2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

rlopen

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
This. Bell has definitely improved after seasons of stagnation but also got a little help from the judges/technical panel who were overly lenient to her but absurdly unfair to Alina. Bell's jumps are lower and with less displacement than Alina's, even if Bell mostly does them from crossovers and takes a long time to set them up while Alina uses very difficult transitions. Also Bell had the skate of her life, while Kaori Sakamoto and Wakaba Higuchi who are stronger skaters but not in top form right now made costly mistakes. In a normal world Bell would have placed fifth or lower in this field, so she should be happy with that bronze. As Scott says, she's older than Liza Tuktamysheva, who beats her both in terms of technical skills and career accomplishments. You can applaud her for trying, but a bronze in a field with weak competition for third place where better skaters make mistakes is her ceiling. But you also have to give Alina due credit for well-deserved silver. Fair is fair.

While I agree that Mariah should have gotten the bronze and (while I don’t like Alina’s skating) Alina was clearly the deserved silver medalist and is still better than almost all the ladies in the world except for maybe the 3A and then possibly Rika if Alina’s not skating well, I think you’re doing a great disservice to Mariah by calling it the “skate of her life.” Mariah’s been skating clean for a few events now. I wouldn’t say it’s the skate of her life but she’s starting to get rewarded for her consistency and upping the tech content. And I would say Kaori is a stronger skater but I don’t think Wakaba is a stronger skater than her anymore.

But anyway...Aliona has been blowing me away. Her 3A’s and her gorgeous artistry...she is truly the complete package. Everything you could want in a skater (I mean minus the quads but I know she’s working on that.)
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
It sounds like some posters are trying to insult Mariah for having success at a later age. How disappointing. If you’re a fan of skating you should be supportive of all skaters. Mariah beat Alina in the LP, so you should give credit where it it’s due.

I don't understand why pointing out in the first place that she's older (than Liza or anyone for that matter) is a thing.

She's worked very hard to improve and is at the moment skating the best she ever has at 23...what does it matter.

Carolina Kostner finally got an Olympic Medal in her late twenties, and good on her too!!
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Did I ever say I’m speaking for everyone?
You think people „whine“, I think people have a right to express their opinions, because you know... they might differ from yours and that doesn’t make their opinions „whining“.

No but whining makes it whining, which is what I see on this thread every single time you do not get exactly what you want out of a panel. Honestly no one cares if you think a caller should be investigated/loss their license etc. it’s like the boy who cried wolf at this point. It is said every single time over everything so it’s never going to be taken seriously if it ever should.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
No but whining makes it whining, which is what you guys do every single time you do not get exactly what you want out of a panel. Honestly no one cares if you think a caller should be investigated/loss their license etc. it’s like the boy who cried wolf at this point. You say it every single time over everything so it’s never going to be taken seriously if it ever should.

I'm pretty sure nussnacker never said he should be investigated...
I've been a bit too quick to assume some people feel that way when they don't though
 

IcyMathStats

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Country
United-States
While I agree that Mariah should have gotten the bronze and (while I don’t like Alina’s skating) Alina was clearly the deserved silver medalist and is still better than almost all the ladies in the world except for maybe the 3A and then possibly Rika if Alina’s not skating well, I think you’re doing a great disservice to Mariah by calling it the “skate of her life.” Mariah’s been skating clean for a few events now. I wouldn’t say it’s the skate of her life but she’s starting to get rewarded for her consistency and upping the tech content. And I would say Kaori is a stronger skater but I don’t think Wakaba is a stronger skater than her anymore.

But anyway...Aliona has been blowing me away. Her 3A’s and her gorgeous artistry...she is truly the complete package. Everything you could want in a skater (I mean minus the quads but I know she’s working on that.)

My purpose is to provide an objective assessment of the competitions, not to do any particular favors to any skater. I am trying to steer clear of biases. I wish that every skater, regardless of their nationality, achieves a degree of success that is commensurate with the efforts they invest into their training, and the (accurately evaluated) performance they deliver in competitions while abiding by basic ethical and sportsmanship norms. It was the first time Mariah B scored above 140 in the FS internationally, with a mostly clean skate (other than one visibly underrotated Lz that was called), no falls, shaky landings, and/or doubled jumps. Objectively, such a personal record for someone who is in their 6th or 7th season as a senior could easily qualify as the skate of their life. Can you think of a competition where she skated better? She certainly wasn't clean at Four Continents (fell on the Lo, doubled a Lz), or Worlds (where she also had problems with both Lz jumps and received negative GOEs on them) this year. In the previous two seasons she was routinely scoring in the 100-120 range in the FS, and in her senior debut she had no GP assignments. I am more than willing to be proven wrong, but you have to back up your statements by facts. And hopefully she will keep improving and maturing.

I agree with your assessment of Alyona K. As for the quads, I hope she will add them gradually without overexerting her body and exposing herself to injury risks.
 

Finley

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
No but whining makes it whining, which is what I see on this thread every single time you do not get exactly what you want out of a panel. Honestly no one cares if you think a caller should be investigated/loss their license etc. it’s like the boy who cried wolf at this point. It is said every single time over everything so it’s never going to be taken seriously if it ever should.

And whining about whining surely won't help anything. We all have an opinion and we are all allowed to express it and no-one, literally no-one, has to care about it one way or the other! Or even take it seriously.

No person here speaks for everyone. I know I care very much about certain opinions that seem of little interest to other posters. And everyone else is allowed to whine about that!
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
I don't usually mind Alina's PCS, like it or not we know she has that "Champion boost"

But I don't think it should have been that high in the FS, she had an almost fall and some messy landings on top of her usual hunched over posture, which for some reason her choreography seemed to only highlight more...lots of bending forward bizarrely.

Alyona was not only cleaner but absolutely exquisite in general...even made me hate Twilight a little less LOL

I think my frustration is more about Alena than anything else. As soon as she finished skating I said to myself “There it is and it cannot be denied. She is a new senior this year but there is no way they can use that as an excuse to hold her back after what she just put down on the ice. THIS is her breakthrough. Her moment. They are going to give her ALL the PCS! There is just NO way they can deny her now, not after this”.

Then when they didn’t......I had no words. I said “wow. This is really how it is going to be. They don’t know what to do with the 3A in relation to each other or the existing seniors so they are just going to keep their PCS around the same place and hold them down. Which Is going to hurt Alena more than anyone else. Why can’t they just SEE what is in front of them!”

So it is not so much that I think Mariah deserved so much more. It is that if you adjusted Alina’s PCS to be fair to the whole field then Mariah could have beaten her on TES and with relatively equal PCS - neither of the two deserved the highest PCS.
In general though I do consider Mariah’s bronze a decent result and a win for the US ladies. It is not the thing I’m really upset about here.
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
And whining about whining surely won't help anything. We all have an opinion and we are all allowed to express it and no-one, literally no-one, has to care about it one way or the other! Or even take it seriously.

No person here speaks for everyone. I know I care very much about certain opinions that seem of little interest to other posters. And everyone else is allowed to whine about that!

By whining I mean feeble or petulant complaining which is what some people are doing when they carry on literally every single time an Eteri skater receives a call. I disagree that this is what I’m doing by calling out this behavior. There are people that are complaining about every single call that was made this weekend as if NONE of them were deserved, not even some of Alina’s more egregious urs. And it always turns into some kind of conspiracy discussion even though these skaters are winning by sometimes 30 points. Like yes, the caller in Canada really wanted Sasha to lose so they said “omg I know, let’s give her StSq2 in the short program. Surely that’ll do it! Bwahahaha master plan complete!”

Yep it’s a discussion forum. So I’m allowed to state my opinion about anything I read on this thread as well. And if it’s that it’s silly and will never be taken seriously then it is. That’s an opinion too and about as valid as anything else I read on here.
 

starla16

Medalist
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
why is Mariah even in this thread ? coz she got 140 and almost beat Zagitova other than PCS ? :noshake:
let her repeat that in her next event and that should go the power ranking ladies
 

Nord Stream 2

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
I never believed she was going to beat Alina but in a world where things are fair and impartial I think it could have happened and would have been deserved. Don’t tell me the latter deserved the highest PCS in the event because she didn’t and to say that she didn’t deserve the calls she got is another joke. The jumps that were called were clearly ur, the edge issues there (should have probably been ! In the short but that is ONE call after how many generous ones for urs last year?) Even if they were harsher to Bell (! On lutz, they did call her ur in the free) I think the PCS she deserved should have had her over Alina in a perfect world, especially once you adjust Alina to be more fair to Kaori and Alena who were the top PCS skaters in this event.

Who and when will want to watch Mariah's programs a second time in a perfect world? What can you remember but her constant smile? Yes, she has dramatically increased this season. But not so much as to add at least a second 3+3. Perhaps she simply decided not shock us immediately. I expect a shock in Moscow. Maybe she'll jump over her head and take 145 in FS. It would be sensational. But I wouldn't bet $ 10 on it.
 

starla16

Medalist
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Who and when will want to watch Mariah's programs a second time in a perfect world? What can you remember but her constant smile? Yes, she has dramatically increased this season. But not so much as to add at least a second 3+3. Perhaps she simply decided not shock us immediately. I expect a shock in Moscow. Maybe she'll jump over her head and take 145 in FS. It would be sensational. But I wouldn't bet $ 10 on it.

well that was like Tennell at SA, Then the reality scores ticked in at SC.
I dont think its right that a US is inserted to russian ladies thread just to brag that she almost beat Zagitova on a bad day.
 

rlopen

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
My purpose is to provide an objective assessment of the competitions, not to do any particular favors to any skater. I am trying to steer clear of biases. I wish that every skater, regardless of their nationality, achieves a degree of success that is commensurate with the efforts they invest into their training, and the (accurately evaluated) performance they deliver in competitions while abiding by basic ethical and sportsmanship norms. It was the first time Mariah B scored above 140 in the FS internationally, with a mostly clean skate (other than one visibly underrotated Lz that was called), no falls, shaky landings, and/or doubled jumps. Objectively, such a personal record for someone who is in their 6th or 7th season as a senior could easily qualify as the skate of their life. Can you think of a competition where she skated better? She certainly wasn't clean at Four Continents (fell on the Lo, doubled a Lz), or Worlds (where she also had problems with both Lz jumps and received negative GOEs on them) this year. In the previous two seasons she was routinely scoring in the 100-120 range in the FS, and in her senior debut she had no GP assignments. I am more than willing to be proven wrong, but you have to back up your statements by facts. And hopefully she will keep improving and maturing.

I agree with your assessment of Alyona K. As for the quads, I hope she will add them gradually without overexerting her body and exposing herself to injury risks.

About Mariah...I’ve been following her and she’s had “skates of her life” that pop up. The 2015 (I think?) Nationals performance FS of Titanic, Skate America 2016 East of Eden, Worlds 2019 SP and FS...I just think at some point considering that she’s been starting to put cleanish performances together we’ve gotta stop considering it the skate of her life and maybe subtle improvements and growth. I mean we’ll see how she does in Russia but I think if she continues to deliver clean-ish performances I don’t think this should be considered the skate of her life.

And yes, Alyona (messed up spelling sorry!) I hope can do it gradually as well. We need her around for a long time.
 

Nord Stream 2

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
well that was like Tennell at SA, Then the reality scores ticked in at SC.
I dont think its right that a US is inserted to russian ladies thread just to brag that she almost beat Zagitova on a bad day.

I agree, but I wouldn't compare Tennell to Bell. For me, Tennell is a higher-level skater.
 

starla16

Medalist
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
I agree, but I wouldn't compare Tennell to Bell. For me, Tennell is a higher-level skater.

one last comment about Tennell and Bell, again they are equal and interchangeable. both in the same scoring range
depends on the tech caller, the skate and events.
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
I don’t even get the skate of her life argument. So what if it was the skate of her life? We are supposed to be comparing what happened on the ice on that one day, not any other day.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
First Bradie (Outcry over her home boosted scores) and now Mariah are being talked about more in the Russian thread than they are in their own

:laugh2::palmf:
 

Nord Stream 2

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
one last comment about Tennell and Bell, again they are equal and interchangeable. both in the same scoring range
depends on the tech caller, the skate and events.

The last time not on topic. Tennell has her own handwriting. It's not boring to watch her skating. If you put a mask on her, you still recognize her. In my opinion, it is expensive in an age of monotony.
 

IcyMathStats

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Country
United-States
I don’t even get the skate of her life argument. So what if it was the skate of her life? We are supposed to be comparing what happened on the ice on that one day, not any other day.

It does not matter for the purposes of medal allocation on that particular day, but situating a skater's performance in the appropriate context helps determine who is a worthy winner capable of prevailing on their technical abilities and artistry, as opposed to a typically inconsistent skater who accidentally raises to the top on one occasion with one cleanish skate due to random uncharacteristic mistakes by competitors and/or biased judging. Some people jumped to far-fetched predictions based on this event, even seeing Bell making the GP final over Tuktamysheva or Young You who have triple axels in their arsenal. This bronze medal is probably no different than Osmond winning Worlds in 2018, or Hughes and Sotnikova winning the Olympics in 2002 and 2014, respectively. Or Boyang Jin placing ahead of Nathan Chen at the Olympics. Brezina (also coached by Raf) had a much more promising trajectory heading into this season, and only placed 11th at SA this year. You need to establish a pattern, not just be a flash in the pan, before being hyped up as a legitimate challenger of the reigning Olympic champion.
 

Nord Stream 2

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Actually it's great to see ladies developing the way Mariah and Bradie are later in their careers. That's why I hope some of the Russian girls Berry by the Federation at age 16 or 17 look at them as examples as to why they should stick it out and maybe become really good later in their late teens and early twenties.

Do you think these examples should inspire them? They have a different orientation.
Comparing 23-year-old Bell and 13-year-old Usacheva (we will not talk about Valieva ), they can come to other conclusions. For the extra 10 years in figure skating, Bell approached the level of a Junior https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=307&v=Vo9aBioHniA . Once in her entire career.
No, they have to find another motivation. I hope they come up with something.
 
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