Interesting interview with Kiira Korpi about coaching and training | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Interesting interview with Kiira Korpi about coaching and training

el henry

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On the other hand, it first of all is not their business nor their culture(important! these days) and secondly, they're convinced they're correct and won't listen to anything suggesting otherwise. Let's remember Kiira herself had it pretty rough and herself had severe issues with eating disorders and also suffered several injuries due to malnutrition - that to me doesn't sound like someone who can be objective about these matters.

To the contrary, I find her voice to be one of the most important precisely because she has gone through so much.

And Kiira spoke in general terms about harmful trends in coaching, such as "humiliation". Harmful trends that every culture should reject:agree:
 

flanker

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To the contrary, I find her voice to be one of the most important precisely because she has gone through so much.

And Kiira spoke in general terms about harmful trends in coaching, such as "humiliation". Harmful trends that every culture should reject:agree:

I'm pretty convinced, that every culture is actually rejecting "harmful trends". Yet many cultures may disagree about what is considered as "harmful trends".
 

el henry

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I'm pretty convinced, that every culture is actually rejecting "harmful trends". Yet many cultures may disagree about what is considered as "harmful trends".

Folks from different cultures may disagree on certain aspects of coaching, absolutely.

But the harmful trends that Kiira identified can't be excused by "culture". I am not a proponent of relativism in that respect.

In particular, in my mind, I was referring to humiliation as a harmful trend. Some wrongs can't be excused by "culture", and humiliation is one of them.
 

flanker

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Folks from different cultures may disagree on certain aspects of coaching, absolutely.

But the harmful trends that Kiira identified can't be excused by "culture". I am not a proponent of relativism in that respect.

In particular, in my mind, I was referring to humiliation as a harmful trend. Some wrongs can't be excused by "culture", and humiliation is one of them.

Again, there will be very different opinions on what is humiliation or where the barrier that shouldn't be crossed lies. I doubt it is possible to talk this in details, it would require to sink into cultures, politics etc., and that is not allowed here.

But that is not as much of a problem, as the thing that I'm disagreeing with from the very beginning, which is that Kiira used Anna in a very wrong way assuming that everything she is fighting agains is present in her case, totally unballanced and evidently biased statements concerning different skaters (Zhneya, Alina) etc. If I would have been a father of a child who is succesful in the sport and on the day his/hers first international success somebody would come with the statment like she did about Anna, I would be absolutely negative about her. Because I would be the one whose main concern is my child (incl. health, happiness etc. and I would be very careful about whether everything is OK) and at any cost I wouldn't share this responsibility with some complete stranger who knows nothing but has the impudence to say things like this without any consulting with me, my child or the child's team and coach. That's wrong and for me there is absolutely no exclusion with good intentions.
 

anonymoose_au

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I'd be wary of saying that as long as the kid or their parents think it's fine, it's fine because a lot of the time abuse becomes normal to a person and that's the problem.

If you spent most of your life being belittled and pushed to extremes you wouldn't recognise that it's wrong.

Like not too long ago it was quite acceptable to beat your children and if someone said something they'd be told "It's none of your business, keep your nose out of it."

I'm not implying in any way that this is happening to any skater, but to say "The parents and kids have no issues with it" doesn't automatically mean nothing's wrong.
 

flanker

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And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Who from the outside, esp. from different country, different backgroud, and even without personal experience with the local circumstances has the right to just come and without anything just saying "you are doing it wrong". Trying to violently impose standards from one environment to another without anything doesn't make any good (esp. when nobody asks for it, but that's the main problem, when people feel the "higher right" to decide about others when nobody asked about it).

Just hear what Aliona said in the last interview, she is not innocent victim, she knows very precisely what she wants to achieve, no matter how strong Kiira or people who speak like her are pushing their agenda.
 

Decoder

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And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Who from the outside, esp. from different country, different backgroud, and even without personal experience with the local circumstances has the right to just come and without anything just saying "you are doing it wrong". Trying to violently impose standards from one environment to another without anything doesn't make any good (esp. when nobody asks for it, but that's the main problem, when people feel the "higher right" to decide about others when nobody asked about it).

Just hear what Aliona said in the last interview, she is not innocent victim, she knows very precisely what she wants to achieve, no matter how strong Kiira or people who speak like her are pushing their agenda.

100% agree!

I wrote a longer post, but then decided to drop it. I don't want those super-caring activists to ruin my appetite for this great season.
 

WeakAnkles

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And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Who from the outside, esp. from different country, different backgroud, and even without personal experience with the local circumstances has the right to just come and without anything just saying "you are doing it wrong". Trying to violently impose standards from one environment to another without anything doesn't make any good (esp. when nobody asks for it, but that's the main problem, when people feel the "higher right" to decide about others when nobody asked about it).

Just hear what Aliona said in the last interview, she is not innocent victim, she knows very precisely what she wants to achieve, no matter how strong Kiira or people who speak like her are pushing their agenda.

Then you really shouldn't be commenting on any skater except those from your own country, no? Wouldn't that be "imposing standards from one environment to another"?

Sorry but I take a different view. Some things are just plain wrong, no matter what environment they happen in. And maybe because I lived through the AIDS crisis, I do believe that Silence=Death. When you do nothing, nothing changes. When you say nothing, you are giving tacit approval to what is just plain wrong.
 

Shayuki

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Sorry but I take a different view. Some things are just plain wrong, no matter what environment they happen in. And maybe because I lived through the AIDS crisis, I do believe that Silence=Death. When you do nothing, nothing changes. When you say nothing, you are giving tacit approval to what is just plain wrong.
What things exactly are "just plain wrong", though? Things that Kiira Korpi has knowledge of, that is. Not just speculation.

Kiira Korpi as she retired, said: "Every time I started training, I got injured". That's her experience of training. However, not everyone trains like that. Of the significant coaches she only has experience of training under Rafael Arutyunyan. And certainly, Rafael has his methods which she might not agree with. But what exactly does she know about Team Tutberidze?
 

flanker

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Then you really shouldn't be commenting on any skater except those from your own country, no? Wouldn't that be "imposing standards from one environment to another"?

Sorry but I take a different view. Some things are just plain wrong, no matter what environment they happen in. And maybe because I lived through the AIDS crisis, I do believe that Silence=Death. When you do nothing, nothing changes. When you say nothing, you are giving tacit approval to what is just plain wrong.

She, just like anybody else, does have no right to blame anybody of doing wrong when she has zero knowledge about there is something done wrong. There is nothing complicated on it. Even when the narrative sometimes says "they are wrong but they live in it too long to know they are wrong. But we are always right and we don't have to provide anything about being right. We have moral high ground."

Kiira has no moral high ground. She is just one person, just like me, you or mother of Anna Shcherbakova, who at least is the mother responsible for her daughter and has all the info from the first hand, not from some friend of a friend's friend or "and we all know that".

All in all, she has no true power to change anything by force at least in other countries (fortunately), so the only thing how she would have the chance, so if she truly has good intentions, than she has to gain the trust of those whose interests she claims to be defending. And this is the absolutely worst way how to gain it, starting to blame everybody.
 

Lana05

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If she's REALLY concerned and not just jealous then why she didn't say anything abiut Gracy and Gaby and how their coaches abused them that they got a depression and eating desorders if it's "a global problem"? Before she spoke ONLY about Russian ladies and how difficult for them skating is even through she NEVER coached there. She had problems under Canadian coaching too, why she doesn't tell us all about them to warn?
 

[email protected]

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If she's REALLY concerned and not just jealous then why she didn't say anything abiut Gracy and Gaby and how their coaches abused them that they got a depression and eating desorders if it's "a global problem"? Before she spoke ONLY about Russian ladies and how difficult for them skating is even through she NEVER coached there. She had problems under Canadian coaching too, why she doesn't tell us all about them to warn?

To be objective, she said a few words about Finland. But who cares about Finland in figure skating? If they do abuse children there let's close their Fed for a while until they straighten up things. I don't think it will affect any podium this season. Jenni SAARINEN 4th place at the Cup of Finland with 181.20 is the maximum they can get.

But she originally specifically picked on Anna Scherbakova right after her win. And this is either a stupid mistake or a conscious decision. And if the latter is true no matter what "save the world" rhetoric she uses now she won't "hide donkey ears behind the hat".
 

el henry

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To be objective, she said a few words about Finland. But who cares about Finland in figure skating? If they do abuse children there let's close their Fed for a while until they straighten up things. I don't think it will affect any podium this season. Jenni SAARINEN 4th place at the Cup of Finland with 181.20 is the maximum they can get.

But she originally specifically picked on Anna Scherbakova right after her win. And this is either a stupid mistake or a conscious decision. And if the latter is true no matter what "save the world" rhetoric she uses now she won't "hide donkey ears behind the hat".

I would suspect Kiira Korpi cares a great deal about Finland. Her ideas are not discredited by discrediting Finnish ladies and their achievements; that, to me, is simply rude to the Finnish ladies.

Medals are not as important as raising healthy children are to me. Kiira had important things to say, and I am listening.

I for one support and am proud of people who want to "save the world". If Kiira is one of those, it is only a plus in my book.:yes:
 

WeakAnkles

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You are mixing two completely different things. When skater falls and messes program (or skates well), anybody can say that. Anybody can also say that according to results, programs etc. this skater is weak or strong, his team is preparing him well or not, etc. That's one thing. The other thing is speaking "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark", when you've never been there and have absolutely no knowledge to support your statment. She didn't provide any, you didn't provide any.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways. By your own logic, it would be perfectly fine to comment, the skater performed x, y, z and fell on a. Anything above and beyond that--even so much as saying the skater "messed up" or if they're "weak" or "strong" (culturally loaded terms if I have ever heard any) or if they were "prepared" or not--would be imposing your cultural standards on something that by your own admission, is none of your business.

ETA: I think what all this REALLY means is that it is pretty near impossible to say much of anything beyond a bald statement of facts without cultural influences pervading not only what is said but how it is said.

For the record, the ONLY thing I said about skaters was that Tara Lipinski required hip surgery at age 18, something that is extremely unusual among 18 year olds the world over. And that these girls are canaries in a coal mine. Because they are. And that transcends where they come from. Technically, bravo. It's an impressive thing to land quads and 3As. But the fact--and it is a fact--is that it is not known what the long term impact of all these incredibly physically demanding feats will be on their bodies. And in no way should anyone anywhere apologize for raising that very legitimate concern.
 

flanker

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Sorry but you can't have it both ways. By your own logic, it would be perfectly fine to comment, the skater performed x, y, z and fell on a. Anything above and beyond that--even so much as saying the skater "messed up" or if they're "weak" or "strong" (culturally loaded terms if I have ever heard any) or if they were "prepared" or not--would be imposing your cultural standards on something that by your own admission, is none of your business.

For the record, the ONLY thing I said about skaters was that Tara Lipinski required hip surgery at age 18, something that is extremely unusual among 18 year olds the world over.

You've probably missed this: "When skater falls and messes program (or skates well), anybody can say that". So that's not true that according to me you can't say that as "Anything above and beyond that would be imposing your cultural standards". I've explicitely said the opposite.

And why it is so? Points, scores and performances are international, there is one set of the rules that everybody must obey and one set of score that says who was strong and who wasn't by his results. There is nothing that would be conditioned culturally when saying that United States, for instance, were crushed by OAR in the match on 17th february 2018 at Olympic Games in Peyongchang. Because that's how the sport works, when one team beats the other 4:0, it was stronger team that defeated weaker. You can also easily say that the defence of the defeated team messed it up, wasn't able to hold the defending zone etc. That's all that describes the game, performance of the teams etc.
As well as there is nothing conditioned culturally when saying that figure skater Anna Sherbakova defeated her opponets at Skate America, because performed stronger program than her opponents, or that Karen Chen messed up her free skated and fell three times. According to rules, it is just so, the rules are valid no matter the culture etc.

The differences are, as I've already said, for instance in "opinions on what is humiliation or where the barrier that shouldn't be crossed lies". The differences can be seen in the debates here daily. E.g. once I've received an infraction for saying something that was considered "political", while in my country it would be completely absurd to consider it political. But if we are talking about things that should be universal, than I think that blaming (even just alluding) somebody of some wrongdoing without evidence (as Kiira did when made her comment about Anna) should be considered wrong universally.
 

flanker

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For the record, the ONLY thing I said about skaters was that Tara Lipinski required hip surgery at age 18, something that is extremely unusual among 18 year olds the world over. And that these girls are canaries in a coal mine. Because they are. And that transcends where they come from. Technically, bravo. It's an impressive thing to land quads and 3As. But the fact--and it is a fact--is that it is not known what the long term impact of all these incredibly physically demanding feats will be on their bodies. And in no way should anyone anywhere apologize for raising that very legitimate concern.

I see you updated your comment. "Raising concerns" is more like a fashion. That's not how it should be done. BTW Kiira was talking about psychological impact in the first place, not physical, and about coaching methods, by sharing her (bad) experience. But she didn't bother to find out, whether there is something similar, she proceeded to conclusion there is immediately. That's what's wrong not just due to presence of slandering, but due to counterproductive result of such action. If she would truly be interrested about ladies like Anna and co., than, in my view, nothing would be easier than this. Talk to her in some reasonable way, like:

"Hi, I'm former figure skater, in my competitive career I had some negative experience, e.g. XY, I'm interrested about how this works in your team. Did you have similar experience? If so, how did you feel about it? Did you witness something like that with others? If you would have been in such situation, what you think about it? Do you think it is OK or not? Did it somehow damage your self-confidence or did it actually help to you?"

And so on. On this, you would be able to make some conclusions. But raising vague concerrns about something you have zero info and experience is wrong.
 

WeakAnkles

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You've probably missed this: "When skater falls and messes program (or skates well), anybody can say that". So that's not true that according to me you can't say that as "Anything above and beyond that would be imposing your cultural standards". I've explicitely said the opposite.

And why it is so? Points, scores and performances are international, there is one set of the rules that everybody must obey and one set of score that says who was strong and who wasn't by his results. There is nothing that would be conditioned culturally when saying that United States, for instance, were crushed by OAR in the match on 17th february 2018 at Olympic Games in Peyongchang. Because that's how the sport works, when one team beats the other 4:0, it was stronger team that defeated weaker. You can also easily say that the defence of the defeated team messed it up, wasn't able to hold the defending zone etc. That's all that describes the game, performance of the teams etc.
As well as there is nothing conditioned culturally when saying that figure skater Anna Sherbakova defeated her opponets at Skate America, because performed stronger program than her opponents, or that Karen Chen messed up her free skated and fell three times. According to rules, it is just so, the rules are valid no matter the culture etc.

The differences are, as I've already said, for instance in "opinions on what is humiliation or where the barrier that shouldn't be crossed lies". The differences can be seen in the debates here daily. E.g. once I've received an infraction for saying something that was considered "political", while in my country it would be completely absurd to consider it political. But if we are talking about things that should be universal, than I think that blaming (even just alluding) somebody of some wrongdoing without evidence (as Kiira did when made her comment about Anna) should be considered wrong universally.


Again anything above a statement of FACT is going to be a value-laden minefield. That entire second paragraph is full of them. Just choosing the USA and OAR-- and who won or lost--is hardly the definition of a neutral statement. "Crushed," totally value laden. "Stronger" and "weaker," value laden. Actually about the only way you CAN be value neutral in that paragraph is to state: The score of the USA/OAR match on 17 Feb 2018 was X-Y. I could point out your total anti-American bias in the paragraph. I could point out that anything above and beyond a reiteration of the fact that two teams played on this date and had this score is not fact; it is value-laden (and in some cases like "crushed" value OVER-loaded) modifiers and culturally-influenced, because the values are themselves influenced by the culture using them as descriptors.

That's basic linguistics.
 
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