FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women | Page 8 | Golden Skate

FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
So let's say there's a Technical program that allows 5, 6, or 7 jump elements including combinations, with any number of rotations, as well as other difficult technical skills, and another kind of program that de-emphasizes difficulty and emphasizes quality and variety/creativity? Which would make a more appropriate first phase of competition and which a more appropriate final round?

Maybe different competitions could switch off the order.

There is a problem if you part "difficult technical skills" and "quality". I don't accept this view, where technical content of the program is something nearly undesirable. Tech content means quality as well. That's why I am also against the division of figure skating on technical and artistic programs. It works together, not divided. I'm not for a competition where only personal taste would decide what is artistic, creative etc.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But still by having two programs adds more suspense.

Not really. So far in the ladies Grand Prix the Short Program has been totally irrelevant to the outcome. In every event, the winner of the long program won hugely overall, no matter where they placed in the SP.

At Skate America Anna Shcherbaova was only 4th best in the SP, but -- yawn -- "everybody knew" she would do two quads in the LP and that would be that. At Skate Canada, Alexandra Trusova was only third in the SP. Still, the contest was over as soon as she submitted her jump card for the LP. We could have just gone straight to the LP without the bother of having an SP at all.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Not really. So far in the ladies Grand Prix the Short Program has been totally irrelevant to the outcome. In every event, the winner of the long program won hugely overall, no matter where they placed in the SP.

At Skate America Anna Shcherbaova was only 4th best in the SP, but -- yawn -- "everybody knew" she would do two quads in the LP and that would be that. At Skate Canada, Alexandra Trusova was only third in the SP. Still, the contest was over as soon as she submitted her jump card for the LP. We could have just gone straight to the LP without the bother of having an SP at all.

Let's wait for the GPF, there the SP will matter more. Also just because we are in a transitional season with quads and a significant technical gap introduced out of sudden, doesn't mean that this will be the case in subsequent seasons.
 

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
Tbh there isn’t a conspiracy. It’s just a rule that is a relic of the past where, as many have explained, the SP had strict rules about what jumps you could do. The only reason it was allowed for men was because increasing numbers of men could do quads.

It was literally last season that the first female quad was landed in senior competition. This is despite Miki Ando landing one quite some time ago as a junior.

The rules will change eventually but it’s unlikely to do so until 2022 as with most major changes.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
There is a problem if you part "difficult technical skills" and "quality". I don't accept this view, where technical content of the program is something nearly undesirable. Tech content means quality as well. That's why I am also against the division of figure skating on technical and artistic programs. It works together, not divided. I'm not for a competition where only personal taste would decide what is artistic, creative etc.

Neither am I

I like all the elements of skating put together, very much including jumps. That is figure skating and always has been in a way, no matter how many revolutions in the air there are.

And once you start to separate all the elements, where do you draw the line?
Some skaters have amazing spins and some do not so we have to create a separate program just for spins?
Some are better at steps so let's create one for the steps too?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That would be one way to reward skaters who Excel at non jump skills. Give small medals for best jumps and for best spins, etc., And ALSO give the main medal for best overall skater via well balanced program.

The problem is that the current rules are significantly unbalanced in favor of jumps and especially in favor of number of rotations in the air. Build in more opportunities to earn points with difficult technical skills on the ice, and we'd see the all around talented competitors pushing limits in multiple directions not only in the air, and we'd see some skaters who have the potential to excel in ice but the wrong body type to rotate four times in the air have reason to pursue excellence and envelope pushing in those areas rather than quitting in frustration.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
That would be one way to reward skaters who Excel at non jump skills. Give small medals for best jumps and for best spins, etc., And ALSO give the main medal for best overall skater via well balanced program.

The problem is that the current rules are significantly unbalanced in favor of jumps and especially in favor of number of rotations in the air. Build in more opportunities to earn points with difficult technical skills on the ice, and we'd see the all around talented competitors pushing limits in multiple directions not only in the air, and we'd see some skaters who have the potential to excel in ice but the wrong body type to rotate four times in the air have reason to pursue excellence and envelope pushing in those areas rather than quitting in frustration.

I do not feel that jumps are favoured more so than they were 15-20 years ago. Women jumped 7, even 8 triple programs, a couple even had 3As and often won when they landed them.

So why should it change now? Makes no sense to me.

Also, I do not believe it is unbalanced in favour of them.
Not when skaters like Miyahara are winning medals despite having terrible UR jumps like hers. I admire her artistry but I cant with the jumps...
Or Carolina Kostner who was consistently held up when making multiple jump errors.

Why should we favour these types of skaters over the ones who excell in jumps?

Every skater is different, have their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't want to watch programs that are focused on one skill, it would be horribly boring and samey.

I've always seen the jumps and the athletic skill as vitally important to figure skating being even considered a sport.
To put their routines together (like gymnastics) with a decent degree of presentation and artistry.
Anything more than that is icing on the cake. Some excell at the artistic side, others the athletic side.

I don't want categories for defining what is artistry and what isn't either. My idea of what looks good to me will not be someone else's... and so on and so on.
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Not really. So far in the ladies Grand Prix the Short Program has been totally irrelevant to the outcome. In every event, the winner of the long program won hugely overall, no matter where they placed in the SP.

At Skate America Anna Shcherbaova was only 4th best in the SP, but -- yawn -- "everybody knew" she would do two quads in the LP and that would be that. At Skate Canada, Alexandra Trusova was only third in the SP. Still, the contest was over as soon as she submitted her jump card for the LP. We could have just gone straight to the LP without the bother of having an SP at all.

Oh yes, because it was totally a given that Anna was going to land two clean quad lutzes and win, there was no suspense there. Totally. :slink:

And the overall results have not always been the same as the freeskate results. Canada, France, China, none of the freeskate results matched the overall results. The winners did, but not second and third. So yes, the short program does play a part in it.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Not really. So far in the ladies Grand Prix the Short Program has been totally irrelevant to the outcome. In every event, the winner of the long program won hugely overall, no matter where they placed in the SP.

At Skate America Anna Shcherbaova was only 4th best in the SP, but -- yawn -- "everybody knew" she would do two quads in the LP and that would be that. At Skate Canada, Alexandra Trusova was only third in the SP. Still, the contest was over as soon as she submitted her jump card for the LP. We could have just gone straight to the LP without the bother of having an SP at all.

Not really. It doesn't matter only in situation you don't bomb your SP and have a huge weapon in LP. So far it applies to only two skaters in the world. The rest is just the old traditional dynamics of SP+LP.
 

MarkinBerkeley

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 22, 2019
Not really. So far in the ladies Grand Prix the Short Program has been totally irrelevant to the outcome. In every event, the winner of the long program won hugely overall, no matter where they placed in the SP.

At Skate America Anna Shcherbaova was only 4th best in the SP, but -- yawn -- "everybody knew" she would do two quads in the LP and that would be that. At Skate Canada, Alexandra Trusova was only third in the SP. Still, the contest was over as soon as she submitted her jump card for the LP. We could have just gone straight to the LP without the bother of having an SP at all.

A big mistake (or two) in the short can ruin your chances to win. But sure, it's very easy to make up points with quads and triple axels in the long program.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
A big mistake (or two) in the short can ruin your chances to win. But sure, it's very easy to make up points with quads and triple axels in the long program.

It is if you can land them

Young You bombed her short at CoC and couldn't land her 3A in the FS either.

The Eteri girls remarkable consistency might look easy but they train super hard to get those incredible jumps stable and (mostly) consistent. They have success rates higher than many men, it truly is remarkable.

But just because they make it look easy, doesn't mean it is.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
There is a problem if you part "difficult technical skills" and "quality". I don't accept this view, where technical content of the program is something nearly undesirable. Tech content means quality as well. That's why I am also against the division of figure skating on technical and artistic programs.

This is a desirable goal, and it is the goal that figure skating has always striven for. But I think that where the problem comes in is with the add-up-the-points judging system. There just does not seem to be any way adequately to reward "quality" in comparison with the number of points you get just from throwing up a quad any old way without regard to quality.

Not to mention the problem of, what do we mean by "technical skills" and how they should be rewarded. A mediocre quad Lutz (0 GOE) givrs you 11.50 points. This is more than a skater can earn by doing a level 4 Upright spin (2.40), a level 4 Layback spin (2.70) a level 4 Camel Spin (2.60) and a level 4 Sit Spin combined. A skater would be a fool to waste time learning how to spin.

To me, there does not seem to be any escape under the current competition set-up. I do not see any alternative to giving huge points to the huge jumps. And there we are.
 
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lusterfan

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
I have not followed the sport long enough to say, but are there any elements that could be as difficult as jumps? Just making things up: crazier spin positions, more complex step sequences, other possible technical elements not yet explored?

Jumps are insanely difficult and are rewarded as such, but figure skating even in its name isn't only about jumps. It would be a shame if the sport became (even more of) a jumping game, to the point where the spins, the steps, the speed/flow/programs no longer matter in the numbers game. I want all the quads, but I also want other intricacies that showcase athleticism and artistry to be rewarded in a balanced way. That's what makes figure skating a wonder to watch!

As a comparison, I think artistic gymnastics is more popular than tumbling gymnastics because artistic gymnastics is not a raw display of tumbling elements. There's a mixture of artistry, choreography, and composed routines. I feel as though figure skating might be losing the artistic side and leaning more towards a sport of raw jumping (tumbling).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I have not followed the sport long enough to say, but are there any elements that could be as difficult as jumps? Just making things up: crazier spin positions, more complex step sequences, other possible technical elements not yet explored?

Good question.

But to tell the truth, I am not a big fan of crazy spin positions or of step sequences so busy that any connection to the music or choreography is lost. I think the same question of quality versus quantity would remain unresolved. For step sequences the requirement "commitment of the whole body" produces sequences where the skaters bob and writhe to no esthetic purpose (quite the contrary).

In the best of all possible worlds there ought to be an opportunity for skaters to develop programs where the technical elements are judged by how well they serve the concept of the work as a whole, instead of 2 points for this and 3 points for that willy-nilly. I miss pro skating.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I have not followed the sport long enough to say, but are there any elements that could be as difficult as jumps? Just making things up: crazier spin positions, more complex step sequences, other possible technical elements not yet explored?

Jumps are insanely difficult and are rewarded as such, but figure skating even in its name isn't only about jumps. It would be a shame if the sport became (even more of) a jumping game, to the point where the spins, the steps, the speed/flow/programs no longer matter in the numbers game. I want all the quads, but I also want other intricacies that showcase athleticism and artistry to be rewarded in a balanced way. That's what makes figure skating a wonder to watch!

As a comparison, I think artistic gymnastics is more popular than tumbling gymnastics because artistic gymnastics is not a raw display of tumbling elements. There's a mixture of artistry, choreography, and composed routines. I feel as though figure skating might be losing the artistic side and leaning more towards a sport of raw jumping (tumbling).

It will never just be a jumping game as long as something like PCS exists. And even the less artistic skaters do the best they can to present their programs well. I don't think any of the top skaters are terrible at it, they have not got where they are now by being that bad in other aspects of figure skating.

The spins and steps even some of the more jump focused skaters do pretty well with these, again because their basic skills are fine, not necessarily the best but good enough.

Tuktamysheva loses a lot of points in spins, steps and PCS, so much so that even her arsenal of 3As isn't really enough, and not just against those equipped with quads.

Trusova, I do not feel is all jumps, she has a lot of other qualities and I think some people are very unfair to her when they dismiss her as simply a jumping bean. She has a very unique and powerful style, and is still developing her performance skills alongside her jumps. She has noticeably improved in many areas in the last couple of years and continues to do so, she's not content to rely solely on her jumps or she wouldn't be bothering to improve elsewhere.

She lacks flexibility compared to some of her Eteri teammates but that's okay, flexibility can be over emphasized. One of the few things I dislike about Shcherbakova's programs is the number of times she lifts her leg straight up, it is just way too much...I do not find this artistic, I find it awkward to have a teenager's (or any aged woman) scantily clad crotch thrust into my face (via a screen luckily, god knows how the judges feel) at every opportunity tbh
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Trusova, I do not feel is all jumps, she has a lot of other qualities and I think some people are very unfair to her when they dismiss her as simply a jumping bean.

To me, though, that is not really the question. Yes, Trusova's skating has many sterling qualities.

But the crises is not in evaluating Trusova, it lies with the scoring system.

In the LP at Skate Canada, Trusova scored 72.30 in jump base value. She scored 16.10 in base value for all other elements combined.

She got 8.5s in Program Components, and good for her! But she would have won just the same if she had gotten 7.5s. If she had gotten 6.5s she still would have won the LP, even falling on her opening jump. It's not that Alexandra Trusova is "just a jumping bean," it is that the ISU scoring system has become lop-sidedly jumping beany.
 

rollerblade

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
It's not that Alexandra Trusova is "just a jumping bean," it is that the ISU scoring system has become lop-sidedly jumping beany.

She could have done jumps only and nothing else.... and still out-TES the 2nd place lady.
That is including the fall on 4S.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
This is a desirable goal, and it is the goal that figure skating has always striven for. But I think that where the problem comes in is with the add-up-the-points judging system. There just does not seem to be any way adequately to reward "quality" in comparison with the number of points you get just from throwing up a quad any old way without regard to quality.

Not to mention the problem of, what do we mean by "technical skills" and how they should be rewarded. A mediocre quad Lutz (0 GOE) givrs you 11.50 points. This is more than a skater can earn by doing a level 4 Upright spin (2.40), a level 4 Layback spin (2.70) a level 4 Camel Spin (2.60) and a level 4 Sit Spin combined. A skater would be a fool to waste time learning how to spin.

To me, there does not seem to be any escape under the current competition set-up. I do not see any alternative to giving huge points to the huge jumps. And there we are.

You are still talking as if quads were reserved only for two or three ladies vs. the rest. Those who do quads still compete against each other and soon there will be much more of themn. Every point is necessary still as it was anytime before. And, of coure, precisely those who do quads now are those who do most of the non-jumping elements on the highest level, so there is no point in the claim that they would neglect spins or whatever.

Still don't understand why people are ignoring men cathegory. Quads celebrated some 30 (note edited, somehow I've missted the "0") years anniversary recently and I don't think it lead to the devalaulation of spins or step sequences. Why there shouls be different standards or expectations for ladies than for men.
 
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