Flip Jump | Golden Skate

Flip Jump

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Hi. I am having so many issues with my Single Flip Jump. My toepick when I land is not able to face the same direction that it's facing when it's first placed in the ice. I can't get a full revolution, I'm only getting maybe a quarter around from where it takes off and lands. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, I have a pretty good amount of strength and rotation with my other jumps. I've been watching some videos on You Tube and I noticed that some skaters (even high level ones) are almost spinning or pivoting on their toepick quite a bit before the toepick leaves the ice. For example, if you think about a clock and they are facing 12:00 when they place the pick into the ice, it seems like many of them are pivoting or turning on the toepick until about 5:00, then the toepick leaves the ice and the toepick lands facing 12:00. With my Flip, if I pick in facing 12:00 then my toepick is leaving the ice around 2:00 or 3:00. Then it's returning to the ice around 6:00 and the only way I'm able to get back around to 12:00 with my blade is by doing a sharp outside edge which turns myself the right direction. So I thought, "okay I need to start pivoting around on my pick before I jump, which should make it easier b/c that's less time in the air" but when I asked a coach about this they said that I don't need to do that b/c it will create a bad habit. But unless I delay the toepick leaving the ice until about 5:00 or 6:00, there's no way I can get all the way around with my toepick landing at 12:00. Is it cheating if I do that??? I'm extremely frustrated and confused. And I read somewhere that the Flip is like a toe-assisted Salchow and I know with a Salchow you pivot about halfway on an back inside edge before you jump, so it seems to me that maybe the Flip is the same way except your pivoting about half way around on the toepick instead of the edge (and you land on same foot whereas Salchow you land on opposite foot). If anyone has any insight I would love your feedback!
 

sk8kirsty

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
Hi. I am having so many issues with my Single Flip Jump. My toepick when I land is not able to face the same direction that it's facing when it's first placed in the ice. I can't get a full revolution, I'm only getting maybe a quarter around from where it takes off and lands. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, I have a pretty good amount of strength and rotation with my other jumps. I've been watching some videos on You Tube and I noticed that some skaters (even high level ones) are almost spinning or pivoting on their toepick quite a bit before the toepick leaves the ice. For example, if you think about a clock and they are facing 12:00 when they place the pick into the ice, it seems like many of them are pivoting or turning on the toepick until about 5:00, then the toepick leaves the ice and the toepick lands facing 12:00. With my Flip, if I pick in facing 12:00 then my toepick is leaving the ice around 2:00 or 3:00. Then it's returning to the ice around 6:00 and the only way I'm able to get back around to 12:00 with my blade is by doing a sharp outside edge which turns myself the right direction. So I thought, "okay I need to start pivoting around on my pick before I jump, which should make it easier b/c that's less time in the air" but when I asked a coach about this they said that I don't need to do that b/c it will create a bad habit. But unless I delay the toepick leaving the ice until about 5:00 or 6:00, there's no way I can get all the way around with my toepick landing at 12:00. Is it cheating if I do that??? I'm extremely frustrated and confused. And I read somewhere that the Flip is like a toe-assisted Salchow and I know with a Salchow you pivot about halfway on an back inside edge before you jump, so it seems to me that maybe the Flip is the same way except your pivoting about half way around on the toepick instead of the edge (and you land on same foot whereas Salchow you land on opposite foot). If anyone has any insight I would love your feedback!
It's okay to have these issues, don't get frustrated, it takes a long time to get a new jump. Don't think too much about the pre rotation. If you worry about this too much, you will pre rotate too much which will mess up your jump and will count as cheating it.
You can pre rotate on the ice slightly but definitely not for more than half a rotation.
A good thing to do is to practice your flip jump off ice until it is perfect. This will make it a lot easier to do on the ice.
Really focus on the height and rotation of your jump. To work on height, do some off ice jumping exercises, just jumping on the spot then into a landing position can help and also try using a jump rope as it works well for improving height.
If you have good height in a jump, you will have more time to rotate in the air, meaning you wouldn't have to pre rotate as much.
Work on your rotation and try to make it faster by again doing your flip jump off the ice. Pull your arms in when you are in the air and make sure you cross your feet. This will help with making your rotation faster. Also practice your rotation on a trampoline if it is possible. This is good because you don't need to worry too much about getting good height so you can just focus on your rotation.
And finally, the most important thing, practice practice practice. As I've said, learning a new jump takes time, be patient and stick with it, you will get it. Ask your coach to look at what you're doing and to give you some advice on it if you are still struggling.
Hope this helped : ))
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
And I read somewhere that the Flip is like a toe-assisted Salchow and I know with a Salchow you pivot about halfway on an back inside edge before you jump, so it seems to me that maybe the Flip is the same way except your pivoting about half way around on the toepick instead of the edge (and you land on same foot whereas Salchow you land on opposite foot).

How is your loop jump? Flip is closer to a loop than to a Salchow. In a loop, you press your RBO edge (assuming you rotate CCW) to generate rotation before lifting off from the toe pick. In a flip, you transfer your weight from the LBI edge to the R toe pick and lift off from the toe pick.

I would advice you, as the skater, not to overanalyze the jump like how you just did. That's the job of judges and tech specialists. Instead, try to focus on learning the right body mechanics.
 

immisnow

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 2, 2018
How is your loop jump? Flip is closer to a loop than to a Salchow.

I agree. I had to get used to the feeling of a loop before I could do a proper flip. Practicing loops before trying flips helped me achieve the correct positions in the air and on my landing (my free leg tends to be a bit wild).
 

Figuringitout

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
My coach always says the flip is most like a loop, however the flip is my best jump whereas loop is my worst lol.

In terms of pre-rotation on the ice, try not to focus on achieving that. Itll only develop bad habits and hold back your flip in the long term. Technically, my coach says you can turn the flip about an eighth of a rotation on the ice (quarter for loop, and half for sal and toe), but again, thinking about pre-rotating will steer you in the wrong direction. The turn on the ice will happen naturally when you jump, its not something you actively have to try to do (unlike turning the sal toe and loop).

When going for the flip dont think about trying to rotate around as fast as you can to get the rotation. Instead think about jumping *up* as high as you can and the rotation just comes naturally with the height. The flip is a lot easier when you focus on height as opposed to rotation.
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
It's okay to have these issues, don't get frustrated, it takes a long time to get a new jump. Don't think too much about the pre rotation. If you worry about this too much, you will pre rotate too much which will mess up your jump and will count as cheating it.
You can pre rotate on the ice slightly but definitely not for more than half a rotation.
A good thing to do is to practice your flip jump off ice until it is perfect. This will make it a lot easier to do on the ice.
Really focus on the height and rotation of your jump. To work on height, do some off ice jumping exercises, just jumping on the spot then into a landing position can help and also try using a jump rope as it works well for improving height.
If you have good height in a jump, you will have more time to rotate in the air, meaning you wouldn't have to pre rotate as much.
Work on your rotation and try to make it faster by again doing your flip jump off the ice. Pull your arms in when you are in the air and make sure you cross your feet. This will help with making your rotation faster. Also practice your rotation on a trampoline if it is possible. This is good because you don't need to worry too much about getting good height so you can just focus on your rotation.
And finally, the most important thing, practice practice practice. As I've said, learning a new jump takes time, be patient and stick with it, you will get it. Ask your coach to look at what you're doing and to give you some advice on it if you are still struggling.
Hope this helped : ))

Thank you for your feedback. I will take your advice and try not to get too focused on how much I should pre-rotate. I've been hesitant to practice jumps off-ice b/c I feel like there's a big risk of rolling an ankle but maybe I could buy some work boots (or some other type of shoe with a lot of ankle support) so that I can practice these off ice b/c I definitely think that could help with the Flip. The jump rope and trampoline are also good suggestions. Thank you so much and I'll definitely keep practicing! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
How is your loop jump? Flip is closer to a loop than to a Salchow. In a loop, you press your RBO edge (assuming you rotate CCW) to generate rotation before lifting off from the toe pick. In a flip, you transfer your weight from the LBI edge to the R toe pick and lift off from the toe pick.

I would advice you, as the skater, not to overanalyze the jump like how you just did. That's the job of judges and tech specialists. Instead, try to focus on learning the right body mechanics.

My loop jump is finally okay, I won't say great but it's gotten a lot better in the last couple of months. It was a struggle for me to learn though! And I can see how the Flip is similar to a Loop jump. You're right, I am probably overanalyzing this jump way too much and that's probably making me too uptight when I go to do the jump. Thank you for your help! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
I agree. I had to get used to the feeling of a loop before I could do a proper flip. Practicing loops before trying flips helped me achieve the correct positions in the air and on my landing (my free leg tends to be a bit wild).

I've practiced the Loop quite a bit and although its gotten a lot better I think there's room for improvement. I will continue to practice it in addition to the Flip. My free leg tends to be wild too, LOL. With the Loop I learned that I have to keep it close in to the skating foot. Thanks for your help! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
My coach always says the flip is most like a loop, however the flip is my best jump whereas loop is my worst lol.

In terms of pre-rotation on the ice, try not to focus on achieving that. Itll only develop bad habits and hold back your flip in the long term. Technically, my coach says you can turn the flip about an eighth of a rotation on the ice (quarter for loop, and half for sal and toe), but again, thinking about pre-rotating will steer you in the wrong direction. The turn on the ice will happen naturally when you jump, its not something you actively have to try to do (unlike turning the sal toe and loop).

When going for the flip dont think about trying to rotate around as fast as you can to get the rotation. Instead think about jumping *up* as high as you can and the rotation just comes naturally with the height. The flip is a lot easier when you focus on height as opposed to rotation.

Thank you for giving me the "stats" on how far you're allowed to pre-rotate on the different types of jumps. As you suggested, I will try not to focus on that anymore, though
and will instead try to focus on height. I have practically no height right now...it looks more like a spin than a jump so I definitely need more height. Thank you so much for your feedback! :)
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Thank you for giving me the "stats" on how far you're allowed to pre-rotate on the different types of jumps. As you suggested, I will try not to focus on that anymore, though
and will instead try to focus on height. I have practically no height right now...it looks more like a spin than a jump so I definitely need more height. Thank you so much for your feedback! :)

the "legal" recommended MAXIMUM prerotations:
Salchow, Toe, Loop double/triple/quad (single may vary?): 0.5 revolutions - judges blind and allow 220 degrees on triple loops and salchows and also toe-axels.
Flip, Lutz Double/triple/quad (Possible but difficult when first learning to do 0 prerotation) maximum 0.25 revolutions, however judges and tech specialists are currently blind and have allowed up to 0.75 revolutions prerotation on quads.

The big thing you need to watch for is doing edge take-offs on toe jumps, rather than toe-assisted take offs.
Forget about prerotation when learning a jump, and use filming or a coach to make sure you're doing correct take off.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Have you practiced Half-Flips first?
I've never done those when I was learning single Flip, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I imagine that this could be a helpful exercise to teach you how to pick in correctly and vault yourself up, without focusing on achieving a whole rotation in the air.
Because frankly, the moment your take-off is right, the rotation should happen on its own, at least I've never felt like I had to consciously focus on it, I only ever focused on the take-off. :shrug:
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Hi. I am having so many issues with my Single Flip Jump. My toepick when I land is not able to face the same direction that it's facing when it's first placed in the ice. I can't get a full revolution, I'm only getting maybe a quarter around from where it takes off and lands. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, I have a pretty good amount of strength and rotation with my other jumps. I've been watching some videos on You Tube and I noticed that some skaters (even high level ones) are almost spinning or pivoting on their toepick quite a bit before the toepick leaves the ice. For example, if you think about a clock and they are facing 12:00 when they place the pick into the ice, it seems like many of them are pivoting or turning on the toepick until about 5:00, then the toepick leaves the ice and the toepick lands facing 12:00. With my Flip, if I pick in facing 12:00 then my toepick is leaving the ice around 2:00 or 3:00. Then it's returning to the ice around 6:00 and the only way I'm able to get back around to 12:00 with my blade is by doing a sharp outside edge which turns myself the right direction. So I thought, "okay I need to start pivoting around on my pick before I jump, which should make it easier b/c that's less time in the air" but when I asked a coach about this they said that I don't need to do that b/c it will create a bad habit. But unless I delay the toepick leaving the ice until about 5:00 or 6:00, there's no way I can get all the way around with my toepick landing at 12:00. Is it cheating if I do that??? I'm extremely frustrated and confused. And I read somewhere that the Flip is like a toe-assisted Salchow and I know with a Salchow you pivot about halfway on an back inside edge before you jump, so it seems to me that maybe the Flip is the same way except your pivoting about half way around on the toepick instead of the edge (and you land on same foot whereas Salchow you land on opposite foot). If anyone has any insight I would love your feedback!

You said you asked “a coach” and watched YouTube videos. Are you working with a coach or are you trying to teach yourself these jumps?
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Hi. I am having so many issues with my Single Flip Jump. My toepick when I land is not able to face the same direction that it's facing when it's first placed in the ice. I can't get a full revolution, I'm only getting maybe a quarter around from where it takes off and lands. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, I have a pretty good amount of strength and rotation with my other jumps. I've been watching some videos on You Tube and I noticed that some skaters (even high level ones) are almost spinning or pivoting on their toepick quite a bit before the toepick leaves the ice. For example, if you think about a clock and they are facing 12:00 when they place the pick into the ice, it seems like many of them are pivoting or turning on the toepick until about 5:00, then the toepick leaves the ice and the toepick lands facing 12:00. With my Flip, if I pick in facing 12:00 then my toepick is leaving the ice around 2:00 or 3:00. Then it's returning to the ice around 6:00 and the only way I'm able to get back around to 12:00 with my blade is by doing a sharp outside edge which turns myself the right direction. So I thought, "okay I need to start pivoting around on my pick before I jump, which should make it easier b/c that's less time in the air" but when I asked a coach about this they said that I don't need to do that b/c it will create a bad habit. But unless I delay the toepick leaving the ice until about 5:00 or 6:00, there's no way I can get all the way around with my toepick landing at 12:00. Is it cheating if I do that??? I'm extremely frustrated and confused. And I read somewhere that the Flip is like a toe-assisted Salchow and I know with a Salchow you pivot about halfway on an back inside edge before you jump, so it seems to me that maybe the Flip is the same way except your pivoting about half way around on the toepick instead of the edge (and you land on same foot whereas Salchow you land on opposite foot). If anyone has any insight I would love your feedback!

Oh please tell me you have a coach that will help you with this and you aren't trying to just get tips from coaches around the rink w/o having one yourself, and from watching YT videos. If the latter is the case, get a coach now and stop trying to do this stuff on your own, you're risking bad habits as well as injury.
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
the "legal" recommended MAXIMUM prerotations:
Salchow, Toe, Loop double/triple/quad (single may vary?): 0.5 revolutions - judges blind and allow 220 degrees on triple loops and salchows and also toe-axels.
Flip, Lutz Double/triple/quad (Possible but difficult when first learning to do 0 prerotation) maximum 0.25 revolutions, however judges and tech specialists are currently blind and have allowed up to 0.75 revolutions prerotation on quads.

The big thing you need to watch for is doing edge take-offs on toe jumps, rather than toe-assisted take offs.
Forget about prerotation when learning a jump, and use filming or a coach to make sure you're doing correct take off.

Thank you for sharing these maximum prerotations but I will try not to focus on this any longer, as you suggest. That's a great suggestion to film myself. I did start doing that right before I posed this question and that's how I discovered that I wasn't getting all the way around on my jump. I didn't realize it before b/c the rotation from the jump was causing me to flip my blade quickly upon landing so then it made it seem that I was getting all the way around when in reality I wasn't. For example, I was starting the jump at 12:00, toepick landing at 9:00 or 10:00 and then quickly flipping my blade onto outside edge to face 12:00 so for quite a while, I had no idea that the toepick wasn't landing at 12:00 until I started videoing myself. I have a coach who is working with me as well. Thank you for your help! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Have you practiced Half-Flips first?
I've never done those when I was learning single Flip, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I imagine that this could be a helpful exercise to teach you how to pick in correctly and vault yourself up, without focusing on achieving a whole rotation in the air.
Because frankly, the moment your take-off is right, the rotation should happen on its own, at least I've never felt like I had to consciously focus on it, I only ever focused on the take-off. :shrug:

That's a great suggestion, yes I did start practicing Half Flips again b/c my Half Flips were never that great to begin with but it passed the LTS test and sadly once I passed that test, I didn't really continue to practice them. I'm hopeful that practicing these again will help. Thank you! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
You said you asked “a coach” and watched YouTube videos. Are you working with a coach or are you trying to teach yourself these jumps?

I am working with a coach but he wasn't there at that session, I was just practicing on my own so I ended up asking another coach that was out on the ice the same time as me. My coach actually never told me that I wasn't getting all the way around on the jump. I noticed it myself after analyzing video I took of my Flips. An example of what's happening is I was starting the jump at 12:00, toepick landing at 9:00 or 10:00 and then quickly flipping my blade onto outside edge to face 12:00 so for quite a while, I had no idea that the toepick wasn't landing at 12:00 until I started videoing myself and he never noticed it either. I think the quick flipping of the blade upon landing was deceiving both of us. I'm not blaming him, I know it can be hard to notice everything in "real time". I had to take video and then slow it down to like a quarter speed before I noticed I wasn't getting all the way around. Thank you for your response! :)
 

sarahspiral

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Oh please tell me you have a coach that will help you with this and you aren't trying to just get tips from coaches around the rink w/o having one yourself, and from watching YT videos. If the latter is the case, get a coach now and stop trying to do this stuff on your own, you're risking bad habits as well as injury.

I do have a coach, he just wasn't there at that session I was referring to where I asked another coach for advice. But my coach never noticed I wasn't getting all the way around on the jump...I didn't either until I analyzed video of my jumps. The energy from the rotation was pulling me around onto a back outside edge upon landing, and while I know this is supposed to happen, the back edge was pulling me around to the starting point of my jump rather than pulling me around past the starting point. For example, if I started the jump at 12:00, toepick lands around 9 or 10:00 and then my blade is quickly flipping around on the outside edge to 12:00 rather than me landing with my toepick at 12:00. I hope this makes sense, it's hard to put into words and I don't really want to post a video, lol. I have been talking to him about it since I first posted this question and his theory is that I'm stopping when I get back onto my toepick (I'm stopping all my momentum instead of jumping through the toepick and this is why my jump is pretty much right in place and doesn't cover any distance) and then I'm rotating around on the toepick but I don't have enough energy to get all the way around since I'm stopping my momentum that I built up from the 3 turn and the inside edge on other foot. He thinks it's a mental block I have about getting back on my toepick, that I'm scared to have all my weight on it. I don't know??? He says I need to work on not coming to a stop on the toepick....I don't think that I'm literally stopping but I guess my momentum is slowing way down. I don't know how to get past that if that truly is the problem. He's been suggesting for me to work on Half Flips again. Thank You for your reply! :) If you are anyone else has any other suggestions, please let me know!
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
I am working with a coach but he wasn't there at that session, I was just practicing on my own so I ended up asking another coach that was out on the ice the same time as me. My coach actually never told me that I wasn't getting all the way around on the jump. I noticed it myself after analyzing video I took of my Flips. An example of what's happening is I was starting the jump at 12:00, toepick landing at 9:00 or 10:00 and then quickly flipping my blade onto outside edge to face 12:00 so for quite a while, I had no idea that the toepick wasn't landing at 12:00 until I started videoing myself and he never noticed it either. I think the quick flipping of the blade upon landing was deceiving both of us. I'm not blaming him, I know it can be hard to notice everything in "real time". I had to take video and then slow it down to like a quarter speed before I noticed I wasn't getting all the way around. Thank you for your response! :)

I think that you're over thinking things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've identified a problem after watching a video of yourself (without your coach) that your coach had not identified. Slow motion can be useful in some instances, but not in others. In this case, it sounds like your jump is 1/4 or less under rotated, and this is generally accepted as a cleanly landed jump, especially at the level you are at. If the under rotation is not apparent in real time, then it's probably not as bad as you think it is, even if it exists. There are also reasons that a coach might not comment on the under rotation, especially if there are problems with the takeoff or landing that are leading to the under rotation.

I suffered from over thinking when I skated (that's why I became a coach) and it really hurt my jumps. I suggest leaving the in depth analysis (especially with video and slow motion) to your coach and focus on applying the corrections he give you. Trust that he knows what he's doing and can help you improve. If you don't trust that your coach can help you become the best you can, then maybe it's time to consider a new one.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I do have a coach, he just wasn't there at that session I was referring to where I asked another coach for advice. But my coach never noticed I wasn't getting all the way around on the jump...I didn't either until I analyzed video of my jumps. The energy from the rotation was pulling me around onto a back outside edge upon landing, and while I know this is supposed to happen, the back edge was pulling me around to the starting point of my jump rather than pulling me around past the starting point. For example, if I started the jump at 12:00, toepick lands around 9 or 10:00 and then my blade is quickly flipping around on the outside edge to 12:00 rather than me landing with my toepick at 12:00. I hope this makes sense, it's hard to put into words and I don't really want to post a video, lol. I have been talking to him about it since I first posted this question and his theory is that I'm stopping when I get back onto my toepick (I'm stopping all my momentum instead of jumping through the toepick and this is why my jump is pretty much right in place and doesn't cover any distance) and then I'm rotating around on the toepick but I don't have enough energy to get all the way around since I'm stopping my momentum that I built up from the 3 turn and the inside edge on other foot. He thinks it's a mental block I have about getting back on my toepick, that I'm scared to have all my weight on it. I don't know??? He says I need to work on not coming to a stop on the toepick....I don't think that I'm literally stopping but I guess my momentum is slowing way down. I don't know how to get past that if that truly is the problem. He's been suggesting for me to work on Half Flips again. Thank You for your reply! :) If you are anyone else has any other suggestions, please let me know!

Yes, it sounds like you may not be following through and stopping when you get back to the pick. I know this is going to sound crazy, but don't overthink it and let your body do it's thing: The more we overthink and try to make the jump work with our brains instead of muscle memory, things go awry.

Good luck!
 

sandraskates

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Yes, I sounds like you may not be following through and stopping when you get back to the pick. I know this is going to sound crazy, but don't overthink it and let your body do it's thing, the more we overthink and make the jump work with our brains instead of muscle memory, things go awry.
Good luck!

And that is the TRUTH!!!!!
 
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