Current Ice Dance Rules Convo Inspired by Skate Canada

dorispulaski · Oct 24, 2019

This conversation about dance rules broke out in the Skate Canada Rhythm Dance thread. For those of you with no access to those threads, what is your opinion?

Do you feel the rules have loosened up too much?

What would you do differently?

WeakAnkles · Oct 25, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
If you want my opinion, i think Musicals and Finn Steps getting together is just a stuppid choice. They should go with original idea for Musicals without any pattern dance involved.

Hmm, I think you need a pattern dance. In fact, I think it's a mistake to reduce it to half a pattern. Dance is SO subjective, that the ONLY direct comparisons you can make between couples is with that pattern. I just think that coaches and choreographers and skaters are cowards, afraid to risk creating programs to music they think is unfamiliar to the audience. Which is just plain stupid, because if you look at successful couples, they usually ARE the ones who will take the risk on music choices that aren't ready for the glue factory. And when they are successful with them, of course the cowards will rush to copy it. It's sad really.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 25, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
Hmm, I think you need a pattern dance. In fact, I think it's a mistake to reduce it to half a pattern. Dance is SO subjective, that the ONLY direct comparisons you can make between couples is with that pattern. I just think that coaches and choreographers and skaters are cowards, afraid to risk creating programs to music they think is unfamiliar to the audience. Which is just plain stupid, because if you look at successful couples, they usually ARE the ones who will take the risk on music choices that aren't ready for the glue factory. And when they are successful with them, of course the cowards will rush to copy it. It's sad really.

Well, having a pattern dance didn't help anything. Popova/Mozgov had perfectly correct pattern and got low scores for it... And other steps have a levels too... The problem is, almost all the calls for partial step sequence were called as level 3 for the ladies and level 2 for men, and you can obviously see in some couples men are the stronger skaters. Tech calls (in ice dance) just don't have any sense to me at all. Or maybe the problem was only with the people who called them in this exact event.

WeakAnkles · Oct 25, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Well, having a pettern dance didn't help anything. Popova/Mozgov had perfectly correct pattern and got low scores for it... And other steps have a levels too. The problem is, almost all the calls for partial step sequence were called as level 3 for the ladies and level 2 for men, and you can obviously see in some couples men are the stronger skaters. Tech calls (in ice dance) just doesn't have any sense to me at all. Or maybe the problem was only with the people who called them in this exact event.

Well I did say during Skate America that ID is REGRESSING. It's a shame because the new judging system did WONDERS for ID. But we're back to a world of unquestioning reputation scoring, what I would call ordinal scoring (and expect skaters to stay in their place), politics, blah blah blah. It's a shame because it just kills a team like P/M, who had--until my computer went bonkers--a helluva RD going there, easily the best thing they've ever skated. And no, they weren't rewarded for it.

But I don't think eliminating the dance pattern would help. I think it would simply exacerbate the trend to all the judging shenanigans that got ID such a crappy reputation pre-Salt Lake City Olympics. The pattern is about as close to an objective scoring element as you can get. Either you are on the beat or you're not. Either you are skating the key point with the correct edge or you're not.

That's one of the reasons why I think the FD choreographic elements are such a mixed blessing/curse in the FD. Because that's totally subjective: the tech panel doesn't even score them. And they made key differences in scoring last season. And that subjective scoring is so easy to manipulate.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 25, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
Well I did say during Skate America that ID is REGRESSING. It's a shame because the new judging system did WONDERS for ID. But we're back to a world of unquestioning reputation scoring, what I would call ordinal scoring (and expect skaters to stay in their place), politics, blah blah blah. It's a shame because it just kills a team like P/M, who had--until my computer went bonkers--a helluva RD going there, easily the best thing they've ever skated. And no, they weren't rewarded for it.

But I don't think eliminating the dance pattern would help. I think it would simply exacerbate the trend to all the judging shenanigans that got ID such a crappy reputation pre-Salt Lake City Olympics. The pattern is about as close to an objective scoring element as you can get. Either you are on the beat or you're not. Either you are skating the key point with the correct edge or you're not.

That's one of the reasons why I think the FD choreographic elements are such a mixed blessing/curse in the FD. Because that's totally subjective: the tech panel doesn't even score them. And they made key differences in scoring last season. And that subjective scoring is so easy to manipulate.

Well, based on the example i was talking about (judging the levels of partial step sequence in this exact event), i don't find the tech pannel more 'objective' or correct than pannel of the judges. So, what's the point in giving the tech pannel more rights to decide the final scores?

WeakAnkles · Oct 25, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Well, based on the example i was talking about (judging the partial step sequence in this exact event), i don't think the tech pannel is more 'objective' or correct than pannel of the judges. So, what's the point in giving the tech pannel more rights to decide the final scores?

They're actually given far less "rights" now than in previous years, since all that fiddling with levels last year and with the ISU refusing to address the issue of massive GOE inflation. And with THREE elements now that they don't even score.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 25, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
They're actually given far less "rights" now than in previous years, since all that fiddling with levels last year and with the ISU refusing to address the issue of massive GOE inflation. And with THREE elements now that they don't even score.

Because their judging of the levels doesn't make sense. Of course that ISU will give more power to the pannel of judges in that case :confused2:

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Because their judging of the levels doesn't make sense. Of course that ISU will give more power to the pannel of judges in that case :confused2:

What isn't making sense? Specifics are usually very illuminating.

I think the panel of judges has far too much power compared to the tech panel.

oly2018 · Oct 26, 2019

Personally, I think the +5 -5 GOE system makes 0 sense for ice dancw. GOE is where I see the most politics. For example, if Hubbell's twizzles had been judged fairly and given proper GOE, the ranking would be different. IDK how the issues get fixed, but I am becoming really frustrated with ice dance and it is the discipline that sucked me into the sport.

rain · Oct 26, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
Well I did say during Skate America that ID is REGRESSING. It's a shame because the new judging system did WONDERS for ID. But we're back to a world of unquestioning reputation scoring, what I would call ordinal scoring (and expect skaters to stay in their place), politics, blah blah blah. It's a shame because it just kills a team like P/M, who had--until my computer went bonkers--a helluva RD going there, easily the best thing they've ever skated. And no, they weren't rewarded for it.

But I don't think eliminating the dance pattern would help. I think it would simply exacerbate the trend to all the judging shenanigans that got ID such a crappy reputation pre-Salt Lake City Olympics. The pattern is about as close to an objective scoring element as you can get. Either you are on the beat or you're not. Either you are skating the key point with the correct edge or you're not.

That's one of the reasons why I think the FD choreographic elements are such a mixed blessing/curse in the FD. Because that's totally subjective: the tech panel doesn't even score them. And they made key differences in scoring last season. And that subjective scoring is so easy to manipulate.

I agree that having the pattern is a good thing — and also wouldn't mind there being more of it like there used to be. I think the patterns can really separate the best skaters from the rest. It's too easy with everyone doing different programs and choreography to mask weaknesses otherwise. I find it useful to have at least one aspect where you can compare apples to apples. It's not foolproof. Nobody at this level is a bad skater, but it does tend to at least identify the top teams.

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

oly2018 said:
Personally, I think the +5 -5 GOE system makes 0 sense for ice dancw. GOE is where I see the most politics. For example, if Hubbell's twizzles had been judged fairly and given proper GOE, the ranking would be different. IDK how the issues get fixed, but I am becoming really frustrated with ice dance and it is the discipline that sucked me into the sport.

GOE is easy to manipulate. Tech scoring is far more difficult. Under the old corrupt ordinal system, you could manipulate the scoring with the "artistic" score. Well GOE is essentially the artistic score.

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

rain said:
I agree that having the pattern is a good thing — and also wouldn't mind there being more of it like there used to be. I think the patterns can really separate the best skaters from the rest. It's too easy with everyone doing different programs and choreography to mask weaknesses otherwise. I find it useful to have at least one aspect where you can compare apples to apples. It's not foolproof. Nobody at this level is a bad skater, but it does tend to at least identify the top teams.

:agree:

You're never going to get a foolproof system where so much of it is subjective. So why eliminate the few things that at least aim in the direction of objectivity?

I mean the answer to that is simple: it makes gaming the system so much easier.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 26, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
What isn't making sense? Specifics are usually very illuminating.

I think the panel of judges has far too much power compared to the tech panel.

I specificaly defined what is it - judging of the partial StSq. You have one tech judge for the ladies and one for the man. In this event, ladies tech judge saw almost all of their partial steps as level 3, and judge who was judging guys saw almost all of their partial steps as level 2. So, almost every couple was judged with PStL3PStM2. And in some couples men are obviously better with the steps than the ladies. So, those tech pannels decisions look logical to you!

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
I specificaly defined what doesn' t make sense - judging of the partial StSq. You have one tech judge for the ladies and one for the man. In this event, ladies tech judge saw almost all of their partial steps as level 3, and judge who was judging guys saw almost all of their partial steps as level 2. That looks logical to you!

The fact that the scoring was relatively consistent actually makes me breathe a bit easier. Outlier judges always raise a red flag for me. Now it is possible that the person judging the men is stricter or less likely to give the benefit of the doubt. Hard to tell based on one competition. What would be interesting is to have the same two tech judges scoring the couples again, only with the genders switched. Not possible I know, but wouldn't it be revealing?

rain · Oct 26, 2019

WeakAnkles said:
:agree:

You're never going to get a foolproof system where so much of it is subjective. So why eliminate the few things that at least aim in the direction of objectivity?

I mean the answer to that is simple: it makes gaming the system so much easier.

And maybe this just makes me weird or something but I often find the required sequences to be some of the best choreography in the programs...

I think it also serves to stretch skaters' abilities. I know that skaters like P/C have said they don't like having to do rhythm/short dances because they find them too restrictive, but having to do them has made them better ice dancers. Like it or not.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 26, 2019

You have specific rules for judging the levels. If one judge see something as level 2 all the time and other judge see that as level 3 all the time, how the decision of tech panel is more valuable than decision of panel of the judges then?

auser · Oct 26, 2019

oly2018 said:
Personally, I think the +5 -5 GOE system makes 0 sense for ice dancw. GOE is where I see the most politics. For example, if Hubbell's twizzles had been judged fairly and given proper GOE, the ranking would be different. IDK how the issues get fixed, but I am becoming really frustrated with ice dance and it is the discipline that sucked me into the sport.

That is wonderful to read. Please don't let the scoring frustrations dissuade your artistic eye and soul from enjoying the beauty of ice dancers' performances.

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

rain said:
And maybe this just makes me weird or something but I often find the required sequences to be some of the best choreography in the programs...

I think it also serves to stretch skaters' abilities. I know that skaters like P/C have said they don't like having to do rhythm/short dances because they find them too restrictive, but having to do them has made them better ice dancers. Like it or not.

Bingo.

It's like making people who write poetry learn to write in meters. It's restrictive yes, but it almost always make them better poets overall, with more nuanced attention to the rhythm of sound. Myself included.

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
You have specific rules for judging the levels. If one judge see something as level 2 all the time and other judge see that as level 3 all the time, how the decision of tech panel is more valuable than decision of panel of the judges then?

Those judges are not judging the same thing. One is judging the woman. The other is judging the man. And you admit that the scores for each of the women and each of the men are very consistent. If they weren't consistent, I think you'd have a stronger case.

Frankly, the panel of judges are defending an OPINION. On a technical level, I can tell you if someone is skating a correct edge with depth and clarity on a correct beat. You can then review the video and judge for yourself based on the evidence. How do you argue about an opinion? It's much easier to flim flam when you are talking about such intangibles as "performance" and "interpretation." And the flim flamming is getting more and more blatant. Like I said, ID is REGRESSING.

WeakAnkles · Oct 26, 2019

oly2018 said:
Personally, I think the +5 -5 GOE system makes 0 sense for ice dancw. GOE is where I see the most politics. For example, if Hubbell's twizzles had been judged fairly and given proper GOE, the ranking would be different. IDK how the issues get fixed, but I am becoming really frustrated with ice dance and it is the discipline that sucked me into the sport.

What auser said.

One of the reasons I'm such a relentless nag about the judging is because I don't want to go back to a system where a Tracy Wilson can tell you, before the event even starts, a judging deal was in the works where that couple was going to get screwed out of a medal, they were going to be judged this specific way in these specific dances by these specific judges, and they would be mathematically eliminated from the podium before the free skate. And then to see it go down exactly like she said.

Trust me, I get your frustration.

But even back then there were always great programs and great skating that the judges refused to recognize and to reward.

I'm not sure how such judges can live with themselves.

Current Ice Dance Rules Convo Inspired by Skate Canada

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

WeakAnkles

Baron Vladimir

WeakAnkles

Baron Vladimir

WeakAnkles

Baron Vladimir

WeakAnkles

oly2018

rain

WeakAnkles

WeakAnkles

Baron Vladimir

WeakAnkles

rain

Baron Vladimir

auser

WeakAnkles

WeakAnkles

WeakAnkles

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