2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
There has been one American, one Japanese and one Canadian on the tech panel for ladies across all 4 GPs so far. Most seem to be from smaller federation countries, and some Eastern Europeans.

Neither the American or Canadian were on the panel at their own countries GP either
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Anyway, I have to say this. If there is a conspiracy to prevent the Russian teenagers from running away with all the loot this season, that conspiracy has failed utterly.

I never implied that. As long as they land their quads and triple axels they are off-limits within the current rules. What one can do is just spoil the mood of Anna and her team with 5 edge calls at one competition. It is broader. The season started with 2 world medalists Alina and Zhenya and Liza, the winner of the last competition of the last season joined by a powerful trio of youngsters. With Lizbet missing the season and Rika injured 6:0 at GPF was a clear possibility if things judging wise went as they went last season.

One can attach the label "conspiracy" to this theory. For me it's just logical that many at ISU and federations were very unhappy about this possibility and did all that they could to not let it happen.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
There has been one American, one Japanese and one Canadian on the tech panel for ladies across all 4 GPs so far. Most seem to be from smaller federation countries, and some Eastern Europeans.

Neither the American or Canadian were on the panel at their own countries GP either

Really?

Mr. Gilberto VIADANA used to be an Italian skater. He moved to the USA in 2004. I have no idea what citizenship or dual citizenshiph he has now but he runs a figure skating club in the U.S.A. so that he can hardly be considered as truly independent. He was in the TP team in the U.S.A.

Eastern-Europe? It's the end of 2019. There's no Soviet block for quite a while now. Lithuania where Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE is from is in the EU since 2004 same as Mr. Gilberto VIADANA is in the US.

And so on, and so forth.

Yes, it's getting tiresome. "It's all normal, it's business as usual". For me it's not normal and it's not business as usual. But I said enough on the topic. I explained what could the reasons be - I may be right, I may be wrong. There are facts and there are possible explanations to those facts. "Business as usual" explanation just does not suit me.

But one more time, enough with this before the GPF (unless something extraordinary happens at CoR).
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Really?

Mr. Gilberto VIADANA used to be an Italian skater. He moved to the USA in 2004. I have no idea what citizenship or dual citizenshiph he has now but he runs a figure skating club in the U.S.A. so that he can hardly be considered as truly independent. He was in the TP team in the U.S.A.

Eastern-Europe? It's the end of 2019. There's no Soviet block for quite a while now. Lithuania where Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE is from is in the EU since 2004 same as Mr. Gilberto VIADANA is in the US.

And so on, and so forth.

Yes, it's getting tiresome. "It's all normal, it's business as usual". For me it's not normal and it's not business as usual. But I said enough on the topic. I explained what could the reasons be - I may be right, I may be wrong. There are facts and there are possible explanations to those facts. "Business as usual" explanation just does not suit me.

But one more time, enough with this before the GPF (unless something extraordinary happens at CoR).

And it is specially hilarious when people come and tell us that of course lithuanian / polish / ukraininan etc judges are favouring russian skaters.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Really?

Mr. Gilberto VIADANA used to be an Italian skater. He moved to the USA in 2004. I have no idea what citizenship or dual citizenshiph he has now but he runs a figure skating club in the U.S.A. so that he can hardly be considered as truly independent. He was in the TP team in the U.S.A.

Eastern-Europe? It's the end of 2019. There's no Soviet block for quite a while now. Lithuania where Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE is from is in the EU since 2004 same as Mr. Gilberto VIADANA is in the US.

And so on, and so forth.

Yes, it's getting tiresome. "It's all normal, it's business as usual". For me it's not normal and it's not business as usual. But I said enough on the topic. I explained what could the reasons be - I may be right, I may be wrong. There are facts and there are possible explanations to those facts. "Business as usual" explanation just does not suit me.

But one more time, enough with this before the GPF (unless something extraordinary happens at CoR).

It is getting tiresome, this nonsensical "everyone is against the Russians" nonsense.

They are winning everything! And by quite a margin. The only skater capable of even approaching the top Russians is Rika Kihira.

And Alyssa Liu in Juniors.

Skatingscores and ISU has VIADANA listed as ITALIAN in nationality, that he lives and works in the USA means absolutely nothing.

I didn't say anything about the Soviet block, I meant how far East is East for you in "Western countries only?"

You do realise quite a few people with Russian origins live in other Eastern European countries don't you? Then we should hold them to the same standard as you do to an Italian you seem to think is American and therefor biased to American skaters.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
And it is specially hilarious when people come and tell us that of course lithuanian / polish / ukraininan etc judges are favouring russian skaters.

See my explanation.

Some may have Russian origin

Just as someone is claiming an Italian living in USA but Italian on the ISU listings is somehow American and biased towards Americans.

Hilarious like that too?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And it is specially hilarious when people come and tell us that of course lithuanian / polish / ukraininan etc judges are favouring russian skaters.

Or when people say, of course Italians and Danes will favor American and Japanese skaters.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
See my explanation.

Some may have Russian origin

Just as someone is claiming an Italian living in USA but Italian on the ISU listings is somehow American and biased towards Americans.

Hilarious like that too?

I won't argue with you for the classical reason: there are people one should never argue with.

It's simply one of your last points is so ridiculous that I just cannot miss it. The guy moved to the United States 15 years ago. He lives there, he is not a tourist. Moreover, he became the director of the Olympic Center Skating School in Lake Placid in 2008. He is currently the Figure Skating Director for the Mid Hudson Civic Center where he manages the McCann arena and the Ice Time Sport Complex. Yes, he is the embodiment of a truly independent person with no ties to the US Fed whatsoever.

And one more thing. Whatever is his listed nationality at some site it's nothing. He may have dual citizenship and he is not obliged to report it. He surely has a green card, etc., etc.

Please, I know it's too much for me to ask you not to reply but I will try it anyway.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I see no outcry when Russians have had edges or URs ignored in the past either.

It's hypocrisy at its finest.

The Russian skaters are my favourites but I try to not let any bias towards them affect my overall opinions.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I won't argue with you for the classical reason: there are people one should never argue with.

It's simply one of your last points is so ridiculous that I just cannot miss it. The guy moved to the United States 15 years ago. He lives there, he is not a tourist. Moreover, he became the director of the Olympic Center Skating School in Lake Placid in 2008. He is currently the Figure Skating Director for the Mid Hudson Civic Center where he manages the McCann arena and the Ice Time Sport Complex. Yes, he is the embodiment of a truly independent person with no ties to the US Fed whatsoever.

And one more thing. Whatever is his listed nationality at some site it's nothing. He may have dual citizenship and he is not obliged to report it. He surely has a green card, etc., etc.

Please, I know it's too much for me to ask you not to reply but I will try it anyway.

When you stop peddling this "Russians are victims of judging bias/conspiracy stuff, I'll stop answering.

He is Italian, that's what he is listed as.

There are numerous skaters who live and train in countries different to their nationality, but they do not compete for those countries.

He is not American, and you can't prove that simply living and working there makes him biased, that is absolutely ridiculous.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Yea just a comic summary :) other points were out of context as well, they are kind of related to the topic if you read everything from the beginning, but for a new or disconnected member all of that would be overwhelming.

Most immigrants I know are not particularly patriotic of the country they immigrated to, but who knows about anyone else. The panel in SkAm was pretty weird though (they took underrotated triple for a double (for Tennell, not sure if that helped or harmed her), if it's not strange then I don't know what is). Well, we can't change anything now. Let's look forward to Rostelecom and NHK (and smaller competitions as well)! Can't wait to see Sasha and Zhenya, it seems I will be able to watch it live so I'm excited.

The 2T for Tennell was a system technical error, it was not taken as a 2T it was entered incorrectly.

It did cost her in points, but you won't see anyone pointing that out in here. Entered correctly even the 3T< would have given her more points than the incorrect 2T. She also still got the negative GOE for that UR but it shows as clean 2T in protocols

It was not corrected and if her chance of making the GPF Final goes down to scores it could hurt her even more.

If that had happened to one of our Russuan ladies the outcry would be insane!
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
The 2T for Tennell was a system technical error, it was not taken as a 2T it was entered incorrectly.

It did cost her in points, but you won't see anyone pointing that out in here. Entered correctly even the 3T< would have given her more points than the incorrect 2T. She also still got the negative GOE for that UR but it shows as clean 2T in protocols

It was not corrected and if her chance of making the GPF Final goes down to scores it could hurt her even more.

If that had happened to one of our Russuan ladies the outcry would be insane!

It was not 3T<, but 3T<<, so the BV is the same as with 2T. Actually with 3T<< in the judging sheet, jump would probably get lower GOE than it got from the panel of judges as 2T.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
It was not 3T<, but 3T<<, so the BV is the same as with 2T. Actually with 3T<< in the judging sheet, jump would probably get lower GOE than it got from the pannel of judges as 2T.

It was not a downgrade at all. It was not even that under!

It was <

The minus GOE was still there for the underrotation but the protocol shows a clean 2T.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
It was not a downgrade at all. It was not even that under!

It was <

The minus GOE was still there for the underrotation but the protocol shows a clean 2T.

It is a downgrade, because her take off was too forward (similar with the toeaxel), and she UR more than usual to call it <. You can compare it with other UR toeloop jumps to see a difference. That's why probably tech panel 'saw' it as 2T. She got negative GOE in real time because timing of the second jump was bad, as take off and the landing, regardless the call is 3T<, 3T<< or 2T. Even with < sign, judges should go further down in GOE after the review, so the outcome is more/less similar. That's probably the reason they didn't complain about it.
 

Thrashergurl

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
The 2T for Tennell was a system technical error, it was not taken as a 2T it was entered incorrectly.

It did cost her in points, but you won't see anyone pointing that out in here. Entered correctly even the 3T< would have given her more points than the incorrect 2T. She also still got the negative GOE for that UR but it shows as clean 2T in protocols

It was not corrected and if her chance of making the GPF Final goes down to scores it could hurt her even more.

If that had happened to one of our Russuan ladies the outcry would be insane!

Thank you for pointing this out. It could potentially hurt Bradie in the end.

Seems some want the Russian girls flaws overlooked but not skaters from other countries. You do understand that correcting these flaws will make them stronger vs turning a blind eye as they did with Zagitova last season, right? Had they made the right calls with Zagitova last season instead of holding her up (because she won the Olympics the season before) then perhaps you wouldn’t be so surprised they’re finally judging her like the other girls.

Hopefully the coaches are listening to the judges and making adjustments
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
It is a downgrade, because her take off was too forward (similar with the toeaxel), and she UR more than usual to call it <. You can compare it with other UR toeloop jumps to see a difference. That's why probably tech panel 'saw' it as 2T. She got negative GOE in real time because timing of the second jump was bad, as take off and the landing, regardless the call is 3T<, 3T<< or 2T. Even with < sign, judges should go further down in GOE after the review, so the outcome is more/less similar. That's probably the reason they didn't complain about it.

It was not a downgrade. You can keep convincing yourself it was but it wasn't. It was UR with a bad landing. It was reviewed as 3T< and her GOE reflects that.
It does not reflect either a 3T<< or a 2T with bad landing.

This double standard going on around here is annoying.
Some of you will bend over backwards to try to show that Russian skaters edge calls/URs were wrongly called and they were fine but do the exact opposite for others.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
It was not a downgrade. You can keep convincing yourself it was but if wasn't. It was UR with a bad landing. It was reviewed as 3T< and her GOE reflects that.
It does not reflect either a 3T<< or a 2T with bad landing.

This double standard going on around here is annoying.
Some of you will bend over backwards to try to show that Russian skaters edge calls/URs were wrongly called and they were fine but do the exact opposite for others.

It is not a double standard. It is that you can't do a simple math. She got average -2 GOE from the judges in real time, because the tech box is saying -1 overall GOE for the combo. If jump is called as UR after the review, judges would go further down in GOE for it, and the score for the combo (BV+GOE) will be the same.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
It is not a double standard. It is that you can't do a simple math. She got average -2 GOE from the judges in real time, because the tech box is saying -1 overall GOE for the combo. If jump is called as UR after the review, judges would go further down in GOE for it, and the score for the combo (BV+GOE) will be the same.

She mostly got -2 or -3 GOE from the judges, the UR was obvious in real time
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
She mostly got -2 or -3 GOE from the judges, the UR was obvious in real time

It got -2 for other visible mistakes, including for not so good landing. BUT when jump is called as UR after the review judges usually lower the GOE for it. Some judges still gave her 0 or even +2, which means they didn't see UR in real time!? If jump was called as 3T< her average GOE would be lower. And scores for 3Lz+2T combo with -2 GOE and 3Lz+3T< with -4 GOE are almost the same.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
It got -2 for other visible mistakes. When jump is called as UR after the review judges usually lower the GOE for it. Some judges still gave her 0 or even +2, which means they didn't see UR in real time!? If jump was called as 3T< her average GOE would be lower. And scores for 3Lz+2T combo with -2 GOE and 3Lz+3T< with -3 GOE are almost the same.

ONE judge gave 2 and obviously they didn't see the UR or the slight step out. Not that it matters.
It was still 3T< there is no downgrade to be seen, no matter which way you spin it.
She still lost a little on her score from the 2T error.
This was discussed in the US Ladies thread at the time, I don't recall exactly what was said about the matter but it was indeed an error.
 
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