Hanyu's technical viewpoints on judging and the path sport taking | Golden Skate

Hanyu's technical viewpoints on judging and the path sport taking

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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Very interesting. He is so polite, yet, well, clear. *That* is how your make a point :)

Although I know it wasn’t why it was posted, I also love how gracious Yuzu is acknowledging other skaters. Sasha here, Camden at the press conference, I’ve read very complimentary comments about Jason.

This attitude works :thumbsup:
 

DSQ

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Apr 14, 2018
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That is the politest heap of shade that I have even seen thrown.

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m in aw of it and I understand his point of view. Still I’m not sure what's a better approach his way or brutal honesty!

Now I’m not saying I necessarily actually agree with everything he’s saying but it’s interesting as always to have these transitions.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m in aw of it and I understand his point of view. Still I’m not sure what's a better approach his way or brutal honesty!

Now I’m not saying I necessarily actually agree with everything he’s saying but it’s interesting as always to have these transitions.
OMG... I see only 3 replays of his... Am I missing something?
 

Oshun

Rinkside
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Jul 26, 2018
It's truly wonderful though! He is a cerebral type of guy and is not just emoting or complaining he really tries to think it through and figure out how to work within a given scoring system. But he still has very strong preferences relating to what he considers quality skating for him. He pushes against the trend away from artistry by consciously trying to show the world the difference between mastering certain technical elements without it and mastering them and raising the artistic level and overall complexity at the same time.

Polite shade is the most effective shade.
 

Alexz

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Mar 29, 2016
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I think there is a better translation of this very same interview. It is a bit more accurate and better adopted to English-speaking world. Ok, lets have it as alternative version here as well. Different translation to the same interview:

Part 1 “I really had serious doubts about whether doing steps and transitions into and out of jumps, was being evaluated by the judging panel for just about forever…I have placed the most importance on this and skated (all these years).": https://twitter.com/Iron_Klaus/status/1188817380752969734?s=20

Part 2 (Yuzuru is thinking about removing a lot of transitions): https://twitter.com/Iron_Klaus/status/1188849302396903429?s=20
 

TallyT

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Apr 23, 2018
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Australia
Yuzu's skill at saying exactly what he wants and means, and in the most impeccably polite and nuanced way, has always impressed me and IMO would awe many politicians. I think people forget that, as young as he still is, he has been speaking to a huge public audience about skating, about life, about disaster relief and charity work, about a whole range of issues, since he was barely seventeen.

We English speakers miss a lot because of the language barrier so I am always so grateful to the fans who translate his words so carefully.

I hope his SC triumph and the ISU's tweeted volte-face is a harbinger, and a sign that he doesn't have to again consider reducing the complexity and extraness of his transitions and skating skills, and that he can show the younger skaters looking up to him that having and doing it all is possible.
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
I genuinely hope that ISU values the opinion of their superstar and from here on look more carefully at those bullet points when awarding GOE. The fact that he decided to battle the scoring system one last time is alarming. We could have lost his mesmerizing performances for good as he would need to fit into the system to win. And, selfishly, I want to think that all of us voicing out our opinion in every platform after ACI had a small role in this change of attitude by ISU.
 

medoroa

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
My unpopular opinions in which I disagree with hugely popular skaters both past and present, let me show you them (because clearly, I have no sense of self-preservation).

He sounds like he's finally getting old. It reminds me of the types of things late-career Plushenko, Patrick Chan, or Fernandez said. When you're a young up-and-coming skater you might have issues with rules and judging, but you're determined to exploit the rules as they are, beat the judges and the competition over their heads, and advance to the elite ranks, which is exactly what Hanyu did back in the day. But when skaters (especially top skaters) get older and start losing to younger skaters or start receiving scores they do not believe they should have received, they tend to start complaining about rules and judging being wrong.

Usually, the reality is that rules and judges and scores now are not more or less wrong than they were "back in the day". They're just different and put importance on different things. Currently, importance is put on exploring how to best achieve multiple types of quads. This is the reason for the new zayak rule (they got tired of seeing 4T almost exclusively), less of a scrutiny on takeoff, and giving away GOE like candy on high-BV elements. In the past, importance was placed on how to achieve higher quality in individual elements. This was the reason for frankly ridiculous DG rules, incredibly strict GOE, and importance placed on TR in and out of jumps. Neither is more or less "fair" or "correct". They're aiming to achieve different outcomes. Hanyu's style was developed to fit the past standards, and he did incredibly well with it! But that doesn't make those past standards objectively more "correct" (I, for one, despised them, and I was fed up with men's skating between 2010 and recently). When multiple quads have been achieved, ISU will likely swing its pendulum back towards more strict control, possibly even introduce "pre-rotation" into the rules.

You can see what older skaters tend to do in two ways: they have less to lose now and therefore more freedom to go against the judges and officials, or they are losing perspective of how they themselves rose to the top and are complaining about younger skaters doing exactly what they themselves did back then (i.e. aligning themselves with the rules and judging standards as they are). Usually it's both. What I think about Hanyu is what I thought of Fernandez when he complained about his UR call and "pre-rotations": they might be right or they might be wrong, but that's pretty irrelevant to me; if they truly feel strongly about "fairness", please become officials who will defend other skaters and make things more "fair" for future skaters. That would be incredibly constructive and I welcome it. Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities while insisting your own technique is objectively correct and objectively worth more points -- is not constructive, at least not in my mind. It's exploiting his influences for his own gain rather than the gain of skating in general. And no matter how polite he's being about it, or how much you might personally agree with him, that is what Hanyu is doing.

Also, the things he says about his own transitions are not true. Comparing his programs to when he first skated them, he has taken out transitions in and out of elements, so that sounds mostly like politiking on his part, PR to influence how people view his skating. Not to mention he's still getting incredibly high scores after taking out transitions, so I can't really say he's being treated unfairly compared to others. (Also, Orser and TCC know perfectly well what the current trends in judging are and have already stopped focusing on TR. Orser would never say what Hanyu is saying here, he has much more of a long-term view of skating and judging trends.)

P.S. But I'm not surprised this is the direction Hanyu headed. It was expected since that time he said 4Lo should have a higher BV. Again, I truly believe he should join the technical committee and work to make it happen if he truly believes that's more fair for future skaters.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
My unpopular opinions in which I disagree with hugely popular skaters both past and present, let me show you them (because clearly, I have no sense of self-preservation).

He sounds like he's finally getting old. It reminds me of the types of things late-career Plushenko, Patrick Chan, or Fernandez said. When you're a young up-and-coming skater you might have issues with rules and judging, but you're determined to exploit the rules as they are, beat the judges and the competition over their heads, and advance to the elite ranks, which is exactly what Hanyu did back in the day. But when skaters (especially top skaters) get older and start losing to younger skaters or start receiving scores they do not believe they should have received, they tend to start complaining about rules and judging being wrong.

Usually, the reality is that rules and judges and scores now are not more or less wrong than they were "back in the day". They're just different and put importance on different things. Currently, importance is put on exploring how to best achieve multiple types of quads. This is the reason for the new zayak rule (they got tired of seeing 4T almost exclusively), less of a scrutiny on takeoff, and giving away GOE like candy on high-BV elements. In the past, importance was placed on how to achieve higher quality in individual elements. This was the reason for frankly ridiculous DG rules, incredibly strict GOE, and importance placed on TR in and out of jumps. Neither is more or less "fair" or "correct". They're aiming to achieve different outcomes. Hanyu's style was developed to fit the past standards, and he did incredibly well with it! But that doesn't make those past standards objectively more "correct" (I, for one, despised them, and I was fed up with men's skating between 2010 and recently).

You can see what older skaters tend to do in two ways: they have less to lose now and therefore more freedom to go against the judges and officials, or they are losing perspective of how they themselves rose to the top and are complaining about younger skaters doing exactly what they themselves did back then (i.e. aligning themselves with the rules and judging standards as they are). Usually it's both. What I think about Hanyu is what I thought of Fernandez when he complained about his UR call: they might be right or they might be wrong, but that's pretty irrelevant to me; if they truly feel strongly about "fairness", please become officials who will defend other skaters and make things more "fair" for future skaters. That would be incredibly constructive and I welcome it. Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities while insisting your own technique is objectively correct and objectively worth more points -- is not constructive, at least not in my mind. And no matter how polite he's being about it, that is what Hanyu is doing.

Also, the things he says about his own transitions are not true. Comparing his programs to when he first skated them, he has taken out transitions in and out of elements, so that sounds mostly like politiking on his part, PR to influence how people view his skating. Not to mention he's still getting incredibly high scores after taking out transitions, so I can't really say he's being treated unfairly compared to others.

Well, I was worried that Hanyu had made his points in so mild a manner than no one would want to continue this conversion at all. I thought most might just nod and say, 'alright'. :laugh: Your post perfectly encapsulates why most skaters do not even try to question the judging trends aloud-all the reasons why they grin and bear it and 'try harder' instead. They are not bad points.

I disagree with you for the reasons you think Hanyu has for making these statements at this time.

In no part of his interview does he complain about younger skaters not even indirectly. -Indeed, Yuzu has always made it a point to complement younger skaters whom he admires, even when they are direct competition. Nor does he criticize anyone's scores.
He does point out where the judges are giving unclear signals. Where the judging does not seem to follow the stated rules. -And who is to say Yuzuru, Fernandez and Chan won't become ISU officials eventually and try to work from the inside to fix things? But to expect him to not make observations about judging until such a time seems a little strange. I think it can be constructive to have an top athlete, who has universal respect, make observations about judging trends from the point of view of an athlete. His choice of words is very considered and he emphasizes that this is his personal view point many times in the interview. His words hold weight because of his fame and also his integrity and willingness to follow the rules that he has shown for his entire career and even now.

Also, to assume that this interview is brought on because he feels he's falling behind is not really the case.
He's just scored close to the highest scores ever. -And he holds the record for the highest ever SP as well. Other than Nathan, there is no skater who can come close in terms of scores.
And as for challenging quads, he is also at the forefront, jumping the Loop which no other skater has successfully landed yet this season other than him (correct me if I'm wrong?) and the 4T-eu-3F, and the 3A-4T which had also never been successfully attempted until now. He challenges the technical side of the sport as much or more than any other top skater.

What I take away from this interview is a look into what goes through the mind of a Top Skater when they want to be the absolute best. They have to consider at all times what the trends are, what their own strengths are and whether or not the judges will acknowledge their strengths.
Should a skater, say, blindly follow what seems to be the judging trend of the season? Or stand on their strengths and polish those until they can't be ignored?
That's a balance that Hanyu is explaining in this interview, and the worries that come with each choice. If I do this, will the judges notice? If I don't will they penalize me? Do I give up what I think is important in my skating in order to please the judges?
Hanyu has always been very upfront about his uncertainties and doubts while competing. Even in his triumphant GP series of 2015-2016 after having scored a record high score at NHK, he shared his uncertainty that he would be able to ever surpass what he had done. It's one of the things I like about him.

As for the transitions, I really do think that Hanyu's transitions are one of the halmarks of his skating. Just listen to Ted comment on Yuzu during Skate Canada. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nafIO1UIe2Q and Ted Barton was one of the founders of the current judging system.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the interview. As always in a world this big, there's going to be differing opinions about any thing. And I don't entirely disagree with yours. -Yuzu could have just said, "I'm very happy with my score and my performance I will continue to work hard" and left it at that. But I'm personally very pleased we got something so interesting instead.
 
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skatergurl7

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 29, 2019
I think he will retire before the next Olympics, body can’t keep up physically compared to the younger ones and the programs are getting stale.
 

discode

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
He's just scored close to the highest scores ever. -And he holds the record for the highest ever SP as well. Other than Nathan, there is no skater who can come close in terms of scores.
And as for challenging quads, he is also at the forefront, jumping the Loop which no other skater has successfully landed yet this season other than him (correct me if I'm wrong?) and the 4T-eu-3F, and the 3A-4T which had also never been successfully attempted until now. He challenges the technical side of the sport as much or more than any other top skater.

Alex Krasnozhon landed a clean 4lo this year. Matteo Rizzo is working on it. Daniel Grassl hasn't done it clean this year, but pretty sure he has in the past. And OT, but while it's a rarer jump, but I'm not exactly sure why a 4lo is considered more rare than 4F for example. Seems more people focus on the 4T,4S and straight to the 4lz since it's worth the most.

As for what Hanyu said, it's interesting and he certainly earned the right to say what he wants, though I don't agree with it all. He's talking quite differently than he did after worlds as well. I guess he's going to focus on what he does well instead of just trying to land every jump in the world which is a smart thing to do. But I can't say I believe he actually changed things with SC though. High difficult jumps from big named skaters will continue to be rewarded with GOE even if they aren't landed all that well (he had a few, as has Nathan and I'm sure Shoma next week).
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Alex Krasnozhon landed a clean 4lo this year. Matteo Rizzo is working on it. Daniel Grassl hasn't done it clean this year, but pretty sure he has in the past. And OT, but while it's a rarer jump, but I'm not exactly sure why a 4lo is considered more rare than 4F for example. Seems more people focus on the 4T,4S and straight to the 4lz since it's worth the most.

As for what Hanyu said, it's interesting and he certainly earned the right to say what he wants, though I don't agree with it all. He's talking quite differently than he did after worlds as well. I guess he's going to focus on what he does well instead of just trying to land every jump in the world which is a smart thing to do. But I can't say I believe he actually changed things with SC though. High difficult jumps from big named skaters will continue to be rewarded with GOE even if they aren't landed all that well (he had a few, as has Nathan and I'm sure Shoma next week).

I too am unsure that any one skater can change a judging trend. -But they can try.
 

oatmella

陈巍
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Translation doesn’t seem clear, is he saying that some overly PR 4Lz are actually not lutz jumps? If so, there really are only so many skaters attempting 4Lz.
 
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