2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

wintersmith · Dec 26, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I feel like I should just start writing biased articles analyzing tech calls that are made specifically to pander to those who love the most popular/buzz worthy skaters, and make money off all the site traffic. It would be so easy and one could make a killing because, instead of considering balanced analysis, people are chomping at the bit to read articles/stats that reinforce their views especially ones that are presented/formatted in such a way to make it seem like they have actual scientific basis (see above). And once I’ve collected a decent sum for all the inevitable frenzy of traffic/retweets/etc., be like “Just kidding... I actually think the judging wasn’t that bad... thanks for all the hits!” It’d be manipulative but rather lucrative too.

Seems like that the author will benefit this way from an article such as the one they posted, regardless of the litany of variables they are neglecting to mention, and overwhelming bias ... which is worse than many judges whom people condemn for their bias. And since they’re making coin off of it... good for them... I guess?!

You gave me a business idea. I sell mugs online - how about I make some "Yuzu is the true GOAT" or "OVERSCORED" mugs, and then post the link in those twitter nests. Then when they get to the shop they have the option to change it to Nathan is the true GOAT.

It's borderline immoral. :laugh:

Merry Christmas!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 26, 2019

wintersmith said:
You gave me a business idea. I sell mugs online - how about I make some "Yuzu is the true GOAT" or "OVERSCORED" mugs, and then post the link in those twitter nests. Then when they get to the shop they have the option to change it to Nathan is the true GOAT.

It's borderline immoral.

Merry Christmas!

To be fair “Unfair Judgment” looks a lot cuter on a Christmas sweater or mug than a makeshift sign. :laugh:

Man, we should make “Call Pre-Rotation!”/“GOE not high enough”/“IceScope & Legacy” T-shirts.... we would make a killing.

Elucidus · Jan 26, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfoOEv8E98
just leaving it here

P.S.: for those who likes to check everything by themselves - here is 60fps fancam videos from alternative (top down point of view) camera angle of Graz ladies finalists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chnr9NnMoLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR47gc2yPAg

lzxnl · Jan 27, 2020

Elucidus said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfoOEv8E98
just leaving it here

P.S.: for those who likes to check everything by themselves - here is 60fps fancam videos from alternative (top down point of view) camera angle of Graz ladies finalists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chnr9NnMoLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR47gc2yPAg

I agree with the points made in that video. I would also like to add the lutz. edges, however. Put in five flat lutz edges for Anna and see what happens.

WeakAnkles · Jan 27, 2020

I lost a TON of respect for Judy Blumberg this week. A TON.

auser · Jan 27, 2020

WeakAnkles said:
I lost a TON of respect for Judy Blumberg this week. A TON.

For what it is worth, I did not find her ice dance tv commentary very enlightening back in the day before her tech specialist/judging days. She would talk about the emotion of a program. Unlike Tanith and Charlie White who commentated about the technical rigors of the ID elements this weekend. Maybe I am being unfair, but I learned more about ID from reading Doris' and your posts than Judy's vague commentary.

Yuzuruu · Jan 27, 2020

Elucidus said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfoOEv8E98
just leaving it here

P.S.: for those who likes to check everything by themselves - here is 60fps fancam videos from alternative (top down point of view) camera angle of Graz ladies finalists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chnr9NnMoLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR47gc2yPAg

A jump can be downgraded if it is missing rotation of 1/2 revolution or more or when it has a clear forward take-off as well. It's in the ISU Technical Rulebook. It does not say that UR or downgrade is determined only on the basis of the landing.
And Shcherbakova obviously cheats her take-off, I would assume that's why she got a carrot. Because she is lacking rotation.

icetug · Jan 27, 2020

Yuzuruu said:
A jump can be downgraded if it is missing rotation of 1/2 revolution or more or when it has a clear forward take-off as well. It's in the ISU Technical Rulebook. It does not say that UR or downgrade is determined only on the basis of the landing.
And Shcherbakova obviously cheats her take-off, I would assume that's why she got a carrot. Because she is lacking rotation.

Just leave here the quotation from the ISU Technical Panel Handbook: A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. So you are absolutely right: Shcherbakova's Lz was downgraded according to this rule.

lzxnl · Jan 27, 2020

icetug said:
Just leave here the quotation from the ISU Technical Panel Handbook: A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. So you are absolutely right: Shcherbakova's Lz was downgraded according to this rule.

I doubt. They haven't downgraded her other lutzes, which all take off the same way. Judges don't care about this forward takeoff.

Annayelly · Jan 27, 2020

lzxnl said:
I doubt. They haven't downgraded her other lutzes, which all take off the same way. Judges don't care about this forward takeoff.

Well that means she got away this time. However if anyone wants to defend her on the downgrade and under rotation, they can always go to the rule book and tell how she got the calls.

Yuzuruu · Jan 27, 2020

lzxnl said:
I doubt. They haven't downgraded her other lutzes, which all take off the same way. Judges don't care about this forward takeoff.

But she did have < calls in the past that some called 'unfair' because they seemed fine on the landing which could suggest that judges do care about it.
Also the judges have to assess jumps on the basis of normal speed video, they don't have te courtesy of slowing down, therefore I presume it is possible that they sometimes see the forward take-off in a normal speed and sometimes they don't, and that results in inconsistent judging.

pete · Jan 27, 2020

Elucidus said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfoOEv8E98
just leaving it here

P.S.: for those who likes to check everything by themselves - here is 60fps fancam videos from alternative (top down point of view) camera angle of Graz ladies finalists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chnr9NnMoLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR47gc2yPAg

The German commentator said during the mens event that some quads got an underrotation call due to prerotation. I think he said it about Daniel Grassl and Dmitri Aliev if I remember correctly. So maybe that's why Anna got those calls.

SkateSkates · Jan 27, 2020

That video is incredibly biased. It shows Anna’s landing once the full weight is on the blade whereas is pauses while Aliona’s toe pick has just touched down/is about to touch down. It’s not comparing the same thing and has a clear agenda.

Last event: Anna had uncalled URs/edges, Aliona was robbed. This event: Aliona had an uncalled UR, Anna’s UR was unfair, Anna was robbed. The difference in both cases was about 2-3 points, very close. Maybe we should accept the fact that both events were close and they were head and shoulders ahead of the rest? This is a great rivalry of technical and artistic prowess that will only push both to keep improving.

lzxnl · Jan 27, 2020

SkateSkates said:
That video is incredibly biased. It shows Anna’s landing once the full weight is on the blade whereas is pauses while Aliona’s toe pick has just touched down/is about to touch down. It’s not comparing the same thing and has a clear agenda.

Last event: Anna had uncalled URs/edges, Aliona was robbed. This event: Aliona had an uncalled UR, Anna’s UR was unfair, Anna was robbed. The difference in both cases was about 2-3 points, very close. Maybe we should accept the fact that both events were close and they were head and shoulders ahead of the rest? This is a great rivalry of technical and artistic prowess that will only push both to keep improving.

I respectfully disagree. Alyona was robbed, because of all those uncalled lutz edges. Anna has pretty much never jumped a deep outside edge lutz.

For the sake of the main competition to Eteri's skaters (probs just Rika), I hope URs and edges are all called.

Globetrotter · Jan 27, 2020

lzxnl said:
I respectfully disagree. Alyona was robbed, because of all those uncalled lutz edges. Anna has pretty much never jumped a deep outside edge lutz.

For the sake of the main competition to Eteri's skaters (probs just Rika), I hope URs and edges are all called.

I will prefer to say that for clearing up any doubts, may judging be uber strict and consistently applied. We need more Shin Amano rather than Vanessa Gusmerolli. That way, the only way to get good tech scores will be to ensure adequacy of edges and rotations are beyond doubt.

As for PCS, I really don’t know. Too little variation in the components. I will lay this straight despite the risk of backlash. In Euros, Anna outperformed and outinterpreted Aliona in both SP and LP. She ought to get higher PE and IN. Sasha clearly didn’t have great PE and IN and Aliona has visibly became so mechanically focused on the elements she lost her performance (just see RusNats and Euros vs Finlandia or GP NHK). Yet both Sasha and especially Aliona have visibly stronger SS than Anna. I would have Aliona as high 8s, low 9s in SS and TR, low 8s in CO, PE and IN; Anna as mid to high 7s in SS, mid 8s in TR, low 8s in CO and low 9s in PE and IN. Sasha to me is mid 8s in SS and TR, low 8 in CO and mid to low 7s in PE and low 7 in IN. The PCS scoring really didn't reflect what was observed which is a shame.

halulupu · Feb 1, 2020

Well amano didn call any lutz of anna at europeans

Elucidus · Feb 6, 2020

Missed URs of top ladies in 4CC SP:

https://youtu.be/wFUrJGtDm-0?t=256
https://ibb.co/6Y608hy
https://ibb.co/SQtQQRb (other angle)
Rika Kihira's 3A<

https://youtu.be/ZnqjOeBir3c?t=267
https://ibb.co/SK9VMWd
Young You's 3A<

https://youtu.be/dbkYpCI5Jyk?t=11893
https://ibb.co/RpZG814
Kaori Sakamoto's 3Lo<

https://youtu.be/dbkYpCI5Jyk?t=11494
https://ibb.co/j67t2Ry
Wakaba Higuchi's 3Lz+3T<

Their clean protocols: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/fc2020/

P.S.: if you are willing to argue that the frames I presented in screenshots are "yet in the air" - their next frames, when their blade (and not only the pick) enters the ice, - are still under too. And yes, I think it's hugely unfair both to Tennell who rotated all her jumps cleanly - and to those who got their UR calls (Chen for example). Considering that many of that missed URs were on jumps with bad landings as well - which any TP should look into by default - I hope such judging will raise at least some brows among ISU officials.

wintersmith · Feb 6, 2020

To my admittedly rather untrained eyes, it looks as all of these are within 1/4 allowed underrotation. Anyone got anything to add? I'd be interested.

Elucidus · Feb 6, 2020

wintersmith said:
To my admittedly rather untrained eyes, it looks as all of these are within 1/4 allowed underrotation. Anyone got anything to add? I'd be interested.

Good joke :thumbsup:

skatenewbie · Feb 6, 2020

Elucidus said:
Missed URs of top ladies in 4CC SP: .

Yes, a lot of URs are being ignored by the TP. You missed Amber Glenn 3T< (her 3Lo also borderline) and Yelim 3T< as well. For me Higuchi 3T is borderline so it could be called or not, the same as Bradie 3T also borderline.

2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

wintersmith

CanadianSkaterGuy

Elucidus

Match Penalty

lzxnl

WeakAnkles

auser

Yuzuruu

the silent assassin

icetug

lzxnl

Annayelly

Yuzuruu

the silent assassin

pete

SkateSkates

lzxnl

Globetrotter

halulupu

Elucidus

Match Penalty

wintersmith

Elucidus

Match Penalty

skatenewbie

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