FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

Alex65 said:

I can not agree with all this. If you are an impressionable person and are afraid of threats, then your place is not in the judicial panel, be it a sports or civil court, but also the police, the army, and even teaching and medicine and much more.
As for the pressure on the judges that they can get, realizing that hundreds of eyes are closely watching their work, it's just ridiculous to me. If they are highly professional, well-trained specialists (and this is a strong argument in any dispute here that is not questioned), then public control over their work can't stop them from doing their job. After all, football or basketball referees somehow manage in the arenas filled with thousands of screaming spectators and no one demands that the spectators not make noise there.

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I hope Karne doesn’t mind me interjecting my opinion here while she’s probably in bed in Australia; I just have my own issues with your points in reply to her. Her original reply, the context of which you sorta ignored, just pointed out the patently obvious fact that working people don’t enjoy being scrutinized and harassed by untrained, interfering, biased, potentially aggressive nobodies while they’re doing their job, and then also that allowing said, ahem, fans to physically access the judges is potentially dangerous (Here I would point out, in response to your first point, that for this reason the judges/referees are separated from the crowd in some way in basically all sports. And courtrooms, actually. You might note that schools and courthouses and hospitals and sporting events have security, precisely because threats *are* a concern.) I don’t think she implied that tech panels couldn’t perform under the usual pressure of, for example, an arena full of passionate and potentially loud fans. She just said that, basically, not liking for people to breathe down the back of your neck while you’re working doesn’t mean you have a god complex, and I agree with her. All of the rest of this is just you projecting.

Alex65 said:

back to the beginning. here is the source:

“Our federation turned to the ISU tech committee with a question about the inconsistency of decisions - they find an edge in some, not in others. Some other errors.

The new system of plus five - minus five allows more use of opportunities from judges, so judging has become more subjective, " said Kogan.

This is about the inconsistency of decisions of tech panel decisions in one competition. This is not about different panels in different competitions. Just clarified.

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The more I read about the petition to the ISU, the more it seems like just a shotgun blast -- scatter your bullets and you might hit something.

If the issue is inconsistent calls by a tech panel, then the question of judges having more leeway in assigning GOEs is not really relevant.

Plus, it is not clear what the Russian Federation is expecting or hoping the ISU will do. "Look into inconsistent judging." OK, says the ISU, we looked into inconsistent judging. We thank the Russian Federation for its concern and will go forward continuing to offer fair judging to all.

Or maybe they will ask the tech specialist at Cup of China, why did you give a ! to Shcherbakova but not to Tuktamysheva. The tech specialist replies, when I looked at Shcherbakova's Lutz edges, they seemed unclear. When I looked at Tuktamysheva's, they looked OK. (Thank you very much for your testimony, Tech Specialist. End of "investigation.")

I've avoided discussion and haven't read anything but...

Zagitova's edge call was wrong IMO... ! at the most from the replay angle and there was a fancam which pretty well showed it was an outside edge.

I didn't watch Shcherbakova's last performance except for the highlight the ISU posted, but her quad lutz is IMO on an outside edge... but the angle showed a front outside edge and the rules specifically say back outside though I've never noticed that being enforced.. Her 4Lz at Lombardia looked completely fine from the straight ahead angle. Her triple lutz has been flatter than her quad lutz.

A lot of the underrotation calls it seems like if it's in the 70-80% range and it's kind of a bad landing then it will get an underrotation call...

As figure skating becomes more popular in Russia, it seems people feel the need to say more and more bombastic comments which is feeding into not a great attitude.

It really is time to start investing in computerized judging for rotations and edges though it will probably take a decade to get there. The individual federations may have to step in take the initiative. There are some AI researchers and other academics who might be willing to tackle the problem. It should be tackled from two different directions... one that relies purely on visual data and another that relies on boot sensors. The AI judge could be introduced over time as kind of the tiebreaker vote.

Current Replay Systems Not Up To Task of Insuring Accurate Calls: As Many as Twenty Percent of Technical Panel Jump Reviews May Be Wrong
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/commentaries/ReplaySystem.htm

Be sure to look at the graph at the side which talks about the current vs ideal camera conditions. I really hope no major competition is really using 30 frame per second cameras with SD resolution.

In my ideal judging system the technical panel would be purely advisory. I think figure skating would be better off judging things from a higher level rather than trying to count each and every atom of the program. The current system has it's positives, but after the 2002 scandal it would have been just as fine to just increase the number of judges at major competitions to 15 and be harder on cheaters... and perhaps disallowing judges from medal contenders from judging events.

It just seems a bit amusing to me that the Russian Fed has got its drawers all in a bunch because two of their skaters who made the CoC podium got (oh my!) URs and edge calls.

I'm sure we'll see lots of URs and edge calls at Rostelecom, but have my doubts any will be called on the home skaters.

I don’t care about any political angles on this one. It doesn’t interest me in the least.

My biggest gripe about judging has always been the blatant inconsistency not only from event to event but even within the same events at times. Don’t care who brought it up nor am I interested in trying to find sinister motive behind it. I say about time. They need to know that we know and thank god people with some actual say in the sport are choosing to say something

Hopefully other feds will make similar complaints when they feel it’s warranted in the future and we can chip away at the acceptable norms that pass as today’s judging standards

I think one issue with the judging is that no one really contests the scores or the judging during the competition. Unlike other competitions/games, anyone in the team/coach can contest the call/result and can immediately ask that a video footage be checked. So that's why at least the judging is reviewed on the spot and corrected. Ironically, despite having video footage and even slow mo footage in ice skating, I feel the footage are just not reviewed properly so some skaters get away with the wrong or questionable edges, under rotation, downgrade, pre-rotation, etc. Which component gets reviewed is also very dependent on the technical panel which is always changing.

In the end I would like the judging to be fair to all regardless of federation or background.

Alex65 said:

I can not agree with all this. If you are an impressionable person and are afraid of threats,

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Ha, this reeks of "look at me, I'm a big tough guy! I'm not afraid of nuffin!"

(by the way, most people have a fear reaction to threats. That's kind of how humans survived the evolutionary process).

Alex65 said:

then your place is not in the judicial panel, be it a sports or civil court, but also the police, the army, and even teaching and medicine and much more.

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Did you really just compare volunteer officiating of a sport to the police and army?

Alex65 said:

As for the pressure on the judges that they can get, realizing that hundreds of eyes are closely watching their work, it's just ridiculous to me.

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Judges know hundreds of eyes watch their work and it does not bother them. But having those hundreds of eyes scattered around the rink is an altogether different equation to having the fanbase literally looking over your shoulder.

Alex65 said:

After all, football or basketball referees somehow manage in the arenas filled with thousands of screaming spectators and no one demands that the spectators not make noise there.

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And yet football and basketball referees are kept away from the public by security guards before, during and after a game. You can't get close to them. You certainly can't be right behind them breathing down their neck. Plus, football and basketball referees can move. Panels cannot.

Like it or not we have had skaters bombarded with death threats and abuse because they dare to skate well. And now you want to give the fans access to the technical panel. Yeah, I can't see that ending well. It ends poorly enough at club comps as it is with coaches and parents and skaters screaming at panel members; what the psycho fans at big internationals might do I shudder to think.

In fact, it might even have the reverse effect. Let's say you're working on a panel at an event in a country known for a rabid fanbase that sends death threats and abuse whenever something happens they don't like. This fanbase particularly hates a certain nationality of skaters. They're sitting behind you, breathing down your neck. You already called the home country skater for two URs and an edge. The skater of certain nationality has gone and you are reviewing, and can't find any URs, and think the edge is only !. It means the skater of certain nationality for sure will go ahead of the home skater. But sitting just behind you, breathing down your neck, close enough to physically assault you, are the rabid fans that send death threats.

Go on, tough guy. Tell me how well you would really go in that scenario.

Yeah I do not think judges/tech panels should have to be put through the insanity that goes on.

I not understand that "don't like getting threats then you're no good at your job" attitude... what the...

Skaters themselves receive threats and they don't stop skating

Although... I do think it contributed to the end of Sotnikova's career, even when she did comeback to competition one season it was only in Russia.
That poor girl was 17 when she had thousands of people threatening her and her family with death and all kinds of horrible things.

Alena Kostornaia, who is only 16, seems to have attracted a perverted stalker in recent months that has required extra security for her.

NOBODY should have to deal with that #$@% just because of what they do for a living, nobody.

I've seen some pretty disgusting stuff on social media directed at judges and tech panels, I fear for their safety too!

karne said:

Ha, this reeks of "look at me, I'm a big tough guy! I'm not afraid of nuffin!"

(by the way, most people have a fear reaction to threats. That's kind of how humans survived the evolutionary process).



Did you really just compare volunteer officiating of a sport to the police and army?



Judges know hundreds of eyes watch their work and it does not bother them. But having those hundreds of eyes scattered around the rink is an altogether different equation to having the fanbase literally looking over your shoulder.



And yet football and basketball referees are kept away from the public by security guards before, during and after a game. You can't get close to them. You certainly can't be right behind them breathing down their neck. Plus, football and basketball referees can move. Panels cannot.

Like it or not we have had skaters bombarded with death threats and abuse because they dare to skate well. And now you want to give the fans access to the technical panel. Yeah, I can't see that ending well. It ends poorly enough at club comps as it is with coaches and parents and skaters screaming at panel members; what the psycho fans at big internationals might do I shudder to think.

In fact, it might even have the reverse effect. Let's say you're working on a panel at an event in a country known for a rabid fanbase that sends death threats and abuse whenever something happens they don't like. This fanbase particularly hates a certain nationality of skaters. They're sitting behind you, breathing down your neck. You already called the home country skater for two URs and an edge. The skater of certain nationality has gone and you are reviewing, and can't find any URs, and think the edge is only !. It means the skater of certain nationality for sure will go ahead of the home skater. But sitting just behind you, breathing down your neck, close enough to physically assault you, are the rabid fans that send death threats.

Go on, tough guy. Tell me how well you would really go in that scenario.

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And also in the training, education of adolescents and many others. The feeling of fear is natural for any person; arguing with this is stupid. The ability to step over your own fear - this distinguishes an adult with life experience from a child who is carefully taken care of by his family. The referee panel in the FS is open to spectators, the names of the judges are known, each spectator can see the protocol of the competition and express his opinion, yes, sometimes this is anger and irritation. Nothing special: different people - different reactions. Why does the technical panel hide its arguments? Come on, show everyone how, you judge. Judge with an open mind and everything will be in order.
I feel a misunderstanding of my thoughts. I did not mean to place hundreds of furious spectators directly behind the judges of the technical panel. I apologize if I inaccurately formulated my thoughts and translated. If it is more convenient for judges to work, they may be in a separate room. Like VAR orbiters in football. I do not care. I just wanted to say that the process of their work, namely video views and there may be a decision-making process, on the basis of which the judges make their assessments, should be available for the control of the interested public. Let not live, even in the recording as an annex to the protocols. Why is it hiding as a state secret?

Alex65 said:

And also in the training, education of adolescents and many others. The feeling of fear is natural for any person; arguing with this is stupid. The ability to step over your own fear - this distinguishes an adult with life experience from a child who is carefully taken care of by his family.

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Wow, now that is insulting. If you cant get over a fear of something you're not an adult... you are nothing but a sheltered child.

No, just No

The referee panel in the FS is open to spectators, the names of the judges are known, each spectator can see the protocol of the competition and express his opinion, yes, sometimes this is anger and irritation. Nothing special: different people - different reactions. Why does the technical panel hide its arguments? Come on, show everyone how, you judge. Judge with an open mind and everything will be in order.
I feel a misunderstanding of my thoughts. I did not mean to place hundreds of furious spectators directly behind the judges of the technical panel. I apologize if I inaccurately formulated my thoughts and translated. If it is more convenient for judges to work, they may be in a separate room. Like VAR orbiters in football. I do not care. I just wanted to say that the process of their work, namely video views and there may be a decision-making process, on the basis of which the judges make their assessments, should be available for the control of the interested public. Let not live, even in the recording as an annex to the protocols. Why is it hiding as a state secret?

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State secret?

The judging is as transparent as had ever been, judges are named (and shamed), protocols are made public for anyone to see.

I do not understand what more do you want or what it is you're really asking for?

You seem to want these people to be interrogated for every decision they make, no judge/referee of any sport is subjected to the same extreme scrutiny you are expecting.

Mishaminion said:

State secret?

The judging is as transparent as had ever been, judges are named (and shamed), protocols are made public for anyone to see.

I do not understand what more do you want or what it is you're really asking for?

You seem to want these people to be interrogated for every decision they make, no judge/referee of any sport is subjected to the same extreme scrutiny you are expecting.

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And yet one of the most frequent arguments during the recent days was "tech panel has better angles we can't see"

Another quote from Kogan:

"I really hope that refereeing at our stage will be more objective than at some other stages. I hope that we will see not only excellent skating, but also objective refereeing," Kogan said at a press conference.
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From: https://rsport.ria.ru/20191112/1560837612.html

There was a pre-competition press conference at FFKKR, must find the transcripts: https://fsrussia.ru/press-tsentr/47...tapa-gran-pri-kubok-rostelekoma-v-moskve.html

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We hope so too.... we hope so too.

flanker said:

And yet one of the most frequent arguments during the recent days was "tech panel has better angles we can't see"

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I can’t remember for whom these words are a favorite argument in the topic of Russian ladies ......

flanker said:

And yet one of the most frequent arguments during the recent days was "tech panel has better angles we can't see"

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That's clearly not the case though, viewers can access many more, even days after the events.

Mishaminion said:

That's clearly not the case though, viewers can access many more, even days after the events.

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So that argument about judges having some views we don't is not relevant. Thank you.

bahahaha... what about ice dance??? yeah.. i know... :sarcasm:

Sam-Skwantch said:

My biggest gripe about judging has always been the blatant inconsistency not only from event to event but even within the same events at times.

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Another quote from Kogan.

"I really hope that refereeing at our stage will be more objective than at some other stages. I hope that we will see not only excellent skating, but also objective refereeing," Kogan said at a press conference.

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To me, all this is a big yawn. We want better judging. I want to be rich. People in Hell want ice water.

Where are the actual proposals for how to accomplish these goals, besides Mr. Kogan "really hoping"?

In 2002 dissatisfaction with the 6.0 system boiled over when some people thought that Sale and Pelletier were robbed by the crooked judging panel. The ISU's solution was to put the Interim Judging System in place for the 2002-2003 season. This was 6.0 with anonymous judging. Was this better?

After that they phased in the CoP (later called the IJS, and eventually, after many seasons, getting rid 0f anonymous judging). With the IJS, instead of judges making determinations, now there will be a technical panel. Judges are crooks but technical specialists are pure. Now we will give 4.20 points (originally 4.0) for a triple toe, but reduce it by 80% if it is called as under-rotated, rather than having the judges come to a consensus of the overall technical and artistic merit of the performance. Was this a step toward fairer judging?

I don't think it matters what kind of system of judging there is in place, people will whine, complain, protest and generally never be satisfied with it.

Because figure skating is a subjectively judged sport, we have our opinions and ideas how to do it. Feds, judges, tech panels, fans... so much disagreement to make even a majority happy.

Mishaminion said:

I don't think it matters what kind of system of judging there is in place, people will whine, complain, protest and generally never be satisfied with it.

Because just like subjectively judged sports, we have our opinions and ideas how to do it.

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That is the question, though. Do we really have opinions and ideas about how to do it?

Or is it just the whining part?

Kogan cares more about his beloved ones rather than consistent and objective judging.