FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

MissBeeFarm said:

What I never understand is why they banned it in the first place, when it wasn't even an issue?

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The reason is historical, and has to do with the purpose of the short program in the first place.

The Short Program (then called the Technical Program) was instituted in 1973 as the first step in weening the sport away from the emphasis on compulsory figures. Before there was a short program, the two phases of a skating competition were technical (figures) and free skating, with scoring rules favoring the "technicians."

The ISU came up with the idea of a "technical program" where all the skaters would do exactly the same elements (just like all skaters traced the same figures) and would be judged on who did these required elements the best. Obviously you would not include an element that could not be done at all except by one or two competitors.

Time marches on. Now the short program is just a shorter version of the long program. The idea of, "OK, now everybody do a sit spin and a double flip and we'll see see who does it best" -- that's out the window. But still, this historical ghost lingers when short program rules are discussed.

I think this proposal has a pretty good chance of passing. The modern view of figure skating is, rack up the points with hard jumps. I really do not see any reason except inertia and nostalgia for keeping quads out of the short program.

Definition of ‘Woman’ is an “Adult human female”
Definition of ‘Adult’ is ‘ a person who is fully developed or grown’

I don't know if it will pass but I think it should.

But I also want them to fix the PCS scoring so..

Also.. I wonder how much of this is bargaining. If there is a push the raise the age limit (which I also don't agree with) then maybe there is a trade off going on. We will agree not to included quads in the short if you don't vote to increase the age limit. That is how negotiations work after all.

Mathman said:

I really do not see any reason except inertia and nostalgia for keeping quads out of the short program.

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:thumbsup:

It's just a proposal, we'll have to wait until 2020 for any motion to pass, and then for it becoming effective, FFKKR probably wants quads in the SP already by the 2022 Bejing Olympics.

If competitive quads are limited to only one federation, the chance of a majority vote on that motion is small, IMO.

ancientpeas said:

I don't know if it will pass but I think it should.

But I also want them to fix the PCS scoring so..

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Agreed. Quads will need to be allowed with time. The sooner they are allowed, the sooner they will become the norm for women. They are capable of performing them, they just didn't need them until now. PCS factoring should change for women's skating as well.

Well, I think it's pretty realistic to expect quads to be allowed after 2022. By that time there could be 10-15 senior ladies with clean landings or close attempts. It could be allowed earlier if at least 5-6 seniors land it this season, but so far we have only 2 ladies who have landed them consistently and more than once. Up until the end there can be 4 (Anna S, Sasha T, Elizabet T and Rika K). I wonder how many men were landing quads by the time they were allowed on the SP though.

On a personal level, I do not enjoy the quadster ladies. I think they all skate like Juniors, only with bigger tricks.

That said, this is a basic issue of competitive equality.

If men are allowed, women should be allowed.

Eventually, the day will come when a woman can combine great quad jumps with inspiring skating skills. Trying to put the quad genie back in the bottle isn't going to work. It will only delay the arrival of that anticipated event.

KRIKIC08 said:

Is there any real good reason to not allow quads and quints in both programms ?

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As of now, there are no point values for quints -- they're not disallowed in freeskates (there would be no "illegal element" deduction), but they wouldn't earn points or would be scored as bad quads so there's no point in doing them. There are no skaters who have successfully shown that they can land them in practice, though a few have made attempts.

On the one hand there's not much incentive for skaters to practice difficult moves they would get no reward for in competition. On the other hand, there's not much point in allowing elements in competition that no one has ever completed successfully.

Backflips and variations thereof are not allowed in competition, but skaters learn them to challenge themselves and to wow audiences in show programs.

If it gets to the point where a handful of skaters are doing all the quads including quad axel and have gotten bored with that, they might start trying quints at their home rinks to show how they can push the envelope. If they get fairly consistent with them, they might start doing them in isolation in shows to show off for audiences. Once it's demonstrated that quints are clearly possible (even if not yet perfected), then the ISU would probably give them point values in the SoV.

Short program jump requirements have never been raised based on what only one or two skaters have managed to accomplish, for either men or women (or pairs), but after there have been multiple skaters doing something in the freeskate then the ISU starts to think about allowing them in the short program.


However, the other reason for not to rushing to add jump difficulty, especially with high point values under IJS, is to maintain the balance among different kinds of skills. The point values of quads are so much higher than anything else that's allowed in either program that the ISU may be wary of introducing rules that would allow skaters to build up huge leads on jump content that would allow them to slack off on all the other relevant skills and still win based on difficult jumps alone.

How to keep the actual skating relevant in skating competitions would always be a consideration.

There might be several different possible approaches to supporting athletes who are able to push the envelope on aerial skills and also to maintain appropriate value for on-ice skills. But until they come up with a viable plan to maintain that balance, simply giving the aerialists even more incentive to prioritize what happens in the air over what happens on the ice is not the best approach to maintaining skating as skating.

NaVi said:

I'm completely opposed for at least a couple more Olympic seasons. 2031 at the earliest. It would really screw up the competitive balance. A triple axel is an advantage but not a huge one and one that can easily be overcame by someone with two separate quads.

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Let me state a few reasons.

We have seen skaters of a much wider range of body types land 3A than have landed a quad. Young You is 5'5, Mao Asada is 5'4, Ludmila Nelidina is 5'4, Kimmie Meissner is 5'4, Mirai Nagasu is 5'3. Almost but not quite half of the skaters who have landed a 3A are of around average female height. The average for all skaters who have landed a triple axel is probably around 5'1.5 while the average height of those who have landed a quad is around 4'11. There have also been skaters who were not completely stick thin who have landed a 3A while that's pretty much necessary to land a quad. The more you restrict on body types the less competition there will be, less exciting events, less investment from parents, and less popular appeal.

Frankly, from a game perspective(and figure skating should be considered a game rather than pure sport like track and field) things are well balanced right now. The 3A advantage can be nipped at. 3Lz+3Lo can get you a point advantage in both programs. A quad combo gets you another point over 3A+2T because it saves a jump pass for a double axel. I'm not a fan of the new underrotation rules though(I wish they'd have 3 levels: Good, Poor, Underrotated) because too many 70-80% jumps are getting the full underrotation call. This reduces the value of the 3Lz+3Lo which is nice to have to neutralize the 3A.

What I like about the SP is that I find most skaters perform it better because there is more time between jump passes... but some of that is going to be lost if more time is used to setup quads. Quads in the SP currently would mean running up the score which could make for less interesting competitions. Far better to have the quadster 5-8 points back and have them roaring back in the LP.

Allowing quads in the SP leads towards the further unisexification of figure skating which I oppose. A process that began with getting rid of spiral sequences.

gkelly said:

However, the other reason for not to rush to add jump difficulty, especially with high point values under IJS, is to maintain the balance among different kinds of skills. The point values of quads are so much higher than anything else that's allowed in either program that the ISU may be wary of introducing rules that would allow skaters to build up huge leads on jump content that would allow them to slack off on all the other relevant skills and still win based on difficult jumps alone.

How to keep the actual skating relevant in skating competitions would always be a consideration.

There might be several different possible approaches to supporting athletes who are able to push the envelope on aerial skills and also to maintain appropriate value for on-ice skills. But until they come up with a viable plan to maintain that balance, simply giving the aerialists even more incentive to prioritize what happens in the air over what happens on the ice is not the best approach to maintaining skating as skating.

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By factoring components the same as with men

If it passes, it should not take effect until after the 2022 Olympics. All skaters look ahead to the next Olympics with their training and elements. We are now almost half way into the next Olympic cycle. Pass it going forward and everyone capable can have four years to train quads for the next Olympics.

ancientpeas said:

Also.. I wonder how much of this is bargaining. If there is a push the raise the age limit (which I also don't agree with) then maybe there is a trade off going on. We will agree not to included quads in the short if you don't vote to increase the age limit. That is how negotiations work after all.

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I think Russian Skating federation already gave an opinion on the subject that it's fine to raise the age limit to 16+. However i didn't find USA federation saying something about it, so..

Baron Vladimir said:

By factoring components the same as with men

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I think that this would not have as much of an effect as it might seem.

For instance, in the Skate Canada short program the PCSs of the leaders were

Kihira 71.35
You 78.22
Trusova 74.40

Kihira leads You by 3.13 poins and Trusova by 6.95

With men's factoring it would have been

Kihira 101.69
You 97.78
Trusova 93.00

Now Kihira leads You by 3.91 points and Trusova by 8.69

Kihira would gain only 0.78 and 1.74 over her competitors if they had used men's factoring. One quad Lutz has base value 11.50.

gkelly said:

How to keep the actual skating relevant in skating competitions would always be a consideration.

There might be several different possible approaches to supporting athletes who are able to push the envelope on aerial skills and also to maintain appropriate value for on-ice skills. ...

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The more I look at the numbers, the more I feel that this battle has been lost and cannot be re-fought under any tweaking of the rules. Quads get lots of points. I do not see how it could be otherwise, just like a pole vaulter gets more credit if he jumps 18 feet than if he jumps 17.

The only scenario where the desired balance would come into play is if everyone was doing multiple quads and getting 100 points in TES base value. Then maybe getting 9.5 in PCSs instead of 8.5 would make a difference as a tie-breaker.

This dilemma may eventually drive interest in the separate "Technical Program" and "Artistic Program" suggestion. I don't know.

TontoK said:

Trying to put the quad genie back in the bottle isn't going to work.

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I think that's the bottom line. You can't tell an athlete, you are better than everyone else, therefore you must compete with one hand tied behind your back.

Mathman said:

I think that's the bottom line. You can't tell an athlete, you are better than everyone else, therefore you must compete with one hand tied behind your back.

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Half of these proposals just seem like attempts to prevent those athletes winning.
Allowing quads in the SP for ladies would stir that particular wasps nest to a frenzy.

Although I support it. Can't see why they shouldn't be allowed. Very few ladies do a 3A instead of a 2A and yet it is allowed in SP. Although it did take years for it to be permitted as a replacement for the 2A. Before than it had to be part of the combination, similar to how Alyssa Liu is doing in Juniors.

Mathman said:

This dilemma may eventually drive interest in the separate "Technical Program" and "Artistic Program" suggestion. I don't know.

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The introduction of "artistic" program will be the ultimate joke and hypocrisy. There are gala programs and commercial shows. Those who watch figure skating for pure artistry are welcome there. It is impossible to bring whatever reasonable level of objective analysis to artistry. It's like creating a panel of judges to give relative scores to "the artistry" of Leonardo's Madonna vs. The Black Square of Malevich. There are just 2 objective criteria in evaluating artistry: 1) how much people are willing to pay for it today. 2) how long a piece of artistry is relevant to people

[email protected] said:

The introduction of "artistic" program will be the ultimate joke and hypocrisy. There are gala programs and commercial shows. Those who watch figure skating for pure artistry are welcome there. It is impossible to bring whatever reasonable level of objective analysis to artistry. It's like creating a panel of judges to give relative scores to "the artistry" of Leonardo's Madonna vs. The Black Square of Malevich. There are just 2 objective criteria in evaluating artistry: 1) how much people are willing to pay for it today. 2) how long a piece of artistry is relevant to people

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I agree.

Jumps have always been a part of figure skating, no matter the number of revolutions. Compulsory figures were abandoned because they were doing nothing for the sport, and were boring to watch.

The cheers of the crowd when skaters land 3As and quads are the loudest of all, which says a lot.

I do support quads in the SP, but maybe after the next Olympics.

This is so very obviously self-serving. And would tip the scales in favour of Russian women moreso than it already is.

Next thing, they'll be pushing for 5 entries per qualifying country at Euros/Worlds.

Maybe the ISU can add "extra rotation" as a +GOE bullet?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I do support quads in the SP, but maybe after the next Olympics.

This is so very obviously self-serving. And would tip the scales in favour of Russian women moreso than it already is.

Next thing, they'll be pushing for 5 entries per qualifying country at Euros/Worlds.

Maybe the ISU can add "extra rotation" as a +GOE bullet?

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I would love to see 5 entries be able to qualify for worlds!! I’m sure Rus Fed would back this as well. Japan too.