2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Why is Yuzuru getting similar lutz GOEs to Scherbakova anyway?
She does have indeed. o_O I saw the protocols!!!
OMG! With her 4lz-3T combination she has 3.45 GOE. And he has 3.94 GOE for his quad lutz. If she deserves 3 plus GOE, he deserves 1000 000 GOE!
If everything was fair in this sport - First her jump should have been downdgraded to a triple because of her excessive prerotation. Second - the jump should have been penalized with -3 GOE due to poor take off. Third - her unclear edge should have been deducted as well.
There. :) That is much better and much more fair.
I do hope slow motion review to become a thing in figure skating - just like in tennis, diving and golf.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Resuming the GP: what is your opinion on the calling and judging? There have been quite some controversies, but has the general standard improved? Does the judiciary still need better technology support?
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
It still seems that the judging hasn't really improved. But GPF had pretty normal judging, no big mistakes that could have changed important rankings and not a lot of missed calls. The only problem is that I almost didn't see any edge calls, at least in ladies, despite the fact that there were some questionable ones. At least it was consistent and everyone was judged with similar leniency. Overall, I prefer to see strict calls for everyone even if it means a lower score and no broken records instead of huge score for elements that weren't really clean. The problem is that many do not like it as it affects their favorites even if the ranking stays the same. This hurts the sport a bit, no organization likes to see angry fans.
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
In real time? Nah, there isn't. What differs various lutzes between each other in eyes of common spectator is their height, distance and landing. And that is what should be reflected in scores first and foremost. Incomprehensible scores fluctuations due to invisible jump technicalities having zero impact on overall performance impressions isn't what is gonna increase fs popularity, believe me. In slo-mo? Yes, there is. But why care about slo-mo anyway? It should concern only tech specialists - not even judges since GOEs are not given based on slo-mo replays.


And why he shouldn't? There is nothing in GOEs criterias about prerotation :coffee:

There's not, but Yuzuru visibly rotates more in the air than Scherbakova. The jump looks cleaner as well because he gets off the ice earlier. It makes a visual difference. Same with Nathan Chen's 4Lz. Both of those are so much prettier than Scherbakova's.

To make it sound like I'm not bashing women, Trusova's 4T deserves all the GOEs when she lands them.

Interesting how you don't seem to mind the two footed lutzes (which isn't needed for a loop combo btw) or the horrible lutz edges.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
It still seems that the judging hasn't really improved. But GPF had pretty normal judging, no big mistakes that could have changed important rankings and not a lot of missed calls. The only problem is that I almost didn't see any edge calls, at least in ladies, despite the fact that there were some questionable ones. At least it was consistent and everyone was judged with similar leniency. Overall, I prefer to see strict calls for everyone even if it means a lower score and no broken records instead of huge score for elements that weren't really clean. The problem is that many do not like it as it affects their favorites even if the ranking stays the same. This hurts the sport a bit, no organization likes to see angry fans.

Actually I think a missed call on Anna’s 3Lz-3L, her foot hit the ice making it +combo and Aliona would have won the FS if called properly. Overall standings would remain.
 

halulupu

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
She does have indeed. o_O I saw the protocols!!!
OMG! With her 4lz-3T combination she has 3.45 GOE. And he has 3.94 GOE for his quad lutz. If she deserves 3 plus GOE, he deserves 1000 000 GOE!
If everything was fair in this sport - First her jump should have been downdgraded to a triple because of her excessive prerotation. Second - the jump should have been penalized with -3 GOE due to poor take off. Third - her unclear edge should have been deducted as well.
There. :) That is much better and much more fair.
I do hope slow motion review to become a thing in figure skating - just like in tennis, diving and golf.

yes she does preroate. but her quad is the most impressive ladies quad out there. so much speed and distance. and by the way ladies quads are still somethings special!
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
yes she does preroate. but her quad is the most impressive ladies quad out there. so much speed and distance. and by the way ladies quads are still somethings special!

So what? If you want full credit for them, do them properly.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
So what? If you want full credit for them, do them properly.
Exactly. We as figure skating fans should not support poor technique. Especially when this poor technique is winning gold medals.
My heart breaks for all the skaters with proper technique who have such a disadvantage. :'( At least in men's yesterday the three medals were won by people with a textbook technique. But what about in the ladies field? :/
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Isn't there a rule that cheated take off should be penalized with -2 and -3 GOE?

No, there is no rule that is worded in those terms.

"Poor take-off -2 to -3"

What is a "poor takeoff"? That is not explicitly defined in writing. There are numerous ways in which takeoff technique might be less than adequate. Blatant prerotation of the blade (or toepick in the case of flips and lutzes) with weight on the ice would probably qualify, assuming it's obvious to the judges in real time.

Beginning rotation while the blade is still in contact with the ice but the skater's weight has already begun the process of lifting up is normal technique for higher revolution jumps and would not require reduction. If you have to watch slow-motion video to determine whether the blade was still facing backward (or forward for axels) at the split second when the tip of the blade lost all contact with the ice, it's not considered an error requiring penalty.

I think there was also a rule that more than 180 degrees prerotation jump should be downgraded - from a quad to a triple, from a triple to double.

Yes, again, as mentioned above, according to the tech panel handbook,
"A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

A "clear forward takeoff" (or clear backward takeoff for an axel) would probably apply if the whole blade does a three turn or skid turn to be facing the opposite direction and take off from a forward edge (or back inside edge for an attempted axel) before leaving the ice, or if the whole body turns forward before picking in for a toe loop (toe axel), which is the most commonly prerotated jump.

Again, the guidelines specifically state that this needs to be evident to the tech panel in real time for them to make this call. They can review the video, but they have to decide whether the jump was prerotated at regular speed before they can go to slow motion to look for other errors.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But why care about slo-mo anyway?

I agree 100%. That is what depresses me the most about this sport. After every competition so-called "fans" can't wait to rush to You-Tube to post an endless barrage of stop-frames saying, "See, this clearly proves ..."

No, it doesn't prove a thing. It only makes everyone mad and serves as an invitation to insult skaters and other fans. (Well, it makes me mad, anyway. ;) )
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
There's not, but Yuzuru visibly rotates more in the air than Scherbakova. The jump looks cleaner as well because he gets off the ice earlier. It makes a visual difference. Same with Nathan Chen's 4Lz. Both of those are so much prettier than Scherbakova's.

To make it sound like I'm not bashing women, Trusova's 4T deserves all the GOEs when she lands them.

Interesting how you don't seem to mind the two footed lutzes (which isn't needed for a loop combo btw) or the horrible lutz edges.

Why are people comparing jumps of men and women? GOE is not a comparison it’s a mental checkbox where a judge qualitatively awards bullets based on a threshold of successful execution.

Scherbackova’s first quad lutz was stellar. It had harder entrance steps into it than Hanyu’s or Chen’s.

Also, to reiterate, nobody cares about excessive pre-rotation. It is not being taken into account to the extent that certain fans want it to, because the landing is way more important than the takeoff.

Regarding GOE, for me, Hanyu’s 4Z was a +3/+4, given the lack of creative steps or matching musical structure, and he was a bit forward on his toe on the landing. Chen’s was a +3 for me... a bit of a lean forward on the landing but was otherwise nicely done and had a spread eagle out of it (even though that does not raise GOE), although it looked borderline rotation and he might have been fortunate not getting a UR call.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Throughout my career I’ve been mad when the judges put me first after a bad skate. But I’m mad also when I skate well and get penalized. Judges have the slow motion and they can check.

You know what action I would like this to open? Judges consider landing to evaluate a jump, which is fine. But they should also consider the take-off. So many skaters rotate half a turn less just in the take-off. What is fair? And what is not?

Javier Fernandez
 

SNAKSuyun

did it spark joy?
On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Country
China
As we know, the two GPs that received strict judging (at least as far as edges are concerned) were IdF and CoC. After that, the calls went back to normal, with pretty much no edges being called in Rostelecom, NHK, and GPF. I'm anticipating no edge calls at Worlds either.

The Chinese forums claim it's due to the FFKKR appeal filed right after CoC, and it makes sense to me, at least chronologically speaking :think: but then the question is, should someone like Kaori, if she goes to Worlds, put her Lutz back in? If she does, would they call her but not, say, Anna?
 

randomfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Sorry to repeat myself, but what do you guys think on these two?

Bradie received a 3Lz-3T< in the SP. On the slow-mo the 3T seemed to be borderline 1/2 UR, thus worth a <<.

Alina's first 2A in the FS (the one she fell on) seemed borderline rotated, but she received a <.
 

euroskate

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Throughout my career I’ve been mad when the judges put me first after a bad skate. But I’m mad also when I skate well and get penalized. Judges have the slow motion and they can check.

You know what action I would like this to open? Judges consider landing to evaluate a jump, which is fine. But they should also consider the take-off. So many skaters rotate half a turn less just in the take-off. What is fair? And what is not?

Judges DO NOT HAVE SLOW MOTION

Only the tech Panel has
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019

??

Where in the protocols?

For much needed transparency and consistency in calling and judging, would it hurt to publicise the clips with the lines and vectors to make clear why this or that has been called as !, e, < or <<?

Again I say ISU should seriously upgrade its technology support, i.e. 4 high speed camera distributed over the rink, synchronised in following the skaters around. So the overall 'picture' is available in much higher 3D and temporal resolution compared to this one tech camera right of the desks.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Anyways, what ever did become of the Kogan memo, the one FFKKR mentioned after GPdeFrance?

Was it ever send to ISU and did ISU acknowledge its receipt?

I suppose any internal discussions of it are considered not for publication, unless it was an official complaint that had to be dealt with according to the statutes and appear in the official minutes.

So two GP rounds were called very strictly and then it went back to normal 'lenient' again? And apart from a few scares and angry faces, nobody got any the wiser as what to really address in their skating/skaters, imaginary technique problems or not?
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
??

Where in the protocols?

For much needed transparency and consistency in calling and judging, would it hurt to publicise the clips with the lines and vectors to make clear why this or that has been called as !, e, < or <<?

Again I say ISU should seriously upgrade its technology support, i.e. 4 high speed camera distributed over the rink, synchronised in following the skaters around. So the overall 'picture' is available in much higher 3D and temporal resolution compared to this one tech camera right of the desks.
Agree. And ISU should also strictly follow their own rule book about "cheated take off" and "poor take off". It is just not fair skaters with perfect technique to receive the same GOE as skaters with horiffic technique. Currently lutzes with 40 degrees of prerotation and lutzes with 270 of prerotation receive pretty much the same GOE.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Agree. And ISU should also strictly follow their own rule book about "cheated take off" and "poor take off". It is just not fair skaters with perfect technique to receive the same GOE as skaters with horiffic technique. Currently lutzes with 40 degrees of prerotation and lutzes with 270 of prerotation receive pretty much the same GOE.

They are following it. It's been explained many times the difference between a "cheated take off" and "pre-rotation".

Cheated take off = a skater placing their foot when in the opposite direction they are moving and taking off -- so a cheated toe loop (ccw) is the skater opening their hip and placing their left foot forward onto the ice before jumping (like Kimmie Meissner or Nam Nguyen have previously done).

Pre-rotation = the skater placing their foot on the ice pretty much in the same direction they are moving, but turning that foot/pick on the ice before becoming airborne. It is poorer technique but it is not the same thing as a cheated take-off that gets a downgrade.

Pre-rotation is not mentioned anywhere in the rule book. So it is an invalid argument to suggest a skater's BV on a jump should drop because of it. Is it a worse takeoff than a jump without PR? Yes, and the GOE should reflect that... but there are a dozen other aspects of a jump that are also taken into consideration, so even a PR jump can score higher than a jump without PR. A huge, effortless jump with preceding steps with some PR could score higher than a jump with NO PR that has zero steps, average height, etc.

It's like saying a skater who doesn't have both hands on the blade of their Biellmann shouldn't get the same GOE as someone who does -- it's not an actual rule, plus there are several other aspects of the spin that contribute to the GOE awarded to it.
 
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