artistic programs, clean except for one jump.

I agree. In this competition, Bradie truly became a complete skater, IMO. Or at least was able to show it for the first time. And I've been a Bradie skeptic from her first appearances. She still might not make my (quite long) absolute faves list, but I really admire any skater who improves bit by bit and quality by quality, to become the skater she (or he, or they) is/are meant to be.

Apparently I was watching something different than everyone else.

I mean, that's what de gustibus means, isn't it? We all watch figure skating through the lens of the qualities we value.

For instance, I value the emotional experiences that skaters can give me above everything. That doesn't mean I don't love jumps (even some people's quads:love:!) and spins (and in Jason's case, huge split jumps) ... because they can thrill me too. Ditto for Ashley and Tim's compelling unison and beautiful matching lines, which give me an experience of their symmetry and synergy, of what's possible when two skate as one.

There's subjectivity in every aspect of figure skating. Even in evaluating URs and edges. That's why we have multiple judges .... multiple points of view.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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I had never seen Anna before - I don't watch junior programs unless a good cyber-friend here on GS tells me it's worth watching, and she had not recommended this skater. (It's El Henry, if anybody cares).
.

But @El Henry has stated many, many times that she doesn't follow Ladies division. :) Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing, I can barely manage to follow all the seniors I want to.:drama: My favorites are skaters from pairs, ladies, men and dance who make me feel something through their skating.

But I also love to watch entire competitions, because I get to see so many different skating styles, different sets of skills, different interpretive approaches, and individual artistry. IMO, artistry isn't just one thing. I can love Nathan's artistry and Jason's, Evgenia's and Alena K's.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I believe my friend @TontoK knows that I do not follow ladies as much, and junior ladies hardly at all. I do love my junior men, and now one junior ice dance team. But they didn't skate here. :biggrin:

It is in fact the first time I saw Anna S. skate myself. Impressed by her determination, speed and technique. Not crazy about her choreo.

And with one viewing, that's all I really can say :)
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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But @El Henry has stated many, many times that she doesn't follow Ladies division. :) Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing, I can barely manage to follow all the seniors I want to.:drama: My favorites are skaters from pairs, ladies, men and dance who make me feel something through their skating.

B

El has never led me astray in terms of junior performances worth watching. If I'm going to look at a junior program, it better have some really out-of-the-ordinary merit. She recommends few, but I've found them all enjoyable.

If El ever decides to follow junior ladies, she'll clue me to the ones I'll enjoy. I do admit that I watched the young American AL (I won't attempt to spell her name) without El's stamp of approval. I wanted to see the 4Z she did.

If you've got junior ladies that are worth my time, I don't mind if you recommend a few. If that number is more than 3, you're not being picky enough LOL.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I am going to throw this out here, it's a new Vlog

Retired Canadian skaters Dylan Moscovitch (Pairs) and Asher Hill (Dance) review Skate America

H/T to Cathlen in the Orford & Hill FF for the link. It is very short, about 12 minutes.

Warning: It is deliberately silly. Very silly. Although I think their reviews are sincere, it is meant to be light hearted, and if that will bother you, don't watch. I enjoyed it and thought it was funny. Of course, I adored Orford/Hill during their one season of competition too;)
 

rain

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Jul 29, 2003
What you said, but also the song is a farcical Broadway tune for an over-the-top, campy character, Dolly Winslow. In context, I don't see it as celebrating "sugar daddyism" anymore than Sweeney Todd advocates for cannibalism. :) Taking things out context distorts them.

And that's really the whole problem I have with it. The song comes out of nowhere with no real context, because a rhythm dance in figure skating really, by definition, can't give it those things. I know it's of a different time and in the context of a musical and storyline that we're not really privy to, but just the song and lyrics as-is made me wince. Just a gut reaction.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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And that's really the whole problem I have with it. The song comes out of nowhere with no real context, because a rhythm dance in figure skating really, by definition, can't give it those things. I know it's of a different time and in the context of a musical and storyline that we're not really privy to, but just the song and lyrics as-is made me wince. Just a gut reaction.

I've been a big Hubbell and Donohue supporter for years. But after taking a few days to reflect after this competition, I think I enjoyed their programs when they were clawing themselves to the top of US Ice Dance rather than the programs after they arrived.

I think I'm more in love with Chock and Bates these days. And I'd honestly lost interest in them a couple of years ago.

I still think Ponomarenko and Carreira are the Next Big Thing in US Ice Dance. But not quite there yet.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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El has never led me astray in terms of junior performances worth watching. If I'm going to look at a junior program, it better have some really out-of-the-ordinary merit. She recommends few, but I've found them all enjoyable.

If El ever decides to follow junior ladies, she'll clue me to the ones I'll enjoy. I do admit that I watched the young American AL (I won't attempt to spell her name) without El's stamp of approval. I wanted to see the 4Z she did.

If you've got junior ladies that are worth my time, I don't mind if you recommend a few. If that number is more than 3, you're not being picky enough LOL.

Well, I feel honored. :):):) Other than AL, I only have 2: Isabelle Inthisone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5qkSKGb5o; and Kate Wang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMV8r-Ctl8A.

:eek:topic::ddevil:
 

rain

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Jul 29, 2003
I've been a big Hubbell and Donohue supporter for years. But after taking a few days to reflect after this competition, I think I enjoyed their programs when they were clawing themselves to the top of US Ice Dance rather than the programs after they arrived.

I think I'm more in love with Chock and Bates these days. And I'd honestly lost interest in them a couple of years ago.

I still think Ponomarenko and Carreira are the Next Big Thing in US Ice Dance. But not quite there yet.

I haven't given up on Hubbell and Donohue, but this is two years in a row I haven't loved their material. Though I'm still not sure about the FD — I think it could still go somewhere. But it's definitely not a home run. Unfortunately I was totally bored by both Russian teams' FD's as well. My favourite so far is likely Chock/Bates as well. And FB/S — I like this FD more each time I see it. I find myself able to ignore Bublé, and that's saying something. Also love Smart/Diaz.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
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Nov 19, 2017
Apparently Russians never UR...

No, it's not like that - of course they do. I would say it other way: "Apparently nonRussians are never UR - unless it's a fall or step out". At least it's what judges lead us to believe in.

Completely true! Most people don't like seeing others get bullied. And that is how I would define this behavior. It is bullying.
It is not?
I have nothing against Bradie at all. And I don't understand how talking about possible URs can lead to that conclusion. Else poor Medvedeva was victim of many-years bullying by the whole forum when it discussed her flutz. Noone was concerned whether it was appropriate or not then - from ethical point of view. And now for Bradie it's suddenly a concern? :rolleye:
If you can call me a bully - it is only towards Tech Panel bias. I always bullied, am bullying and will do so in the future - corrupt judges (of course I don't care about misjudging towards skaters who I am not a fan of - which happens too. But isn't it natural? People are choosing to spend their time on things that they consider interesting and important for them). Any skater I will always respect - despite even what they say or do. Because there are lots of work behind what they show on the ice - and noone here can't do even tiny bit of it in million years. Still, discussing personal merits of a skaters is one thing, - discussing pure technical matters such as calls - which should be as nonpersonal as it can get by its nature - is a wholly another thing. Trying to connect both as something one - is a rather cheap trick to lead an argument.

It sounds ridiculous because it is. Which is why your posts are so funny. You are going on every thread to push this ridiculous theory. The TP reviewed jumps with. ugly landings. Anna and Liza had some sketchy landings, their jumps were reviewed and they were under. So, they got called... simple. I do agree that Bradie's lutz is ! but so is Anna's and most other ladies skaters ( exceptions being Liza, Rika and a few lower ranked skaters like Karen Chen)and very few ladies ever get a !. So, this call is not surprising. The rest of your video just shows your ability to stop right before a skaters blade hits the ice to give the impression there was an UR when one really did not exist. Please move on from this particular conspiracy. I am sure you will find another one next week. ( you have had a conspiracy post for almost every competition this season... have fun!)

But they weren't ugly and sketchy! I wouldn't even noticed such landings until they were marked as UR. How exactly is this sketchy or URed https://youtu.be/X3Fs_06zT6k?t=137 ? That's the thing - they were no more sketchy that plenty of landings of other skaters there - but in their case it wasn't enough to invite TP attention as they deemed them as common enough. But suddenly it wasn't the case for Russians. Double standarts? Definitely.
Moreover, majority of other skaters were given calls only when it wasn't possible to ignore - when UR leaded to a fall or step out. If the jump was landed somehow without such rude errors (just like it was in case of Russians in that couple of URs) - it always becomes ok landings to just not review them. Again, I am thinking this up - you will say? Let us just analyze protocols.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/s...------QUAL000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf
In SP the only nonRussians skaters who were called URed - from 12-3=9 skaters - were only Glenn, Yamashita and Leung. As you can easily notice - skaters who are either weak/without reputation or did glaringly awful landing.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/s...------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf
In a free there were much more calls though - due to natural reason. Because there were much more falls/step-outs, which was hard to ignore since the exactly reason for a fall/step-out was UR. Still, it looks like to avoid a call - all a non Russian skater is needed is staying on their foots. And you can had as many "sketchy" landings as Russians - they weren't going to be reviewed anyway unless it something much worse than that.
For example, it was very obvious for me that Sakamoto along with Bradie was lead to a podium by judges - and only long set of her mistakes which was impossible to ignore (popping a jump is this type of error which judges can't do anything about - which can't be said about UR though) hindered this intention. So, you can't even say that it was proAmerican TP - the task for TP was to not let Russians on the podium at all - whether by an American skater of Japanese - wasn't that important (American was still more preferable to be a first - so they dinged her with an "e" in the beginning of a program as an insurance). Still, what is amusing that not all judges were this biased - you can say that TP was against judges panel there. For example it was very telling that on Anna's 3Lz+3Lo bogus call in a free majority of judges responded with a still positive GOEs - and you can't exactly say that the combo was this good too. They just saw that call was undeserved. It makes me happy to realize that something fair still remains in that rotten world :)
As for Bradie URs - we can't prove to each other anything at that stage. You can even say that Bradie jumps quads there - and I can't do anything about it :confused2: Someone of us see what they want to see. As I already said - it requires presence of a neutral third party, preferable with tech specialist expertise - to put an end to this argument.
 
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