FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

monochrom3 said:
To be fair to everyone, there is fair enough reason for people to feel Prins has an underlying agenda, or that he is being unduly biased. Prins was part of the committee which headed the proposal to raise the figure skating age to 17 and above, an idea that appeared to him after he saw Alina step on the senior circuit in her Olympic year. He gave an interview about it as well back in 2018.

Of course, I'm not saying that he's necessarily biased, but that people should have their misgivings about him is not completely out of thin air.

Absolutely nothing to do with it.

His proposal was to raise the age limit to 17 for the 2020/21 season. Alina is already 17 and his proposal never intended to affect her at all.

People think he is biased because they need to accuse someone that's all

el henry · Nov 12, 2019

[email protected] said:
Sapienti sat

Enough for a wise man?

I would not dare to call myself wise, but no, any “theory” based on conclusions about nationalities of judges and calls is not.

The search continues for actual proof, rather than hypothesizing.....

rollerblade · Nov 12, 2019

rlopen said:
Carolina Kostner...slow?! That’s the funniest lie I’ve heard all day!!!!

Shhhhh. I have an extra case of huile de serpent to offload and I think KRIKIC08 could be my next buyer!

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 12, 2019

Inconsistency is a problem, but skaters receiving strict calls is not. The solution is for tech panels to do their jobs more thoroughly at every event. If everyone can see a skater take off for a lutz from an inside edge, "e" is the only proper call. If there isn't a clear outside edge on the lutz takeoff, "!" is the correct call.

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
Inconsistency is a problem, but skaters receiving strict calls is not. The solution is for tech panels to do their jobs more thoroughly at every event. If everyone can see a skater take off for a lutz from an inside edge, "e" is the only proper call. If there isn't a clear outside edge on the lutz takeoff, "!" is the correct call.

It isn't always that obvious and disagreement happens.

Strict judging is a very good thing but not if it is inconsistent. I understand that the judges and tech panel are only human though, they're not machines. Rather than endlessly bashing them, we should be encouraging ways of helping make their task easier.

samkrut@mail.ru · Nov 12, 2019

Mathman said:
Alexander Lakernik and his cronies in the ISU are against Russia? There is a sinister pact among Finland, Australia and Spain to promote the fortunes of Mariah Bell?

Having 6 Russian ladies at GPF is bad for ISU and Lakernik is a part of ISU. No one will watch such a competition in the U.S.A. I am not sure but like with UN I understand that big federations contribute financially, don't they? And the lack of interest to the discipline because one country drove over everyone else in a 100 thousand pound truck would lead to some unpleasant consequences.

Another point is that with 6:0 and even 5:1 the current status quo: meritocracy for GP series and quota system for the worlds/Olympics would come to the direct confrontation. One will have to admit that the half of the best skaters in the world are just cut from the main event for the rule sake with a dubious excuse of bringing smaller federations there.

DenissVFan · Nov 12, 2019

Why can't judges use broadcast cameras for reviews, though? It's really weird for viewers to have a better view and more angles than the judging panel.

skatingfan200 · Nov 12, 2019

evasorange said:
I’m not sure how you can figure that when US ladies have been struggling for a while now. We haven’t even had anyone in the Grand Prix finale since Ashley back in like 2016. last season at skate America Bradie could have very well been fed pushed to get on the podium but she came in 4th...

Technical, the Armerican ladies are not judged harsher this season. For example the top two american ladies have a flat edge on their lutz but have not been called this GP season. And 3 times a flat edge call overall(SP+FS) can bring the GOE down a lot. Almost like one flutz call, points-wise.

https://up.picr.de/37026443hr.png
Tennel
https://up.picr.de/37138619td.png
Bell

Zhenya´s flutz should have been called the last seasons but it´s wrong to think she is the only one who got away with it. Around 70% of the ladies have a flat edge or inside edge. If you call one you should call everyone to be 100% fair.

Or will the fact that she’s skating in Russia and and has always since her first season gotten incredibly generous scores and calls protect her from her own mistakes?

From what mistakes are you talking other than the lutz?

Lakernik confirms that the letter he got from RusFed was concerning Alina's and Alena's scores in Grenoble and not concerning the scores in Cup of China

I would say the TP mistakes at GP France was not more overall than at other Grand prix´s. If the protest leads to better technique equipment for the judges, I support it.

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

^^ Agree.

Better technical equipment would help, Figure skating lags behind many sports in using technology to assist in decisions.

Tolstoj · Nov 12, 2019

DenissVFan said:
Why can't judges use broadcast cameras for reviews, though? It's really weird for viewers to have a better view and more angles than the judging panel.

This is probably the biggest reason why ISU is almost accepting all the complaining about judging.

If you want to solve the issue, you should give judges all the tech possible for a nice 360 degree view of every single element, and judges should also have all those stats about height, distance and speed we got last season at Worlds.

Instead we're still here blaming the human eye.

ruga · Nov 12, 2019

I'd say that the majority of ladies have shallow edge on their flips or lutzes (some even at both), it's just that they're often visible on frame by frame videos and usually only when you manage to stop the video at the right time. Not to mention the angles - it's almost impossible to determine whether the edge is shallow enough to be called while watching from the side. The ISU should approach this problem by placing more high quality cameras (yes, the budget is not infinite, but they can surely save up something by serving cheper wine at the banquet or whatever). Also, the judges shouldn't be discouraged from giving calls, but these calls must not be given selectively.

Of course we can bring back 6.0 where only your landing was judged and I'm sure there will be less complaints and everyone will be happy that their favorites skated 'clean' and got huge scores, but it won't be fair for those who strive to improve their technique and for the quality of sport in general.

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

6.0 didn't even judge landings properly much of the time. URs were generally ignored and so too were two foot landings

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 12, 2019

ruga said:
I'd say that the majority of ladies have shallow edge on their flips or lutzes (some even at both), it's just that they're often visible on frame by frame videos and usually only when you manage to stop the video at the right time. Not to mention the angles - it's almost impossible to determine whether the edge is shallow enough to be called while watching from the side.

I think from the last few GP events we've seen, it looks like the panel wants the proper edge to be visible, whereas before the penalty was assessed only when the incorrect edge was visible. I'm ok with this. If the skaters want to do these short entrances on the lutz and get on the outside edge at the last moment before takeoff, they better get on a clear outside edge. The whole reason the lutz is harder than the flip is because you're jumping in the opposite direction of your momentum, so if you takeoff from a flat or inside edge you aren't doing that.

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

But they are not sending that message consistently that's the issue. The judges and tech panel need more assistance to help increase the consistency, to make it easier to identify the issues and easier for them all to agree the right call to make

jenaj · Nov 12, 2019

Mishaminion said:
6.0 didn't even judge landings properly much of the time. URs were generally ignored and so too were two foot landings

Two-foot landings weren't ignored. With cheated jumps, it was hit or miss. Also, because not that many skaters were doing triple-triples (or at least not everyone, like today), not that many solo triples or 3-2 combos were under-rotated. I think there was some leniency because the judges didn't want to penalize the more difficult moves, like 3-3s.

Mishaminion · Nov 12, 2019

jenaj said:
Two-foot landings weren't ignored. With cheated jumps, it was hit or miss. Also, because not that many skaters were doing triple-triples (or at least not everyone, like today), not that many solo triples or 3-2 combos were under-rotated. I think there was some leniency because the judges didn't want to penalize the more difficult moves, like 3-3s.

Ignoring URs on 3-3 was still ignoring URs

I can think of numerous times skaters were not deducted for two foot landings, Oksana Baiul throughout her short career example.

jenaj · Nov 12, 2019

Mishaminion said:
Ignoring URs on 3-3 was still ignoring URs

I can think of numerous times skaters were not deducted for two foot landings, Oksana Baiul throughout her short career example.

I agree ignoring URs on 3-3s is ignoring URs. Did I say otherwise? Ask Sasha Cohen about 2-foot landings. I would say they cost her a few National Championships.

Pantsu · Nov 12, 2019

Replacing humans at tech panels with machines could be a good first step in the right direction
Any other tweaks is a bs. There should be a clear standard where anyone can watch the replay and see for yourself how a call was made. Based on mathematics, with full explanation

Alex65 · Nov 12, 2019

A good first step, in my opinion (and the simplest and most natural, which does not require any additional costs), is public access to the cameras of the technical panel and the process of work of technical controllers. It’s obvious to me that the best way to reduce corruption and bias is to make the judgment process as transparent as possible. They publish detailed transcripts; judges are no longer impersonal. It's time to take the next step. Or are they afraid that this will blow up the existing FS system? Myths about trained technicians and special viewing angles inaccessible to anyone will disappear. "Strict" technical panels that come up with nonexistent and "soft" ones that do not notice flagrant violations will disappear. What do you think?

Edwin · Nov 12, 2019

Alex65 said:
A good first step, in my opinion (and the simplest and most natural, which does not require any additional costs), is public access to the cameras of the technical panel and the process of work of technical controllers. It’s obvious to me that the best way to reduce corruption and bias is to make the judgment process as transparent as possible. They publish detailed transcripts; judges are no longer impersonal. It's time to take the next step. Or are they afraid that this will blow up the existing FS system? Myths about trained technicians and special viewing angles inaccessible to anyone will disappear. "Strict" technical panels that come up with nonexistent and "soft" ones that do not notice flagrant violations will disappear. What do you think?

First of all some transparency: what are the 'calling for inspection' rules, who pressed the buttons for a video review, screenshots from the reviewed video clearly showing the faulty edge or rotational error?

ISU World Cup in short track skating is going on, with strong participants from my country, so I watch with pleasure. And since there are lots of violations of right of way, pushing and pulling, falls in short track, there are referees in various positions, there is a video review room. One can see the referees in operation, see the footage they use, listen in on them and watch the head referee dole out penalties. Everything is shown on the big screens in the arena too, so the whole refereeing seems quite transparent.

In figure skating, when you have a seat directly behing the tech panel you can watch them, look at their small screens, listen to them even, but I don't think they really appreciate 'being watched over their shoulder'. Esp. those that consider themselves 'deities' with all the pump and circumstance.

FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

Mishaminion

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

rollerblade

drivingmissdaisy

Mishaminion

[email protected]

Medalist

DenissVFan

skatingfan200

Mishaminion

Tolstoj

ruga

Mishaminion

drivingmissdaisy

Mishaminion

jenaj

Mishaminion

jenaj

Pantsu

Alex65

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

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