Current Ice Dance Rules Convo Inspired by Skate Canada

WeakAnkles said:

I don't want to go back to a system where a Tracy Wilson can tell you, before the event even starts, a judging deal was in the works where that couple was going to get screwed out of a medal, they were going to be judged this specific way in these specific dances by these specific judges, and they would be mathematically eliminated from the podium before the free skate. And then to see it go down exactly like she said.

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You mean that time Tracy Wilson spread conspiracy theories because her fellow Canadians weren't given a gold medal over Grishuk/Platov? That was an ugly time in ice dance and still makes me look at Wilson askance sometimes, although I'm happy Bourne seems to have left that (awkward, cringy) period of her life behind.

But I notice this is one of those things ice dance fandom will never agree on. Which is fine, people can look at the same thing and come to wildly different conclusions, but let's at least be a bit more specific so people can go look and judge for themselves.

medoroa said:

You mean that time Tracy Wilson spread conspiracy theories because her fellow Canadians weren't given a gold medal over Grishuk/Platov? That was an ugly time in ice dance and still makes me look at Wilson askance sometimes, although I'm happy Bourne seems to have left that (awkward, cringy) period of her life behind.

But I notice this is one of those things ice dance fandom will never agree on. Which is fine, people can look at the same thing and come to wildly different conclusions, but let's at least be a bit more specific so people can go look and judge for themselves.

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You're right. We;ll never agree. You call it a theory. I say when someone predicts something that will happen and it happens exactly like she says it will then it's either more than just a "theory" or said person has extraordinary ESP,. Note to self: befriend Tracy Wilson asap. Surely then she'll give me the winning numbers in a future lottery.

rain said:

And maybe this just makes me weird or something but I often find the required sequences to be some of the best choreography in the programs...

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So much so! There's a reason those patterns have endured and been canonized. Bring back two sections in seniors! :sad4:

WeakAnkles said:

You're right. We;ll never agree. You call it a theory. I say when someone predicts something that will happen and it happens exactly like she says it will then it's either more than just a "theory" or said person has extraordinary ESP,. Note to self: befriend Tracy Wilson asap. Surely then she'll give me the winning numbers in a future lottery.

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I too can predict that Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu will probably battle for gold at worlds if they go. It's a theory based on what's been presented to me. It's not ESP or anything particularly special, and it doesn't prove anything about conspiracies.

All I'm saying is that you're entitled to your opinion but it's not fair at all to make vague doom and gloom comments without giving people the opportunity to go see if they actually agree with you.

For anyone curious, the topic is the 1998 Olympics. Opinions are divided.

medoroa said:

I too can predict that Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu will probably battle for gold at worlds if they go. It's a theory based on what's been presented to me. It's not ESP or anything particularly special, and it doesn't prove anything about conspiracies.

All I'm saying is that you're entitled to your opinion but it's not fair at all to make vague doom and gloom comments without giving people the opportunity to go see if they actually agree with you.

For anyone curious, the topic is the 1998 Olympics. Opinions are divided.

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There's a difference between saying "It will be cold in the winter" and "On February 19 at 7:17 PM it will be 23 degrees Fahrenheit and will begin to rain"...when you're making that prediction a week before the day in question.

The judges's voting is a matter of public record. Opinions may be divided. They usually are because gosh gee wililkers, how many people who engage in shenanigans up and announce that they have indeed engaged in shenanigans? But, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein, a record is a record is a record. People can be free to look it up.

WeakAnkles said:

Those judges are not judging the same thing. One is judging the woman. The other is judging the man. And you admit that the scores for each of the women and each of the men are very consistent. If they weren't consistent, I think you'd have a stronger case.

Frankly, the panel of judges are defending an OPINION. On a technical level, I can tell you if someone is skating a correct edge with depth and clarity on a correct beat. You can then review the video and judge for yourself based on the evidence. How do you argue about an opinion? It's much easier to flim flam when you are talking about such intangibles as "performance" and "interpretation." And the flim flamming is getting more and more blatant. Like I said, ID is REGRESSING.

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I completely agree. ID is regressing. 3 choreo moves is too many. And at least one full iteration of the pattern is better than a partial. For one thing, it is much harder to judge the size of the pattern in a partial.

Another thing, a key feature of IJS is that a skater can challenge a tech level of their own and get it reversed, if the challenge is filed before the event ends. GOE cannot be challenged. So the score from a tech panel judged skill is harder to fiddle, at least on the low side.

If any of the guys with the level2' s coaches thought they could defend level 3, there would have been a challenge. And yes there have been tech call challenges. Shpilband has done it a number of times.

auser said:

That is wonderful to read. Please don't let the scoring frustrations dissuade your artistic eye and soul from enjoying the beauty of ice dancers' performances.

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This is my tactic from some time already, to put more energy & care in appreciation of what I like/who I cheer for than spend my time to dwell on politics & things that annoy me

Thanks to Weak Ankles for many thoughtful posts on this subject!

Thank you Doris. And I thank Baron for a civilized and very interesting exchange of viewpoints. I do think he's right to question wonky judging. And if I was on the ISU, I would push to have judges like that more closely monitored.

Figure skating has lost its popularity in Western Europe and North America for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is a lack of integrity and credibility specifically because of all the politics and shenanigans. Why bother watching a sport where the scoring not only appears really complicated but more fixed than a crooked carnival?

When Sarah Hughes won the Olympics during the scandal ridden Salt Lake City games, I remember people who were casual fans (and Ameican) happy not specifically because she was American. I mean, that was definitely a big part of it, let's be honest. But it was more because they thought, well gee finally the best skater won for what she skated that night. Even if we don't know who she is. Liz Manley got the same reaction from people I knew who were casual fans during HER Olympics.

All these rule changes in ID don't look like they're for the benefit of the FANS. And I think on some level the fans know it.

WeakAnkles said:

Thank you Doris. And I thank Baron for a civilized and very interesting exchange of viewpoints. I do think he's right to question wonky judging. And if I was on the ISU, I would push to have judges like that more closely monitored.

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:thumbsup: I didn't call judgding neccesarily wrong in that sense that there are many things which are affecting skaters placement beside the skaters themselfes. I found placements in big competitons in recent years more/less correct (taking into account that home skaters will always get a little bit of help from the judges, but that exists in every sport and i learn to live with it). What i'm questioning is another thing. For me, point of the judging system, beside to determine the placements, is to give same sort of feedback to the skaters. So when skaters get level 2 or level 3 on something, that is telling them what they need to work on to became better, to improve themselves. For me that is more valuable thing judges need to do, than to determine correct placements.

Yes and thanks to Baron Vladimir too!