2019 Internationaux de France: Day 2 | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2019 Internationaux de France: Day 2

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the IJS scoring system somewhat discourages graceful exits from a spiral. The skater has to get that leg down and rush on to the next transition or scoring element.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Jeroen Prins work as the technical controller in this competition was definitely a highlight for me. Particlularily for two reasons:
1) the guy have no idea about what edges should have been in lutz and flip. Judging by the calls he probably mixed them up. Except multiple false edge calls (with many of them skaters being called first time in their career) the guy have no idea about how URs are determined either. I wonder did he even passed ISU judge exam properly? :rolleye:
If you don't beleive there was really something fishy going on - just check this very telling statistics http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1572808416/4af893dc/28435528.jpg

2) the guy's calls inconsistency. Despite seemingly random pattern of the calls - majority of false calls were being gathered withing skaters from one particular nation, while skaters from other particular nation were payed just cursory glance from the TP. It even looked like TP was being impartial and tried to manipulate scores in order to change podium places - of course making some minimal amount of calls to pushed skater for coverage - but of course it was all just my imagination :biggrin:

In the end I feel the comp was absolutely ruined as the result - since this guy was the main hero of it, people were discussing him the most. And what can be more boring than discussing tech calls instead of performances? Unfortunately people had no other choice -many of them arrived in Grenoble, payed money to organizers and ISU (and to this guy pocket as well) just to watch and root for Zagitova - and what they got in return? Why other show sellers such as Shoma are always getting fully opposite treatment from judges (who are willing to ignore even his downgraded jumps) despite him not being even OlyChamp, I wonder? :rolleye:
Ideally judges should be as not noticeable as possible - people shouldn't even know their names! Obvious (to even audience) mistakes should be called - and that's it. The way this guy want to make look ISU competitions - will make fs unwatchable. Spectators, athlethes, coaches - all of them wouldn't be thinking or even cared about performances they did/saw just now. All they would care about how many calls being made or missed sitting in the K&C - not quality of performance. And that'll turn fs into a farce :disagree:

About some personal impressions:

Mariah Bell - Hallelujah should be banned from figure skating.
Kaori Sakomoto - she did skate of her life in a free. Matrix is really good program for her - at last exciting program from Japanese ladies which is so rare that you can call it a miracle. Definitely was robbed and should be third judging by what imression she gave to the public. The guy in TP was against it though. Also giving her less PCS than Bell was demonstration of some twisted sense of humour from judges, I suppose?
Alina Zagitova - it was hard to watch her after she heard her scores both times. That spoiled any good impression I had from her otherwise not ideal but quite enjoyable skates. Still, what I noticed that she gained really luxurious air about her. She is joy to watch - she keeps eyes and attention easily - long before her skate even begin. Pure feminine charisma incarnated. While her SS is probably lacking - all her other components I feel is justified as they can get.
Alena Kostornaia - goddess on the ice :bow:
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Jeroen Prins work as the technical controller in this competition was definitely a highlight for me. Particlularily for two reasons:
1) the guy have no idea about what edges should have been in lutz and flip. Judging by the calls he probably mixed them up. Except multiple false edge calls (with many of them skaters being called first time in their career) the guy have no idea about how URs are determined either. I wonder did he even passed ISU judge exam properly? :rolleye:
If you don't beleive there was really something fishy going on - just check this very telling statistics http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1572808416/4af893dc/28435528.jpg

2) the guy's calls inconsistency. Despite seemingly random pattern of the calls - majority of false calls were being gathered withing skaters from one particular nation, while skaters from other particular nation were payed just cursory glance from the TP. It even looked like TP was being impartial and tried to manipulate scores in order to change podium places - of course making some minimal amount of calls to pushed skater for coverage - but of course it was all just my imagination :biggrin:

In the end I feel the comp was absolutely ruined as the result - since this guy was the main hero of it, people were discussing him the most. And what can be more boring than discussing tech calls instead of performances? Unfortunately people had no other choice -many of them arrived in Grenoble, payed money to organizers and ISU (and to this guy pocket as well) just to watch and root for Zagitova - and what they got in return? Why other show sellers such as Shoma are always getting fully opposite treatment from judges (who are willing to ignore even his downgraded jumps) despite him not being even OlyChamp, I wonder? :rolleye:
Ideally judges should be as not noticeable as possible - people shouldn't even know their names! Obvious (to even audience) mistakes should be called - and that's it. The way this guy want to make look ISU competitions - will make fs unwatchable. Spectators, athlethes, coaches - all of them wouldn't be thinking or even cared about performances they did/saw just now. All they would care about how many calls being made or missed sitting in the K&C - not quality of performance. And that'll turn fs into a farce :disagree:

About some personal impressions:

Mariah Bell - Hallelujah should be banned from figure skating.
Kaori Sakomoto - she did skate of her life in a free. Matrix is really good program for her - at last exciting program from Japanese ladies which is so rare that you can call it a miracle. Definitely was robbed and should be third judging by what imression she gave to the public. The guy in TP was against it though. Also giving her less PCS than Bell was demonstration of some twisted sense of humour from judges, I suppose?
Alina Zagitova - it was hard to watch her after she heard her scores both times. That spoiled any good impression I had from her otherwise not ideal but quite enjoyable skates. Still, what I noticed that she gained really luxurious air about her. She is joy to watch - she keeps eyes and attention easily - long before her skate even begin. Pure feminine charisma incarnated. While her SS is probably lacking - all her other components I feel is justified as they can get.
Alena Kostornaia - goddess on the ice :bow:

Firstly, with regards to percentage of clean jumps, perhaps the ice was bad. I've heard reports that there were puddles on the ice. IdF never seemed like a very well-maintained GP with its plastic medals.

Secondly, with regards to percentage of clean jumps, I do actually agree with a LOT of the UR calls. I agree that Kostornaia's 3A in the short wasn't UR, but her solo 3A in the free definitely was, so that evens out. Sakamoto's URs were called correctly. Zagitova's URs were called correctly (but I do dispute her SP Lze; Lz! at most) and the time deduction was fair because her music was about 2:53. Mariah Bell had a phantom 3F edge called, I agree, which by your conspiracy tendencies should have meant the judges were trying to gift Zagitova the silver. Perhaps, *shock horror, the judge wasn't biased and everyone really did skate that much worse at this event. Perhaps, even more shockingly, this was the first time judges actually cared about the large numbers of missed URs. Your favourite skaters still took the top two medals; I don't know why you're upset. Zagitova's components were VERY generous, given the performance she had.

Thirdly, Shoma's 3A fall that people keep complaining about...if you look at it carefully, he's actually rotated it, but he fell seriously badly that it looked forwards.

I didn't hear you complain when Trusova's 4S< fall wasn't called at Skate Canada.
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
2) the guy's calls inconsistency. Despite seemingly random pattern of the calls - majority of false calls were being gathered withing skaters from one particular nation, while skaters from other particular nation were payed just cursory glance from the TP.
The actual issue is that you tend to see "false calls" when calls are made against one particular nation.

The calls on Zagitova were all accurate. Her Lutz has been a problem for some time now, in particular.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Jeroen Prins work as the technical controller in this competition was definitely a highlight for me. Particlularily for two reasons:
1) the guy have no idea about what edges should have been in lutz and flip. Judging by the calls he probably mixed them up. Except multiple false edge calls (with many of them skaters being called first time in their career) the guy have no idea about how URs are determined either. I wonder did he even passed ISU judge exam properly? :rolleye:
If you don't beleive there was really something fishy going on - just check this very telling statistics http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1572808416/4af893dc/28435528.jpg

2) the guy's calls inconsistency. Despite seemingly random pattern of the calls - majority of false calls were being gathered withing skaters from one particular nation, while skaters from other particular nation were payed just cursory glance from the TP. It even looked like TP was being impartial and tried to manipulate scores in order to change podium places - of course making some minimal amount of calls to pushed skater for coverage - but of course it was all just my imagination :biggrin:

In the end I feel the comp was absolutely ruined as the result - since this guy was the main hero of it, people were discussing him the most. And what can be more boring than discussing tech calls instead of performances? Unfortunately people had no other choice -many of them arrived in Grenoble, payed money to organizers and ISU (and to this guy pocket as well) just to watch and root for Zagitova - and what they got in return? Why other show sellers such as Shoma are always getting fully opposite treatment from judges (who are willing to ignore even his downgraded jumps) despite him not being even OlyChamp, I wonder? :rolleye:
Ideally judges should be as not noticeable as possible - people shouldn't even know their names! Obvious (to even audience) mistakes should be called - and that's it. The way this guy want to make look ISU competitions - will make fs unwatchable. Spectators, athlethes, coaches - all of them wouldn't be thinking or even cared about performances they did/saw just now. All they would care about how many calls being made or missed sitting in the K&C - not quality of performance. And that'll turn fs into a farce :disagree:

About some personal impressions:

Mariah Bell - Hallelujah should be banned from figure skating.
Kaori Sakomoto - she did skate of her life in a free. Matrix is really good program for her - at last exciting program from Japanese ladies which is so rare that you can call it a miracle. Definitely was robbed and should be third judging by what imression she gave to the public. The guy in TP was against it though. Also giving her less PCS than Bell was demonstration of some twisted sense of humour from judges, I suppose?
Alina Zagitova - it was hard to watch her after she heard her scores both times. That spoiled any good impression I had from her otherwise not ideal but quite enjoyable skates. Still, what I noticed that she gained really luxurious air about her. She is joy to watch - she keeps eyes and attention easily - long before her skate even begin. Pure feminine charisma incarnated. While her SS is probably lacking - all her other components I feel is justified as they can get.
Alena Kostornaia - goddess on the ice :bow:

It’s the technical specialist who calls elements, not the controller. See rule 920. And two out of three technical panel members have to agree on the call, so it’s wrong to blame any one person, anyway. By the way - among other things, the TS is required to have been a former high level competitive skater and is required to be actively involved on a weekly basis in the relevant discipline. See Rule 905. Do you qualify? If so, maybe you should apply through your federation for a position, and maybe after years of service at local and national and if you’re lucky, international levels, you’ll make it to the ISU level. If you don’t qualify, maybe, just maybe, you should consider that perhaps they know a bit more about the calls they’re making than you do.

https://www.isu.org/synchronized-skating/rules/sys-regulations-rules/file
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
The actual issue is that you tend to see "false calls" when calls are made against one particular nation.

I hinted about Bell's false flat edge call, didn't I? Maybe it wasn't very clear - my fault, sorry.

It’s the technical specialist who calls elements, not the controller. See rule 920. And two out of three technical panel members have to agree on the call, so it’s wrong to blame any one person, anyway. By the way - among other things, the TS is required to have been a former high level competitive skater and is required to be actively involved on a weekly basis in the relevant discipline. See Rule 905. Do you qualify? If so, maybe you should apply through your federation for a position, and maybe after years of service at local and national and if you’re lucky, international levels, you’ll make it to the ISU level. If you don’t qualify, maybe, just maybe, you should consider that perhaps they know a bit more about the calls they’re making than you do.

https://www.isu.org/synchronized-skating/rules/sys-regulations-rules/file

Rules are formality. In practice it's hard to obey them by the book and keep the work fast and efficient. There is too little time available for TP to have luxury giving attention of all three members to the same thing at the same time. In practice it's often that they choose to divide roles permanently for the competition duration - for only one responsible for the calls, for example ;)
That said it's even more obvious if you followed Prins previous works as TC or TS and compare them with other two members history. Abnormal calls (especially edges) were given only in comps judged by Prins.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I hinted about Bell's false flat edge call, didn't I? Maybe it wasn't very clear - my fault, sorry.



Rules are formality. In practice it's hard to obey them by the book and keep the work fast and efficient. There is too little time available for TP to have luxury giving attention of all three members to the same thing at the same time. In practice it's often that they choose to divide roles permanently for the competition duration - for only one responsible for the calls, for example ;)
That said it's even more obvious if you followed Prins previous works as TC or TS and compare them with other two members history. Abnormal calls (especially edges) were given only in comps judged by Prins.


Show me your comparisons? You can't just say you've found a trend in his judging without showing it.

Also, were they really abnormal or is he just in general very strict?

Almost all the calls made in the ladies event at IDF were correct or maybe a bit too strict, the issues were there though. The skaters called did UR or have edge issues. To blatantly ignore that and simply refer to them as "abnormal" is misleading.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
... but of course it was all just my imagination.

My imagination beats yours. It is not the ISU, it's the Martians. They are shining an invisible laser at skaters knocking them off their edge and stopping their rotation short.

I have videos to prove it. :yes: This is Mars at the exact moment -- the EXACT MOMENT -- that Zatitova flubbed her Lutz combo!!! Can't you see it???

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/912/cpsprodpb/D379/production/_102673145_gettyimages-647269852.jpg
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
It’s the technical specialist who calls elements, not the controller. See rule 920. And two out of three technical panel members have to agree on the call, so it’s wrong to blame any one person, anyway. By the way - among other things, the TS is required to have been a former high level competitive skater and is required to be actively involved on a weekly basis in the relevant discipline. See Rule 905. Do you qualify? If so, maybe you should apply through your federation for a position, and maybe after years of service at local and national and if you’re lucky, international levels, you’ll make it to the ISU level. If you don’t qualify, maybe, just maybe, you should consider that perhaps they know a bit more about the calls they’re making than you do.

https://www.isu.org/synchronized-skating/rules/sys-regulations-rules/file

Ok, so TS should have been a forger high level competitive skater.
Please bring us Monika KUSTAROVA's results. Because i dont think she even has a wiki page. Did she ever compete internationally?

Afaik, Vanessa GUSMEROLI is the only person on that panel that is a high level competitive skater.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Ok, so TS should have been a forger high level competitive skater.
Please bring us Monika KUSTAROVA's results. Because i dont think she even has a wiki page. Did she ever compete internationally?

Afaik, Vanessa GUSMEROLI is the only person on that panel that is a high level competitive skater.

Lol

Apparently if someone isn't on wikipedia, they don't count... never heard that argument before.

You could Google her yourself you know.

I did find her history as a tech specialist, which she has been since 2010/11 season. Seems to me she is quite experienced in that respect.
https://skatingscores.com/official/svk_monika_kustarova/

I didn't find anything on any skating career, I assume she was in fact a skater, but I don't know exactly what "high level" actually means in the context of the rules.

The rules that Tavi linked to are for synchronised skating however, I've just noticed. So I'm a bit confused now
 

RoyThree

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Country
United-States
I'd swear that Steven Miller is posting on here based on these conspiracy theories. :laugh:
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I'd swear that Steven Miller is posting on here based on these conspiracy theories. :laugh:

There's quite a well known conspiracy theorist named Jim Fetzer, there isn't a theory too ridiculous for him and he will bend them to fit any possible rebuttal to keep it going
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
The calls on Zagitova were all accurate. Her Lutz has been a problem for some time now, in particular.

I don't think so. It was evaluated by professional judges in previous competitions too. I cannot imagine that they missed it on purpose if there was a problem. They evaluated her Lutz as wrong edge in this particular SP. In the next morning, she had her training and tried to do better Lutzes. In FS her Lutz improved compared to SP and the judges evaluated it as unclear edge. If didn't improved I don't think they evaluated on purpose as unclear, if it was on wrong edge. That will mean not fair judging to the other skaters. This people are professional and try the best they can.
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
I don't think so. It was evaluated by professional judges in previous competitions too. I cannot imagine that they missed it on purpose if there was a problem.
Zagitova's Lutz has had a progressively worsening edge for a while, one of a number of problems with it that started to become evident last season. It wasn't called last season, but that's hardly determinative; Medvedeva had a well-known flutz all through the period she was setting world records and winning everything, and it was seldom called until this season.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Zagitova's Lutz has had a progressively worsening edge for a while, one of a number of problems with it that started to become evident last season.

Should have been called then. I don't think the judges was seeing that and overlooking it. Its not fair for the other skaters and I don't believe they follow such logic to oversee some skaters.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Well, maybe the user implied that it got worse in say WC19. And if my memory doesn't fail me, basically no one got called there. There was exactly 1 edge call (and no !s given at all) in the entire ladies competition and very few underrotations when it came to top 10. Doesn't mean everyone had perfect technique by then though. And obviously, it's bad for the sport. Skaters should always be given scores that reflect their strengths and mistakes and show them what to work on.
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
Should have been called then. I don't think the judges was seeing that and overlooking it. Its not fair for the other skaters and I don't believe they follow such logic to oversee some skaters.
I literally just cited Medvedeva as an example that shows otherwise. She has a flutz. She has always had a flutz. Everyone knows she has a flutz. Until this season, it was hardly ever called.

This was also true of Osmond, though she was more likely to get a "!" than Medvedeva was.

Lutz calling, in general, was kind of out of vogue in recent seasons, but seems to be making a comeback. Last season the tech panels really hated flip edges.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Well, maybe the user implied that it got worse in say WC19. And if my memory doesn't fail me, basically no one got called there. There was exactly 1 edge call (and no !s given at all) in the entire ladies competition and very few underrotations when it came to top 10. Doesn't mean everyone had perfect technique by then though. And obviously, it's bad for the sport. Skaters should always be given scores that reflect their strengths and mistakes and show them what to work on.

After worlds Zagitova didn't compete so the season ended there for her. I guess the skaters tried their best at worlds and the technical panel didn't saw something that will cause them to call wrong/unclear edges. The few that where called they had problems and the technical panel evaluated them accordingly.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Should have been called then. I don't think the judges was seeing that and overlooking it. Its not fair for the other skaters and I don't believe they follow such logic to oversee some skaters.

Ahem... Medvedeva's flutz was ignored for a long time.

You even snipped the part (mentioning the flutz) of someone's post you were quoting so you didn't have to acknowledge or respond to it.

Satoko Miyahara's chronic UR issues were also blatantly ignored for a long time too.

So why do you completely reject the fact that Alina has had her edge issues ignored too?
 
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