Need advice on what to do with "gliding" leg in toe loop jump. | Golden Skate

Need advice on what to do with "gliding" leg in toe loop jump.

Tesuji

Spectator
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Need advice on what to do with "gliding" leg in toe loop jump.

Currently my biggest struggle is proper air position/take off, where I feel like I'm jumping at a really awkward position but somehow still achieving a full rotation. In all the videos of toe loop I've seen on youtube, once the toe pick hits, the other foot glides a bit then takes off toe first, with the heel leaving the ice last. How do I do this? Where do I place my body weight? How much do I pre-rotate? Does the right foot naturally swing counter clockwise or do you have to "force it" to swing? My arms start at like 12 and 3 o'clock, and eventually form a circle near my center-left (is this correct?). I'm also curious how to achieve a good air position with my left leg slightly crossed over my right leg, but my friend tells me I will naturally achieve this if I have the correct take off.
 

Elija

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Can you link one of the videos you’re talking about? I don’t understand what you mean by taking off with the heel last.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Currently my biggest struggle is proper air position/take off, where I feel like I'm jumping at a really awkward position but somehow still achieving a full rotation. In all the videos of toe loop I've seen on youtube, once the toe pick hits, the other foot glides a bit then takes off toe first, with the heel leaving the ice last. How do I do this? Where do I place my body weight? How much do I pre-rotate? Does the right foot naturally swing counter clockwise or do you have to "force it" to swing? My arms start at like 12 and 3 o'clock, and eventually form a circle near my center-left (is this correct?). I'm also curious how to achieve a good air position with my left leg slightly crossed over my right leg, but my friend tells me I will naturally achieve this if I have the correct take off.

First of all, do you have a coach? If not, please get one, a well-trained coach can teach you these things, and proper technique.

Please don't attempt jumps like this w/o proper coaching, you can injure yourself.
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
A note of caution: there are two camps when it comes to toe loop technique. The two camps have slightly contrary technique. If you randomly ask on the internet, you won't know which is which, and you will get confused.

My advice is, get a coach you trust and learn his/her toe loop technique.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
A note of caution: there are two camps when it comes to toe loop technique. The two camps have slightly contrary technique.

Just curious, how exactly do these two techniques differ? Asking because 1. toeloops are one of my weaker jumps (my toe gets much less height or distance than my flip or lutz) and 2. I've gone through a couple of coach changes in the past few years, so I wonder if it has something to do with me incorporating a mixture of coaching cues that happen to be mutually incompatible...
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Just curious, how exactly do these two techniques differ? Asking because 1. toeloops are one of my weaker jumps (my toe gets much less height or distance than my flip or lutz) and 2. I've gone through a couple of coach changes in the past few years, so I wonder if it has something to do with me incorporating a mixture of coaching cues that happen to be mutually incompatible...

Having gone through many coaches in my skating lifetime, myself, I totally understand the "multiple coaches = confusing" situation.

That said, I'm not expert, but this is what I understand from my current coach.

One school of thought is that you pick into the ice and use the pick to draw your skating foot round and through. The main driving force of the jump comes from lift-off power from the picking leg, as well as kicking up with the knee. This becomes very similar to a toe Axel, but, just don't make it so blatant. It's also much easier to teach a toe loop this way.

The other school of thought is that the pick is assisting, not the main driver. (Sometimes they refer to it as a "toe-assist" jump.) Instead, the main driver of the jump comes from pressing and then pushing up from the BO edge. The toe pick action is to help with weight transfer during the jump, and at best supply a little extra spring. Proponents of this school claim it is less stressful and injurious on the picking foot, because you're using your big muscle groups to power the jump, instead of stressing the picking ankle. I also think it looks more aesthetically pleasing and technically sound.

I never quite knew what school my previous coaches were. But my current coach is firmly in the toe-assist school.
 

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~
On the Ice
Joined
May 27, 2018
Seconding other folks on here - if you don't already have a coach, please get one, even if it's just taking group lessons instead of private lessons! Teaching yourself jumps is dangerous and very hard to do and will likely result in a lot of incorrect technique. If you do have a coach, perhaps you could ask to film your coach in slow-motion as they demonstrate the jump. I've found this very helpful myself, especially with the toeloop. I don't know if you're an adult or not, but a lot of adult skaters do toe-waltzes, which are not the 'correct' way to do a toeloop. Having a coach watch you will help ensure that you get the proper technique instilled in you before you develop any bad habits. Assuming you already have a coach and just want some extra material to watch in between lessons, this video is pretty thorough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXR9rVtISE
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Thanks cl2 for the helpful information!

When you say that the second technique looks more aesthetically pleasing, does that mean you can usually tell which of the two schools of thought a skater is from just by watching? I'd be interested to know who among the current skaters is using which technique for their quad toes (and if there's any correlation with their fall/pop/repetitive strain injury rate...)
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Thanks cl2 for the helpful information!

When you say that the second technique looks more aesthetically pleasing, does that mean you can usually tell which of the two schools of thought a skater is from just by watching? I'd be interested to know who among the current skaters is using which technique for their quad toes (and if there's any correlation with their fall/pop/repetitive strain injury rate...)

I think it's possible to identify some telltale traits from either technique, but of course I can't tell if the skater does it because he/she is consciously embodying that school of thought or not. For all you know, skaters may not even care about such esoteric details, all they want is just to land their jumps!

Here are two contrasting examples.

Medvedeva, bless her heart, does the push-off-from-toe-pick technique, especially during her time with Eteri. If you watch the slo-mo, she looks like she presses down into her RBO edge as she picks, and then springs off directly from the left foot pick while her right knee kicks up before straightening for the rotation.
https://youtu.be/rGljbivDe-E

Hanyu, on the other hand, pushes UP off his RBO edge as he reaches to pick, then springs off BOTH legs. This means both legs are straight the moment he is airborne.
https://youtu.be/JJ0dPX6ppwY
It looks so much smoother, more biomechanically efficient, effortless, elegant, powerful. You get the point... I'll stop with the raving now.

I hope Medvedeva learns a toe loop or two from Hanyu. :biggrin:
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
I think it's possible to identify some telltale traits from either technique, but of course I can't tell if the skater does it because he/she is consciously embodying that school of thought or not. For all you know, skaters may not even care about such esoteric details, all they want is just to land their jumps!

Here are two contrasting examples.

Medvedeva, bless her heart, does the push-off-from-toe-pick technique, especially during her time with Eteri. If you watch the slo-mo, she looks like she presses down into her RBO edge as she picks, and then springs off directly from the left foot pick while her right knee kicks up before straightening for the rotation.
https://youtu.be/rGljbivDe-E

Hanyu, on the other hand, pushes UP off his RBO edge as he reaches to pick, then springs off BOTH legs. This means both legs are straight the moment he is airborne.
https://youtu.be/JJ0dPX6ppwY
It looks so much smoother, more biomechanically efficient, effortless, elegant, powerful. You get the point... I'll stop with the raving now.

I hope Medvedeva learns a toe loop or two from Hanyu. :biggrin:

What I don't understand is how these flawed(?) techniques are actually considered easier. (Or are they?) If I tried to do a toe loop like Medvedeva's, I'd have to consciously hold down my right foot and probably end up twisting my legs into a pretzel and falling.

Then again, I'm a stickler for proper technique, but it's not like I knew every exact detail of proper technique when I first learned toe loops. I just figured jump=UP.
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
What I don't understand is how these flawed(?) techniques are actually considered easier. (Or are they?) If I tried to do a toe loop like Medvedeva's, I'd have to consciously hold down my right foot and probably end up twisting my legs into a pretzel and falling.

Then again, I'm a stickler for proper technique, but it's not like I knew every exact detail of proper technique when I first learned toe loops. I just figured jump=UP.

I wouldn't call either of those techniques flawed. They both satisfy the ISU definition of a toe loop, and apparently both are viable at the elite level. It's not like how a flutz is wrong technique because it violates the definition of a Lutz.

I agree, though, that toe loops used to boggle my mind and entangle my feet.
 

Vicki7

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Toe loops are currently scaring me silly. My coach has me pick in with my left foot, then jump up instantly, with my gliding leg coming around once I'm airborne.
Previous to this I'd been hesitant and was jumping around off my left toe, not up, so think I was toe waltzing. This new way is scary!
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Toe loops are currently scaring me silly. My coach has me pick in with my left foot, then jump up instantly, with my gliding leg coming around once I'm airborne.
Previous to this I'd been hesitant and was jumping around off my left toe, not up, so think I was toe waltzing. This new way is scary!

And exercise my coach has me do is to reach the left foot back as if I'm going to pick, and then rise from the RBO edge into a twizzle. That's the rising feeling I should feel in the toe loop.
 

WednesdayMarch

Nicer When Fed
Medalist
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Country
United-Kingdom
Toe loops are currently scaring me silly. My coach has me pick in with my left foot, then jump up instantly, with my gliding leg coming around once I'm airborne.
Previous to this I'd been hesitant and was jumping around off my left toe, not up, so think I was toe waltzing. This new way is scary!

He's almost certainly doing that to stop you toe waltzing. There's method in that scary stuff.
 

Tesuji

Spectator
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
This is an example of a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXR9rVtISE. What I mean by taking off with the heel last is that in all the videos I've watched for toe loop (whether it be tutorial or competitive), I've noticed that the right foot leaves the ground first with the toe leaving first and the heel leaving last (kinda like kicking a soccer ball but less dramatic)
 

Elija

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Interesting, never heard it described quite like that. I think you need to get your coach to show you though. Watching videos might be helpful if you’re trying to improve an element you can already do, but it’s not a good way to learn something new. You’ll most likely learn bad technique and have no one to correct you.
 
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