FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages | Page 8 | Golden Skate

FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Having 6 Russian ladies at GPF is bad for ISU and Lakernik is a part of ISU. No one will watch such a competition in the U.S.A. I am not sure but like with UN I understand that big federations contribute financially, don't they? And the lack of interest to the discipline because one country drove over everyone else in a 100 thousand pound truck would lead to some unpleasant consequences.

Another point is that with 6:0 and even 5:1 the current status quo: meritocracy for GP series and quota system for the worlds/Olympics would come to the direct confrontation. One will have to admit that the half of the best skaters in the world are just cut from the main event for the rule sake with a dubious excuse of bringing smaller federations there.

I will try to be more open minded about all the possibilities.

However, to address the two points that you make in this post. (1) No one in the United States will watch the Grand Prix Final no ,matter how many Russians or Americans are there. Only a tiny handful of people in the U.S. even know that such a thing as the Grand Prix of Figure Skating exists.

In particular, I do not expect to see a boom in interest in skating in the U.S. because Mariah Bell lucks into the last spot in the Grand Prix Final along with 4 Russians and Rika Kihira, and finishes last, 30 points behind Alexandra Trusova. (But Go U.S.A.!)

As for where the ISU gets its money, I don't know (but there are many required financial documents in the public domain for this non-profit organization). A couple of decades ago a big chunk came from their multimillion dollar contract with U.S. ABC television. (In fact, securing this contract was touted as the shining accomplishment of the early career of then-ISU president Ottavio Cinquanta and propelled him to a twenty-year reign as a financial wizard.) I don't know what favors the television network or the USFSA got out of it. (But U.S. skaters did do pretty well in the 1990s. ;) )

Later the U.S. television interest got a couple of perks for sure. In the 2009-2010 Olympic season, for instance, the ISU agreed to change the Grand Prix schedule around to put Skate America later (closer to the Olympics) so that American television could market a trifecta of Skate America/U.S. Nationals/Olympics to its audience.

Now the U.S. television money has dried up. Far from the networks giving money to skating organizations for the rights to televise events, he USFSA basically must find advertisers on its own before the television networks (reluctantly) agree to show anything at all on TV. The year after the 2010 Olympics they tried to get Evan Lysacek to participate in Skate America, but negotiations between Lysacek's agents and the USFSA fell through -- no money (so it was reported at the time.) About the same time (2008?) the ISU threatened to withdraw its sanction and financial support from Skate America in Washington State because the local organizing committee could not come up with enough money from local sponsors. (The U.S. had just tumbled into economic recession, and the State of Washington reneged on its pledge of contributing a few hundred thousand for the glory of good old Washington State.

Now the money has migrated to Japan. Again, this is more because of corporate sponsors than because of any official acts of the Japanese Skating Federation. In return Japan gets to have the Japan Open and the World Team Trophy as sanctioned ISU events. If you want to dance, you have to pay the piper.

(2) About the second point, that the ISU wants to avoid discussion of Grand Prix individual meritocracy in contrast with a Worlds format where every member federation gets to take part -- this debate has been going on for years (with everyone making the same points pro and con over and over). I don't see how this discussion embarrasses the ISU or, frankly, that it has much to do with the question of fair judging. Fans, federations, and the ISU alike expect fair judging whatever the format.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with having different events organized by different sporting principles.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
LOL oh I love the smell of delusion and hypocrisy in the morning 😂 as far as I’m concerned, there are two cold hard facts in regards to this complaint-1. Figure skating judging is horrible and broken and inconsistent throughout every event and for every country and 2. Russia is the country that has benefited the MOST from all of that horrible and broken and inconsistent judging. ESPECIALLY in the women’s discipline. Evgenia flutzing without a care in the world for many seasons. Alina and her uncalled urs. Incredible PCS growth for whom ever the new shiny Russian junior of the season is. 8s+9s even when the program is nothing but jumps. Positive goe for stepouts and messy landings I could go on and on. I can’t imagine their reaction If their skaters were judged by the harsh standards some of these small federation ones are. To borrow a popular meme phrase...Russian fed you should have just sat there and ate your food 😂 🤡

This complaint deserves to be filed — in the rubbish heap.

The entitlement it must take to complain when you're winning everything, just takes my breath away, truly.

I sincerely doubt that the Russian Federation really wants the ISU to take a comprehensive, objective and fair deep dive into what's wrong with the scoring — because they won't like the (deserved) PCS drop if they do. So it makes me wonder, what's the real agenda here? Is it to get quads added to the short? Once again, I'm not really sure why they'd push so hard right now. As we've seen on the GP, it makes no difference to the overall results.

I can't imagine they're going to engender much sympathy for what just seems like the whining of privileged elites.
 

Skatefan15

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Lol. Wow, Of course Russia would do that:disapp: Their skaters are still winning and setting records (whether they should or shouldn’t) and all the edge calls are fair and they honestly have always been like that but they are finally calling them out:scratch2:
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
This complaint deserves to be filed — in the rubbish heap.

The entitlement it must take to complain when you're winning everything, just takes my breath away, truly.

I sincerely doubt that the Russian Federation really wants the ISU to take a comprehensive, objective and fair deep dive into what's wrong with the scoring — because they won't like the (deserved) PCS drop if they do. So it makes me wonder, what's the real agenda here? Is it to get quads added to the short? Once again, I'm not really sure why they'd push so hard right now. As we've seen on the GP, it makes no difference to the overall results.

I can't imagine they're going to engender much sympathy for what just seems like the whining of privileged elites.

The quads in SP mostly
I dont think that RusFed gives a fig about judging fairness in general apart from what they perceive to be fair or unfair on their own skaters.
Any fed would be like that to a degree I suppose.
I think that it's just politicking and riding the wave of popularity the Russian ladies have accumulated.

The general fan reaction I've seen is of the "lol they've got some need to talk about unfair judging" variety.

Two wrongs do not make a right though and everyone, Russian or not does deserve to be scored fairly.

We will see how much of a bastion of fair unbiased judging Russia can be at Rostelecom Cup I hope. Practice what they preach, otherwise there will be egg on many faces.
 

Seruleane

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
You mean like Mirai Nagasu, all of whose jumps were put under a microscope and whose PCS never rose above the low 8s, no matter what she did? I remember the ridiculous gap in scoring at the Olympic team event between her and Zagitova, even after she had a 3A and no UR calls. Who else? Bradie, who has not exactly impressed the international judges? Mariah, same? If the US is benefiting so much, why aren't their ladies winning?

The US ladies are not winning IMO because they have just not been good enough in recent years. Mirai getting 8s for PCS is quite generous considering her very simple programs (much like Liza T except without Liza’s performance factor). I hate to say that because Mirai has always been a sentimental fan favorite of many, including me, but I never felt she was underscored. I’m sure I’ll be attacked for writing that. As for Bradie and Mariah, they were never as consistent or had the star power that Gracie Gold or Ashley Wagner had. I’m pretty sure if Gracie had not made mistakes in the free, she would’ve been crowned World Champ over Medvedeva. Ashley was also scored quite generously there IIRC.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
The US ladies are not winning IMO because they have just not been good enough in recent years. Mirai getting 8s for PCS is quite generous considering her very simple programs (much like Liza T except without Liza’s performance factor). I hate to say that because Mirai has always been a sentimental fan favorite of many, including me, but I never felt she was underscored. I’m sure I’ll be attacked for writing that. As for Bradie and Mariah, they were never as consistent or had the star power that Gracie Gold or Ashley Wagner had. I’m pretty sure if Gracie had not made mistakes in the free, she would’ve been crowned World Champ over Medvedeva. Ashley was also scored quite generously there IIRC.

Why aren’t the US ladies winning? was a rhetorical question intended to show that they are not getting special favors from the judges. Their weaknesses are well-known and not worth discussing here.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I do not understand this. If you are an adult and do not work under duress, you must be responsible for your actions. In any field of activity. Judges are no exception. To hide refereeing behind a screen is a way to a dead end and the dense Middle Ages.

Most people don't like having people hovering over their shoulder picking them apart when they're trying to perform at their peak. Funny, that.

And considering the amount of death threats and abuse certain parts of the fandom are all too willing to throw at skaters just for the heinous crime of doing their best, I shudder to think what might happen if fanbases were allowed access to the judges.

But also, we're literally trying to concentrate. You're proposing an allowed distraction to the panel while they're trying to work. Come on. Really?
 

glacial87

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
THIS

https://www.reddit.com/r/FigureSkat...1d68255a64&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=duad0e

I'm not maintaining it's systematically against Russian skaters, but at the French Grand Prix Alina and Alyona were called while several others were not. If there was a new "rule" (unclear edge = call it, contrary to "call only visible wrong edge"), then it should be applied at every competition and for every single jump. And it should be officially announced, first and foremost. The federation has to avoid the impression that some Technical specialist are getting picky the very moment the 3A appear.

Besides some examples should be under scrutinity. Tuktamyshevas jumps are much better than Miyaharas and this should be reflected in the marks; it cannot be otherwise, just because Tuktamysheva isn't the favourite of her own federation. At least the GOE of jumps could be more objective, a range from -1 to +3 is really silly. A seperated panel PCS/Tech would be helpful, but expensive ...

Also a possibility: appeals against the decision of the Technical controller (he/she can do what he/she wants to do, whereas in Gymnastics the athlete can appeal immediately against a deduction or an element not counted). Costly as well ... BUT: if it works in Gymnastics, why not in FS?
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
You can call it dislike, but in my opinion she is together with Karolina Kostner a good example how an average skater(not top 10) gets medals only because of the support of their federations.
There is no way there deserve high PCS. They are both boring to watch, because they are slow....very slow

I completely disagree. Caroline Kostner was fast, some people even compared her to a speed skater and I've seen Satoko live and she skates with speed and so much ease and flow. So I don't know what you're seeing.
 

crazydreamer

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
It's very smart. Points for any jumps should be multiplied by weight. This way some skaters would have almost 20% advantage over the smaller ones. That would be a winning factor...
Perhaps the next Olympic gold will go to a 400 pound skater with a rad single axel.
 

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
Most people don't like having people hovering over their shoulder picking them apart when they're trying to perform at their peak. Funny, that.

And considering the amount of death threats and abuse certain parts of the fandom are all too willing to throw at skaters just for the heinous crime of doing their best, I shudder to think what might happen if fanbases were allowed access to the judges.

But also, we're literally trying to concentrate. You're proposing an allowed distraction to the panel while they're trying to work. Come on. Really?

I can not agree with all this. If you are an impressionable person and are afraid of threats, then your place is not in the judicial panel, be it a sports or civil court, but also the police, the army, and even teaching and medicine and much more.
As for the pressure on the judges that they can get, realizing that hundreds of eyes are closely watching their work, it's just ridiculous to me. If they are highly professional, well-trained specialists (and this is a strong argument in any dispute here that is not questioned), then public control over their work can't stop them from doing their job. After all, football or basketball referees somehow manage in the arenas filled with thousands of screaming spectators and no one demands that the spectators not make noise there.
 

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
In golf and tennis the audience have to be quiet, different sports have different codes of play. I don’t think it’s too strange that the judges wish things to remain as has been established.

That said I do think if it was possible creating a Hawk Eye or VAR like device would be awesome in figure skating so the audience could see the judges reasoning for the decision in real time. It would increase the judgment time though.
 

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
In golf and tennis the audience have to be quiet, different sports have different codes of play. I don’t think it’s too strange that the judges wish things to remain as has been established.

That said I do think if it was possible creating a Hawk Eye or VAR like device would be awesome in figure skating so the audience could see the judges reasoning for the decision in real time. It would increase the judgment time though.

Ha. To wish for better refereeing and leave everything as before for the judges - how is this even possible unit into one? :) Only in a fairy tale.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm not maintaining it's systematically against Russian skaters, but at the French Grand Prix Alina and Alyona were called while several others were not. If there was a new "rule" (unclear edge = call it, contrary to "call only visible wrong edge"), then it should be applied at every competition and for every single jump. And it should be officially announced, first and foremost. The federation has to avoid the impression that some Technical specialist are getting picky the very moment the 3A appear.

It should, because that is the rule. I don't know why "!" should ever be called for a visibly wrong edge; that's what "e" is for. The outrage should be over the lenient panels who let some skaters get away with improper takeoffs and under rotations, not strict panels who enforce the rules as written.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
If you look at the Senior Ladies results from the Tallinn Trophy that concluded today, you will see a tech team that had a Russian TS and an Estonian ATS. They freely gave URs and edge calls to nearly everyone, including Russian skater Guliakova. Of course, the winner, Russian skater Kseniia Tsibinova received no URs or edge calls.
 

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
It should, because that is the rule. I don't know why "!" should ever be called for a visibly wrong edge; that's what "e" is for. The outrage should be over the lenient panels who let some skaters get away with improper takeoffs and under rotations, not strict panels who enforce the rules as written.

back to the beginning. here is the source:
“Our federation turned to the ISU tech committee with a question about the inconsistency of decisions - they find an edge in some, not in others. Some other errors. The new system of plus five - minus five allows more use of opportunities from judges, so judging has become more subjective, " said Kogan.
This is about the inconsistency of decisions of tech panel decisions in one competition. This is not about different panels in different competitions. Just clarified.
 

Autumn Leaves

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
If you look at the Senior Ladies results from the Tallinn Trophy that concluded today, you will see a tech team that had a Russian TS and an Estonian ATS. They freely gave URs and edge calls to nearly everyone, including Russian skater Guliakova. Of course, the winner, Russian skater Kseniia Tsibinova received no URs or edge calls.

And did she have any URs or wrong edges?
 

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
And did she have any URs or wrong edges?

If you and your opponent here had the opportunity to simply go to the ISU website and find and personally see the recording from the monitors of the technical panel at this competition in the archive, you would get a definite answer to this question.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Don't know---I've never seen Tsibinova compete anywhere, or Safanova, who won Volvo last week and is competing again this weekend in Warsaw.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
And did she have any URs or wrong edges?

Often, those 'mid range' skaters that stayed out of the spotlights as juniors have developed the best and cleanest skills when spending full hours at the rink and working with committed trainers.

No big ultra-si tricks to throw but solid and dependable classic skating skills and attention to details like edges and posture.
 
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