2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

I'm not sure many people can compare to Yulia's spins so the comparison seems unfair to Liza. We could compare Yulia's double axel to Liza's. Both have their strong suits.

Wouldn't it be more fair to compare Anna's quad lutz to Alexandra's? Has any other lady landed a quad lutz?

I have to say that to my totally uneducated eye the video makes a case for itself but then I'm not a judge and I wouldn't use a video made by a fan/fanemy to make up my mind. Anna's quad lutz in the example used is not as good as Boyang's. Anything more than that I wouldn't be comfortable saying.

And besides.. Boyang, unless I missed a major, major announcement, is not a Russian Lady.

pearly · Nov 11, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The maker of that video is pretty biased, comparing the quad of a senior man and a just turned senior lady. "Full blade" takeoff on Anna's? Um, no.

Any suggestion that a lutz which uses some of the front part of the blade is poor technique is correct. Any suggestion that it makes it somehow a loop or a "different jump" is not correct.

Yep, definitely not full blade assist when viewed in such slow motion. Partial blade, yes. Loop, no.

Also important to note - judges are not allowed to review each segment of the jump in slow motion.

However - we go and compare the girls' (Anna's, Sasha's) layouts and TES scores with men's whenever they do well and get their quads. So comparing jumps is fair game.

Alex65 · Nov 11, 2019

ancientpeas said:
I'm not sure many people can compare to Yulia's spins so the comparison seems unfair to Liza. We could compare Yulia's double axel to Liza's. Both have their strong suits.

Wouldn't it be more fair to compare Anna's quad lutz to Alexandra's? Has any other lady landed a quad lutz?

I have to say that to my totally uneducated eye the video makes a case for itself but then I'm not a judge and I wouldn't use a video made by a fan/fanemy to make up my mind. Anna's quad lutz in the example used is not as good as Boyang's. Anything more than that I wouldn't be comfortable saying.

And besides.. Boyang, unless I missed a major, major announcement, is not a Russian Lady.

You can also compare with Alice ( if you want.

)

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The maker of that video is pretty biased, comparing the quad of a senior man and a just turned senior lady. "Full blade" takeoff on Anna's? Um, no.

Any suggestion that a lutz which uses some of the front part of the blade is poor technique is correct. Any suggestion that it makes it somehow a loop or a "different jump" is not correct.

I wish I even understood what that meant by the way..a full blade take off. I think I understand pre rotations and underrotations and I might get flat edges (but I can't pick them up) but all this talk of full blade assists just hurts my brain. I like to watch the performances as a whole. I don't want to be staring at their feet the whole time judging the minutia. A good performance should sweep me up and draw me in. I don't want to be thinking "oh..was that a flat edge..was that a full blade assist?" I want to be saying "oh..that was moving, that was lovely, I have chills."

Maybe I watch figure skating differently than other people.

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

Alex65 said:
You can also compare with Alice ( if you want. )

And her looking glass? Is a white rabbit involved? a hookah smoking caterpillar? Off with their heads!!!
More people should skate to White Rabbit.

Mathman · Nov 11, 2019

ancientpeas said:
And besides.. Boyang, unless I missed a major, major announcement, is not a Russian Lady.

They should make Boyang Jin an honorary Russian lady. He started the whole quad Lutz revolution. :yes:

jenaj · Nov 11, 2019

readernick said:
True, it definitely isn't a loop. Just less than ideal technique on the lutz which many skaters both and female use.. It does, however, clearly show how flat her edge is when she picks in... so perhaps it can be used as good evidence of correct calling of the technical panel. The 4Lz is !.

I don't see how anyone can call it a loop. Doesn't the loop land on the same foot as the takeoff? The lutz lands on the opposite foot. Also, the video clearly shows her picking in.

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

Mathman said:
They should make Boyang Jin an honorary Russian lady. He started the whole quad Lutz revolution. :yes:

As if the Russians need anymore good "ladies" skating for them. Sheesh Mathman. Their cup already runeth over. If Boyang is going to become an honorary lady for anyone can he become an honorary lady for Canada?

Happy Skates · Nov 11, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The maker of that video is pretty biased, comparing the quad of a senior man and a just turned senior lady. "Full blade" takeoff on Anna's? Um, no.

Any suggestion that a lutz which uses some of the front part of the blade is poor technique is correct. Any suggestion that it makes it somehow a loop or a "different jump" is not correct.

I know right? I have a feeling that most of the people that complain about "full blade assist" and say that they're actually doing a loop jump have never actually done a lutz. Not that you're not allowed to critique if you're not a skater, but I don't think you can claim to know what makes a jump "easier" if you've never actually tried it. And in my opinion, I see no way that the entire blade making contact with the ice would help a lutz jump. In fact, I think that would make it harder. So I think its silly to call it a "full blade assist" as if more blade = easier to jump or something. And a lot of the slowed down videos that claim a skater is using "full blade" to me look like the skater's blade is close to the ice but isn't actually touching, or like you said - only the front part of the blade is touching.

Either way, the ultra-fixation with slowing down jumps and analyzing the tiniest parts of them baffles me. Skating is a spectator sport, viewed in real time. The judges also judge in real time. Under-rotations are called in real time, because some of them can be seen in real time. And if something can be seen in real time, then it detracts from the viewing experience. But in my opinion, "full blade assist" is not something that can be detected in real time. And some people may claim that they can detect it, but I have a feeling that thats only if they already know that a skater has a reputation for "full blade assist", and if they've already seen slowed down versions of the skater doing the same jump. Oh and the most important thing, unless I have missed something, the IJS says never uses the words "full blade assist". So I don't see a reason there should be a deduction for this.

pearly · Nov 11, 2019

ancientpeas said:
I wish I even understood what that meant by the way..a full blade take off. I think I understand pre rotations and underrotations and I might get flat edges (but I can't pick them up) but all this talk of full blade assists just hurts my brain. I like to watch the performances as a whole. I don't want to be staring at their feet the whole time judging the minutia. A good performance should sweep me up and draw me in. I don't want to be thinking "oh..was that a flat edge..was that a full blade assist?" I want to be saying "oh..that was moving, that was lovely, I have chills."

Maybe I watch figure skating differently than other people.

As a viewer, you're fine. The judges have a different job. Full blade assist/take off if when a skater goes for a toe jump (F, Lz or T), picks with the free leg but instead of taking off immediately, they put the whole blade down and then take off like they would from an edge jump. A skater comfortable with, say, their 3Lo may try to disguise their 3F or a 3Lz and get more help from their edge.

The super slow motion video in question here shows a proper take of from a toe pick for one skater and the other skater using half their blade to take off from the ice. It's actually a useful tool for anyone who wants to see the difference, regardless of who the skaters are. But this should be a separate thread.

zounger · Nov 11, 2019

pearly said:
However - we go and compare the girls' (Anna's, Sasha's) layouts and TES scores with men's whenever they do well and get their quads. So comparing jumps is fair game.

I agree with comparing the jumps and elements generally, but not the scores. Since it's obvious (at least to me) that they scored differently(men and ladies). The score, TES comparing most of the time is done as a way to express the level of difficulty or admiration of the achievement. I don't think someone believes that Anna's lutz is better than Boynag's or Kolyada's or if there is someone, then probably is very biased.

macy · Nov 11, 2019

Happy Skates said:
I know right? I have a feeling that most of the people that complain about "full blade assist" and say that they're actually doing a loop jump have never actually done a lutz. Not that you're not allowed to critique if you're not a skater, but I don't think you can claim to know what makes a jump "easier" if you've never actually tried it. And in my opinion, I see no way that the entire blade making contact with the ice would help a lutz jump. In fact, I think that would make it harder. So I think its silly to call it a "full blade assist" as if more blade = easier to jump or something. And a lot of the slowed down videos that claim a skater is using "full blade" to me look like the skater's blade is close to the ice but isn't actually touching, or like you said - only the front part of the blade is touching.

Either way, the ultra-fixation with slowing down jumps and analyzing the tiniest parts of them baffles me. Skating is a spectator sport, viewed in real time. The judges also judge in real time. Under-rotations are called in real time, because some of them can be seen in real time. And if something can be seen in real time, then it detracts from the viewing experience. But in my opinion, "full blade assist" is not something that can be detected in real time. And some people may claim that they can detect it, but I have a feeling that thats only if they already know that a skater has a reputation for "full blade assist", and if they've already seen slowed down versions of the skater doing the same jump. Oh and the most important thing, unless I have missed something, the IJS says never uses the words "full blade assist". So I don't see a reason there should be a deduction for this.

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

pearly said:
As a viewer, you're fine. The judges have a different job. Full blade assist/take off if when a skater goes for a toe jump (F, Lz or T), picks with the free leg but instead of taking off immediately, they put the whole blade down and then take off like they would from an edge jump. A skater comfortable with, say, their 3Lo may try to disguise their 3F or a 3Lz and get more help from their edge.

The super slow motion video in question here shows a proper take of from a toe pick for one skater and the other skater using half their blade to take off from the ice. It's actually a useful tool for anyone who wants to see the difference, regardless of who the skaters are. But this should be a separate thread.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree it should be it's own thread. I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't really understand it.

pearly · Nov 11, 2019

zounger said:
I agree with comparing the jumps and elements generally, but not the scores. Since it's obvious (at least to me) that they scored differently(men and ladies). The score, TES comparing most of the time is done as a way to express the level of difficulty or admiration of the achievement. I don't think someone believes that Anna's lutz is better than Boynag's or Kolyada's or if there is someone, then probably is very biased.

So far, all the BV/TES comparisons I've seen were of course made in admiration (especially of Sasha's scores with scores of men at the same event). Personally I find it a bit degrading. "Look, a girl can do better than most/all of the men." Of course she can.

zounger · Nov 11, 2019

pearly said:
So far, all the BV/TES comparisons I've seen were of course made in admiration (especially of Sasha's scores with scores of men at the same event). Personally I find it a bit degrading. "Look, a girl can do better than most/all of the men." Of course she can.

I cannot speak for others, personally I don't give much interest in such comparison, neither I enjoy them. I will give a simple example. Most of the average ranking men have better SS than the top ladies, yet the top ladies get 9s and average men to get 7s. So you cannot compare on a serious note. As a fan, jocking yes.

Of course, there might be some absolute metrics like the height of jump and etc. that can be compared...

macy · Nov 11, 2019

ancientpeas said:
Thanks for the explanation. I agree it should be it's own thread. I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't really understand it.

this was my response to another poster in the skaters with proper technique thread, started by the same user who shared the video. there has been conversation there and also in the thread about Liza's scores.

"uh, sure...i skated competitively for 13 years so i suppose i can say i've been around the block. i'm sure i tried something "full bladed" before while messing around, but i'm not really sure why it's relevant to the discussion. even edge jumps are taken off the pick, not the blade.

as i've said before, it's the nature of jumping and motion and speed and rotation that your weight shifts "backward" or it looks "full blade" as you lift into the air and begin rotation. this is jump mechanics, it's just how it works. some skaters do it more than others but this has nothing to do with how they were taught or something they're trying to do to cheat the jump. it happens too quickly to try to control, and every one is different in how they jump. they're human, not robots. it's just part of the jump and shifting of weight.

i wouldn't expect anyone who never skated or even did it recreationally to understand, which is why i'm trying to explain. i can speak from many, many years of experience of doing it myself and being taught, competing, volunteer judging, coaching others, etc. i'm not speaking from a place of only watching youtube videos and observing from afar."

it's just jump mechanics. "full blade assist" is a made up fan term and is not used nor has meaning to the ISU.

Mathman · Nov 11, 2019

ancientpeas said:
Thanks for the explanation. I agree it should be it's own thread. I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't really understand it.

I have heard explanations that go something like this. For a toe jump (toe-pick assisted) the skater is supposed to jab his toe into the ice like a pole vaulter and then use the more or less stiff leg, well, like a pole vaulter uses his pole to loft into the air.

An edge jump you lay your blade out full length on the ice, bend your knee, and then jump up in the air like someone doing a stationary high jump by pure leg strength.

So which is easier, a Toe loop or a Salchow? The toe-pick assist in principle gives you more oomph (pole vaulters go higher than high jumpers), but requires better co-ordination and timing of your feet with your upper body.

I guess a "full blad assist" on a toe jump would be a sort of cheat trying to hedge your bets rather than relying on textbook technique.

(OK, everyone can start laughing at my explanation now.

)

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

macy said:
this was my response to another poster in the skaters with proper technique thread, started by the same user who shared the video. there has been conversation there and also in the thread about Liza's scores.

"uh, sure...i skated competitively for 13 years so i suppose i can say i've been around the block. i'm sure i tried something "full bladed" before while messing around, but i'm not really sure why it's relevant to the discussion. even edge jumps are taken off the pick, not the blade.

as i've said before, it's the nature of jumping and motion and speed and rotation that your weight shifts "backward" or it looks "full blade" as you lift into the air and begin rotation. this is jump mechanics, it's just how it works. some skaters do it more than others but this has nothing to do with how they were taught or something they're trying to do to cheat the jump. it happens too quickly to try to control, and every one is different in how they jump. they're human, not robots. it's just part of the jump and shifting of weight.

i wouldn't expect anyone who never skated or even did it recreationally to understand, which is why i'm trying to explain. i can speak from many, many years of experience of doing it myself and being taught, competing, volunteer judging, coaching others, etc. i'm not speaking from a place of only watching youtube videos and observing from afar."

it's just jump mechanics. "full blade assist" is a made up fan term and is not used nor has meaning to the ISU.

Thank you for the explanation.
It seems like there is controversy about if it really matters to the quality of the jump or should effect the GOE then?

ancientpeas · Nov 11, 2019

Mathman said:
I have heard explanations that go something like this. For a toe jump (toe-pick assisted) the skater is supposed to jab his toe into the ice like a pole vaulter and then use the more or less stiff leg, well, like a pole vaulter uses his pole to loft into the air.

An edge jump you lay your blade out full length on the ice, bend your knee, and then jump up in the air like someone doing a stationary high jump by pure leg strength.

So which is easier, a Toe loop or a Salchow? The toe-pick assist in principle gives you more oomph (pole vaulters go higher than high jumpers), but requires better co-ordination and timing of your feet with your upper body.

(OK, everyone can start laughing at my explanation now. )

Well..the ISU must feel Sal are harder because they have more point value in the IJS. Just as the flip has less value than the lutz. Which jump normally has the highest elevation? The toe?

Gosh...this is really Off-topicing the thread. Sorry.

Maybe we should move this to it's own thread Mr. Math?

SnowWhite · Nov 11, 2019

Alex65 said:
You can also compare with Alice ( if you want. )

topic: Her name is actually Alysa, not Alice. It's not the same name, so just calling her Alice can be confusing. It took me a minute to figure out who you meant.

As for comparing the quads, I won't get into that.

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