Were Tuktamysheva's 3Lz and Scherbakova's 3Lz+3Lo truly URed at SA? | Golden Skate

Were Tuktamysheva's 3Lz and Scherbakova's 3Lz+3Lo truly URed at SA?

Elucidus

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
I believe that Tech Panel (not a Judges Panel!) work at Skate America was biased and unfair towards those two. However, noone wants to believe me and each time I try to complain - it's met with hostility. So, I decided to refrain from further accusations (if voting results/comments will show that I was wrong) and just ask pure technical question. I think that their jumps not only were called incorrectly - their landings shouldn't even warrant a review. Maybe I just have too much love for them and see what I want? See for yourself:
Judges protocols where these jumps were marked as UR you can see here: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/gpusa2019/

Liza's 3Lz from SP (original video): https://youtu.be/0LLn2ERr11M?t=305
Liza's 3Lz from SP (video from other angle): https://youtu.be/-cypCFUXojI?t=88

Anna's 3Lz+3Lo from FP (original video): https://youtu.be/uGCgJlDbZ4M?t=169
Anna's 3Lz+3Lo from FP (video from other angle): https://youtu.be/X3Fs_06zT6k?t=139

I recommend to see the above videos in 0.25 slo-mo and consider both angles before making a decision. I'll try to add a poll if it's allowed here later.

P.S.: added Liza's 3Lo as well - as it got the bogus call too
https://youtu.be/tXGh7RjjFYQ?t=221
 
Last edited:
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drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I would say both were close and roughly right at 1/4 turn short. In Anna's case, loop combos are usually flagged for review so it might not have been looked at had she done a 3T there. In Liza's case, the landing was clean but a little shaky and I think that's what triggered a review. Once looked at in slow motion, the lutz was definitely not fully rotated. We also see a lot of jumps like those given full credit, probably because the landings are more confident and aren't suspected of being short even though they're close.
 
Elucidus

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
It seems I don't have rights to make a poll. Sorry about that. Maybe mods will add it later? I had those options in mind:

1) Liza's jump was clean, Anna's was URed
2) Anna's jump was clean, Liza's was URed
3) both jumps were URed
4) both jumps were clean
5) I don't know
6) Serves them right! Russians are always overscored anyway
 
M

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
5) I don't know
Different people see different things/have a different opinion. The Loop it seems is a UR magnet in general and often more closely scrutinised as a result.

Both landings were not good and that's my only observation
 
L

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Upon second review, all three jumps look under to me. However, I can't look at one of the links as it's been blocked here.

It would be important to clearly discern when each skater's skate landed on the ice. Has ISU defined that clearly? Do they consider it as soon as the toepick touches the ice? If so, these jumps are certainly UR. (including the loop)
 
Mathman

Mathman

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
lzxnl said:
It would be important to clearly discern when each skater's skate landed on the ice. Has ISU defined that clearly? Do they consider it as soon as the toepick touches the ice? If so, these jumps are certainly UR. (including the loop)
Click to expand...

I believe that there was a recent ISU communication that stated, yes, it is the moment the toe-pick touches the ice. (The alternative would be, when is a substantial part of the skater's weight born by the blade? This seems not to be the case in the intention of the ISU).

Neither criteria is easy to measure either with the naked eye or in stop-frame videeo. These skaters might be whirling at the rate of, say 270 degrees in a fifth of a second. It is no wonder that different observers come to different conclusions.
 
DSQ

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
It doesn’t matter what we think. The judges will do what the judges will do. It’s worth noting they have different camera angles than we see.
 
T

Tahuu

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Elucidus said:
I recommend to see the above videos in 0.25 slo-mo and consider both angles before making a decision.
Click to expand...

If anyone wants to see, especially to claim, if a jump is under-rotated or not s/he should download the video and review the jump frame-by-frame to see the moment the toepick or blade touching the ice at landing in relation to the takeoff direction.

I downloaded both videos and frame-checked the rotations. I'd say:

Liza's 3Lz< from SP was not URed.
Anna's 3Lz+3Lo< from FP was not URed.
Anna's 3Lz+1Eu+3S< from FP was URed.

ETA: I only have access to the fan cam videos and the low frame rate may have caused the miss of the underratations in Liza's 3Lz< and Anna's 3Lz+3Lo<.
 
1

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
What are we supposed to see in videos with a frame rate that is so low, that the decisive frames are missing? There's often two frames, one after the other, showing the skater at two different points/angles with an almost 180° difference, so how do we know what happened in between i.e. when exactly the toepick touched the ice?

Or when the picture is so blurry, that it is impossible to discern if there's still a gap between toepick and ice surface or if they're already touching?

Usually, in such cases, where the video or picture quality is this low, all I can see for sure is a little snap of the foot upon landing, which in many cases indicates an UR (not always though). And if the panel decided to call it as such, I have to believe that this is what they saw in person, watching on ice level, or on a replay video with somewhat better quality.
 
T

Tahuu

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
1111bm said:
What are we supposed to see in videos with a frame rate that is so low, that the decisive frames are missing? There's often two frames, one after the other, showing the skater at two different points/angles with an almost 180° difference, so how do we know what happened in between i.e. when exactly the toepick touched the ice?

Or when the picture is so blurry, that it is impossible to discern if there's still a gap between toepick and ice surface or if they're already touching?

Usually, in such cases, where the video or picture quality is this low, all I can see for sure is a little snap of the foot upon landing, which in many cases indicates an UR (not always though). And if the panel decided to call it as such, I have to believe that this is what they saw in person, watching on ice level, or on a replay video with somewhat better quality.
Click to expand...

Your point is definitely valid. We won't see UR if the video misses the moment of landing or if the video is doctored to remove the moment the toepick touching the ice as those fan video clips that claim so and so was not under rotated. However, if a frame-check shows an underrotation it is an underrotation.
 
A

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
LiamForeman said:
What is so sad is that these rules were put into effect after Sarah Flutzie and DG Hughes won Oly gold. Just the worst of all. Anna is landing those-3lps nearly OVER rotated in practice. Yes I see her-3sal was ur but her loops are good.
Click to expand...

4LP in the near future?!?! :biggrin: (Being a bit sarcastic). Hopefully they help her work on stamina a bit to not scratch the landing or flow a bit better so that she's not getting that the UR anymore or perhaps at least in the SP change the combo to be a 3LZ+3T.
 
medoroa

medoroa

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Tahuu said:
the moment the toepick or blade touching the ice at landing in relation to the takeoff direction.
Click to expand...

When did the rules specify that the landing should be viewed in relation to the take-off angle? Assuming there was a communication about this and I missed it, typically the take-off tracing is a curve while the landing tracing is also a curve. Which tangent on these curves are you looking at? How are you making sure this tangent stays immobile in your video when the camera is typically moving?

Elucidus, if you feel people get hostile when this kind of thing is brought up, it's because fans tend to operate on the assumption that they know and can tell better than the technical panel, and that they have all the facts. Based on these assumptions, fans also tend to get incredibly aggressive. Fact is, we do not have all the facts. While technical panels are human beings and will make questionable calls, the only realistic answer to your poll is 5 (or, more elaborately, "I agree and/or disagree with the panel but there is no way to make sure").
 
DenissVFan

DenissVFan

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I hope that ISU will introduce tools to measure rotation and display it on the screen so that we don't have to have these conversations after almost every competition.
 
macy

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i'm not able to see the first videos due to geoblocking, but based on the 2nd ones slowed down to .25 they both are clean. landings are supposed to be called UR in real time, which is confusing because there's nothing obvious with either one in these angles. but i guess i would need to see the other 2 before making a full conclusion. :gaah: NBC
 
1

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
medoroa said:
When did the rules specify that the landing should be viewed in relation to the take-off angle? Assuming there was a communication about this and I missed it, typically the take-off tracing is a curve while the landing tracing is also a curve. Which tangent on these curves are you looking at? How are you making sure this tangent stays immobile in your video when the camera is typically moving?
Click to expand...

This.
Don't you just love those fan videos, where they try to prove their point by choosing a supposed take-off and landing frame and draw in tangents to show said angles?
I usually can't resist and have to at least take a peek at them, because that's some top-notch entertainment right there! :laugh:
Just recently, with the latest 'phantom UR craze' on Twitter, I saw this hilarious video on ACL, that was supposed to show how badly Aymoz had URed one of his jumps in relation to Yuzu's you know, falsely-called clean landing, and believe me, those angles were a figment of their imagination if I ever saw one (mind you, the frame rate was also way too low to be able to tell anything at all in those blurry videos).
And never mind that those tangents are just drawn onto a 2D picture instead of being part of the 3D space that the skater is moving in.
 
D

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
DenissVFan said:
I hope that ISU will introduce tools to measure rotation and display it on the screen so that we don't have to have these conversations after almost every competition.
Click to expand...

I think it could be done but it would be costly to automate that, mostly because you'd have to get a lot more cameras around the rink to be able to get a good views from multiple angles. In addition, you'd have to train models with many examples that were classified by humans, so there's no way to really remove the human element from that determination anyway.
 
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