FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women | Page 3 | Golden Skate

FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I do support quads in the SP, but maybe after the next Olympics.

This is so very obviously self-serving. And would tip the scales in favour of Russian women moreso than it already is.

Next thing, they'll be pushing for 5 entries per qualifying country at Euros/Worlds.

Maybe the ISU can add "extra rotation" as a +GOE bullet? :biggrin:

They deserve it to be honest. They're winning anyway, despite the restriction.

Other countries need to catch up, attempts to hold any skaters back by rules seems horribly unfair when they have so much talent.

You wouldn't see this kind of behaviour in other sports.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
By factoring components the same as with men ;)

That would be a good first step in addressing the addition of quads to women's programs, though it wouldn't be enough on its own.

I was talking more about adding quints to the Scale of Values for both sexes, which would unbalance things much more severely if those jumps were given much higher base values than quads and if some skaters could actually rotate them in a program (which might be otherwise empty).

The more I look at the numbers, the more I feel that this battle has been lost and cannot be re-fought under any tweaking of the rules. Quads get lots of points. I do not see how it could be otherwise, just like a pole vaulter gets more credit if he jumps 18 feet than if he jumps 17.

The only scenario where the desired balance would come into play is if everyone was doing multiple quads and getting 100 points in TES base value. Then maybe getting 9.5 in PCSs instead of 8.5 would make a difference as a tie-breaker.

This dilemma may eventually drive interest in the separate "Technical Program" and "Artistic Program" suggestion. I don't know.

I can think of several approaches to maintaining balance in the scoring. I don't know how many are on the ISU's radar. Probably a combination of approaches would be needed.

Raising the PCS factors would help a bit.

Lowering the total number of jumps allowed in the freeskate, while allowing for maximum difficulty, could give incentives for skaters to include their hardest jumps without making the whole strategy about maximizing jump in-air revolutions.

Concurrently, raise the number of blade-to-ice elements, especially edge-based skills.

Separating "technical" and "artistic" programs, or separating jump programs from spin programs from skating programs, could allow skaters who excel in each area to win medals in their areas of strength and skaters who are good at all of the above to place better overall than those who excel in jumps and are deficient elsewhere.

The point values available for jumps, non-jump elements, and PCS could be approximately equal within each program (SP or better-balanced freeskate) or across whole competitions (more points for jumps and to a lesser degree spins in a technical program, more for skating and performance in an artistic program) by adjusting the number of elements in each and also maybe building in ways to push the technical envelope even further on spins and step sequences, and/or making the positive GOEs for those skills worth as much as the positive GOEs for jumps with higher base values.

Or if it's too hard to balance the TES points available for different kinds of skills, then maybe add another layer to the scoring to factor them out.

E.g., if there are separate programs respectively emphasizing technical content and artistry, or separate programs for each type of element, then add up TES and/or PCS to achieve placements in each program and then use factored placements to come up with combined results for the competition as a whole.

Or do something similar within each program. So, e.g., the maximum jump content+quality would earn a 10 for jumps, maximum spin content/quality would earn a 10 for spins, same for steps and pair moves, then add up the score out of 10 for each type of skill, maybe factored so that a 10 in Jumps is worth more than a 10 in Skating Skills or Transitions, but only 2 or 3 times as much, not 5 times as much.

Some of these ideas might not work at all or might need tweaking, but if balancing the value of on-ice skills vs. in-air skills is a priority these could be places to start thinking about how to do so.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I think that this would not have as much of an effect as it might seem.

For instance, in the Skate Canada short program the PCSs of the leaders were

Kihira 71.35
You 78.22
Trusova 74.40

Kihira leads You by 3.13 poins and Trusova by 6.95

With men's factoring it would have been

Kihira 101.69
You 97.78
Trusova 93.00

Now Kihira leads You by 3.91 points and Trusova by 8.69

Kihira would gain only 0.78 and 1.74 over her competitors if they had used men's factoring. One quad Lutz has base value 11.50.

But why whould it help Rika or any other particular skater? If it is working like ISU wants in men discipline, why it wouldn't work with ladies too (btw Rika is learning a quad too, so...) :confused2: Also, to answer to gkelly statement - ISU already removed one jumping pass in free skate and together with no repeating quad rule scores for components these days in free skate are mostly higher than elements scores. Not to say that only part of that elements score are points for jumps, and even less are points for BV of the jumps (and differential of the quads BV). Actually, you can argue that blade to ice skill is more than enough valued in the current scoring system (comparing to what we have 2-5 years ago), taking into consideration that majority of skaters can jump triples and 2A and that jumps are inseparable part of the sport. We can take as an example Alina who can easily score 230+ points or Jason who can easily score 270+ points if they are skating clean. Those are more than respectable numbers and other skaters as Sasha or Boyang need to jump not one clean quad, but 3 to beat them.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I don't understand the raising the PCS factors argument.

Skaters with high PCS are the ones who often place highly despite jump mistakes. Carolina Kostner was frequently rescued by her high PCS, Satoko Miyahara has god awful UR jumps (some called some not) but was second at CoC, that doesn't seem very fair to me either. Alina and Zhenya can make mistakes and still end up with higher placement from their PCS.
If anything a PCS advantage is more valuable than having to jump a bunch of 3As/quads to get ahead
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Maybe in retaliation the isu should look into Eteri,s group methods, I am a believer in Korpi,s statement, before long these young girls will have detrimental affects on there bodies, what’s next from there group a five rotation, this Is not skating...

Ps I would rather watch or Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner, kaetlyn osmond, Kiira korpi, Laura lepisto, fleur maxwell, Satoko Miyahara, mao asada on the ice,

The women’s senior age should be raised to 21,
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I think that this would not have as much of an effect as it might seem.

For instance, in the Skate Canada short program the PCSs of the leaders were

Kihira 71.35
You 78.22
Trusova 74.40

Kihira leads You by 3.13 poins and Trusova by 6.95

With men's factoring it would have been

Kihira 101.69
You 97.78
Trusova 93.00

Now Kihira leads You by 3.91 points and Trusova by 8.69

Kihira would gain only 0.78 and 1.74 over her competitors if they had used men's factoring. One quad Lutz has base value 11.50.

I assume these are total scores, not just PCS scores. And it does appear to make a difference, since Kihira would have been in first place instead of third.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Maybe in retaliation the isu should look into Eteri,s group methods, I am a believer in Korpi,s statement, before long these young girls will have detrimental affects on there bodies, what’s next from there group a five rotation, this Is not skating...

Ps I would rather watch or Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner, kaetlyn osmond, Kiira korpi, Laura lepisto, fleur maxwell, Satoko Miyahara, mao asada on the ice,

The women’s senior age should be raised to 21,

Then ballet would be a good choice for you, rather than figure skating, that is a part of Olympic sports.
My take is this, if anybody cares: if you can't quad then train harder, rather than disallowing others to quad, simply because you can't do it. And if your body is not good because it's too late then maybe start thinking about retirement.
And all those "detrimental affects" are simply lame excuses for inability to catch up.
How about disallowing women marathon? How "detrimental" it was to women back in 1984 when they first introduced it! Oh my God, the women can't do it!!
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
I do support quads in the SP, but maybe after the next Olympics.

This is so very obviously self-serving. And would tip the scales in favour of Russian women moreso than it already is.

Next thing, they'll be pushing for 5 entries per qualifying country at Euros/Worlds.

Maybe the ISU can add "extra rotation" as a +GOE bullet? :biggrin:

I mean its self-serving in that it gets rid of something that is so very obviously unfair towards some of their skaters (I'm not saying its intentional but its still unfair). Why shouldn't they try to get rid of something that is unfair? In my opinion, if they don't allow quads, they have to also not allow triple axels. The current rules allow some skaters to use their "weapon" jumps but not others, giving them an artificial advantage in the short program. And I think that we absolutely should not wait until the next Olympics. If we wait, then Olympic results will be determined by unfair rules. And this is these girls' livelihood, what they've worked towards their entire life. And in countries as competitive as Russia, some might only get one chance. And the ISU should do everything in their power to make the rules as fair as possible for the athletes competing in these Olympics. A triple axel will still be very useful since an axel jump is required in both programs, while skaters can get away with completely omitting certain other jumps from both programs.
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Then ballet would be a good choice for you, rather than figure skating, that is a part of Olympic sports.
My take is this, if anybody cares: if you can't quad then train harder, rather than disallowing others to quad, simply because you can't do it. And if your body is not good because it's too late then maybe start thinking about retirement.
And all those "detrimental affects" are simply lame excuses for inability to catch up.
How about disallowing women marathon? How "detrimental" it was to women back in 1984 when they first introduced it! Oh my God, the women can't do it!!

Don’t be so condescending, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as yours, ive been watching figure skating over 35 years, I love the sport, more so than you probably....

And a former figure skater....
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Speaking again about those "detrimental". Any advanced competitive level sport is "detrimental" to children bodies. Any of them. So if we use this argument then we should disallow any advanced training to kids and allow it only after they turn 18. What am I saying? That would be probably around 25 when they also fully mature mentally. Before that age only family oriented recreational activities should be allowed to minors. With grandmas and grandpas.
And did anybody ask how "detrimental" it is to sit, play games and text on the phone for 12 hours a day? That's the alternative, is it?
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Don’t be so condescending, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as yours, ive been watching figure skating over 35 years, I love the sport, more so than you probably....

And a former figure skater....

Well, you love the sport as it was years ago.. But sport is changing, as all the other things in the world. It's not fair to suggest that someone's past (no matter how good it was) should be every others future.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Arrrgh

This isn't a who loves figure skating more contest

I'm fine with quads, I like them very much. But others don't, I don't share their opinion but they're welcome to it
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
The concern about quads being a dangerous element is valid — but it is equally destructive for male skaters, something everyone who watched FS had witnessed again and again. Quad being a forbidden element specifically in the short ladies’ skate does not address a concern for ladies’ health, however. It might even make it more dangerous, because in efforts to compensate for the lack of 3A, the quad-capable ladies will overpack the free with quads, or they will push to add 3A in addition to the quads.

There is no saving anyone feet by this specific prohibition, I.e. no quads in ladies’ short. It’s arbitrary and doesn’t address safety concerns
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think it may be a little too soon to permit it in the SP just yet. I think that today, only one skater over the age of 15 has landed a quad, and only on one occasion. I'd like to see a few more skaters land the jump in their second or third season as a senior, otherwise the ISU is giving a huge advantage to skaters who won't be competitive in a year or two. It's tough because that might be more fair, but it would be bad for the sport to have careers at the top end by 17.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I think it may be a little too soon to permit it in the SP just yet. I think that today, only one skater over the age of 15 has landed a quad, and only on one occasion. I'd like to see a few more skaters land the jump in their second or third season as a senior, otherwise the ISU is giving a huge advantage to skaters who won't be competitive in a year or two. It's tough because that might be more fair, but it would be bad for the sport to have careers at the top end by 17.

I don't think that's a valuable argument against it. After all, Mao Asada was the only one landing 3A and they changed the rules because of it, thankfully. Even the damage was already done, because not allowing her to jump 3A as a single element in SP in Vancouver was just not fair as that was her only weapon to beat Yuna. Why acknowledging one's skaters strenght, and not another's one? I think the programmes, and competitions as a whole, would be much more interesting if more things are allowed in first place. And Mao Asada with a 3A, and Miki Ando who was jumping quads were more years in the sport than Yuna was, so...
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
The concern about quads being a dangerous element is valid — but it is equally destructive for male skaters, something everyone who watched FS had witnessed again and again. Quad being a forbidden element specifically in the short ladies’ skate does not address a concern for ladies’ health, however. It might even make it more dangerous, because in efforts to compensate for the lack of 3A, the quad-capable ladies will overpack the free with quads, or they will push to add 3A in addition to the quads.

Kids aged 10-15 play and train extremely highly competitive soccer, squash, football, tracks, tennis, skiing, anything, that causes constant injuries. Both girls and boys. It's even more destructive than quads in figure skating. Tell them to stop. If we want to avoid injuries we don't put kids to competitive sports period. Any sports. In fact, being born is exposing us to constant injuries. Life is not healthy either.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I don't think that's a valuable argument against it. After all, Mao Asada was the only one landing 3A and they changed the rules because of it, thankfully. Even the damage was already done, because not allowing her to jump 3A as a single element in SP in Vancouver was just not fair as that was her only weapon to beat Yuna. Why acknowledging one's skaters strenght, and not another's one? I think the programmes, and competitions as a whole, would be much more interesting if more things are allowed in first place. And Mao Asada with a 3A, and Miki Ando who was jumping quads were more years in the sport than Yuna was, so...

I don't think it's a good argument from the perspective of fairness. I'm just saying it will change the nature of the sport. I think it's even different from allowing the 3A to be the axel in the SP. Yes, it was passed exclusively to benefit one skater, but the jump had been landed by at least four other senior women in competition. Personally, I'd feel better about it if the women are still landing it in two year; if not, it will really become a situation where the best skaters can only have a 1-2 year reign at the top before their bodies won't allow them to rotate quads.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Kids aged 10-15 play and train extremely highly competitive soccer, squash, football, tracks, tennis, skiing, anything, that causes constant injuries. Both girls and boys. It's even more destructive than quads in figure skating. Tell them to stop. If we want to avoid injuries we don't put kids to competitive sports period. Any sports. In fact, being born is exposing us to constant injuries. Life is not healthy either.

My point is that if element is forbidden due to safety concern, it has to be forbidden in every discipline — just forbidding it in ladies’ short is unfair and pointless from the safety perspective.

As for ‘only one skater landed it so far’, by 2022, I predict up to 6-8 ladies being capable of landing at least one quad in competition and age-eligible.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Kids aged 10-15 play and train extremely highly competitive soccer, squash, football, tracks, tennis, skiing, anything, that causes constant injuries. Both girls and boys. It's even more destructive than quads in figure skating. Tell them to stop. If we want to avoid injuries we don't put kids to competitive sports period. Any sports. In fact, being born is exposing us to constant injuries. Life is not healthy either.

My point is that if element is forbidden due to safety concern, it has to be forbidden in every discipline — just forbidding it in ladies’ short is unfair and pointless from the safety perspective.

As for ‘only one skater landed it so far’, by 2022, I predict up to 6-8 ladies being capable of landing at least one quad in competition and age-eligible. Also, so few being able to land it is also not an argument against it being forbidden specifically in ladies’ short. How many men can land a quad axel in competition? Is it a forbidden element?
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
If it passes, it should not take effect until after the 2022 Olympics. All skaters look ahead to the next Olympics with their training and elements. We are now almost half way into the next Olympic cycle. Pass it going forward and everyone capable can have four years to train quads for the next Olympics.

They've had 2 years, they knew that Trusova and Shcherbakova were working on quads, they knew last year that it was clear those 2 were going to be bringing quads to their programs as seniors this year.
 
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