Question to the coaches: Method of training in childhood | Golden Skate

Question to the coaches: Method of training in childhood

kurtstefan

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Many coaches in this world work very hard with talents every day. Especially in early childhood, it is partulary difficult, because the children still have little endurance and concentration for several hours a day.
Has anyone ever thought of how its possible in Russia to do such training with children, that its possible to jump alomost all triple with the age between 8 and 10.
Is there perhaps more behind it, than just the talent selection and motivation. Many coaches can not achieve this goal, but they do not question how its possible.
What is the opinion of the training scientists, the educators and the doping agency?
I would be grateful for insightful posts
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Many coaches in this world work very hard with talents every day. Especially in early childhood, it is partulary difficult, because the children still have little endurance and concentration for several hours a day.
Has anyone ever thought of how its possible in Russia to do such training with children, that its possible to jump alomost all triple with the age between 8 and 10.
Is there perhaps more behind it, than just the talent selection and motivation. Many coaches can not achieve this goal, but they do not question how its possible.
What is the opinion of the training scientists, the educators and the doping agency?
I would be grateful for insightful posts

Write to RUS Fed or the ISU and ask. Seriously.:slink:
 

Autumn Leaves

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Are you implying doping very young children has something to do with success? That would be a new level of sinister :) By the way, these children have parents and dreams of going to the Olympics. I spent part of my childhood in a gymnastics place, worrying that my club isn’t ambitious enough and staying for hours after the training to catch up, brcause I started older. Also, I threw out the furniture from my room (except the bed) to have space for training. The role of my parents and coaches was to stop me and worry that I am overdoing it, not to push me :) And all of that because I saw the Olympics on TV and decided I want to get there one day. So I disagree with your premise that children are difficult to motivate. Children are fearless, light, flexible and have endless energy. Plus, it is all like a game. It becomes difficult once they become teenagers.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
Many coaches in this world work very hard with talents every day. Especially in early childhood, it is partulary difficult, because the children still have little endurance and concentration for several hours a day.
Has anyone ever thought of how its possible in Russia to do such training with children, that its possible to jump alomost all triple with the age between 8 and 10.
Is there perhaps more behind it, than just the talent selection and motivation. Many coaches can not achieve this goal, but they do not question how its possible.
What is the opinion of the training scientists, the educators and the doping agency?
I would be grateful for insightful posts

I'm sure a lot of coaches would like to know their secrets! :laugh: And I'm equally sure that they're not going to tell anyone.

I'm not a coach, but I've been skating since I was 10, so I might be able to offer a bit of useful information.

About children having little endurance and concentration, it was harder to get me off the ice than on as a kid. I almost literally had to be dragged out of a lesson after a nasty blade cut. I wanted to just wrap toilet paper around it and keep skating!

Also, whether certain people on this forum want to admit it or not, that Eteri skater body type really and truly does occur in a significant minority of Russians 100% naturally without any outside interference/dieting/whatever. (That gene runs very strongly in my family, and I inherited it big time.) So, part of how they manage those jumps is genetic luck of the draw.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Jan 9, 2017
Country
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I'm sure a lot of coaches would like to know their secrets! :laugh: And I'm equally sure that they're not going to tell anyone.

I'm not a coach, but I'm a skater since age 10 and mostly of Russian descent, so I might be able to offer a bit of useful information.

About children having little endurance and concentration, it was harder to get me off the ice than on as a kid. I almost literally had to be dragged out of a lesson after a nasty blade cut. I wanted to just wrap toilet paper around it and keep skating!

Also, whether certain people on this forum want to admit it or not, that Eteri skater body type really and truly does occur in a significant minority of Russians 100% naturally without any outside interference/dieting/whatever. So, part of how they manage those jumps is genetic luck of the draw.

I'm not Russian and you couldn't pull me off the ice from age 3, so IDK that being a certain culture determines any of the endurance/concentration junk. Many of my elite skating friends were the same way, across all cultures.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
I'm not Russian and you couldn't pull me off the ice from age 3, so IDK that being a certain culture determines any of the endurance/concentration junk. Many of my elite skating friends were the same way, across all cultures.

I meant that part in relation to being a skater since 10 and the second part to being Russian. I'll edit that to make it clearer.
 

kurtstefan

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Are you implying doping very young children has something to do with success? That would be a new level of sinister :) By the way, these children have parents and dreams of going to the Olympics. I spent part of my childhood in a gymnastics place, worrying that my club isn’t ambitious enough and staying for hours after the training to catch up, brcause I started older. Also, I threw out the furniture from my room (except the bed) to have space for training. The role of my parents and coaches was to stop me and worry that I am overdoing it, not to push me :) And all of that because I saw the Olympics on TV and decided I want to get there one day. So I disagree with your premise that children are difficult to motivate. Children are fearless, light, flexible and have endless energy. Plus, it is all like a game. It becomes difficult once they become teenagers.

If its only the motivation that counts, why are all the other famous coatches in the world not able to motivate their pupils, to get to this high level
 

skatemom0810

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
I grew up training and competing at the elite international level of another sport, and it’s fairly easy to see the type of mentality an athlete has that gives them an edge in training for high level success. When I look at the group of children that train with one of my daughter’s coaches I see a group of dedicated kids who love skating. But one in particular stands out to me as the child that will be most likely go the furthest (and it’s definitely not mine!) She has a level of focus far above her peers, she catches on to new elements and skills very fast, she is very athletic and works hard on her stamina and flexibility even at a young age, she will practice until her mom or the coach is literally dragging her off the ice.

A friend of mine from when I was competing has a daughter who is 7 and trains with the Plushenko Academy. The programs from the beginning are much more in depth than our programs in the USA. And you can get it all in one spot. Our LTS classes are once a week for 30-45 minutes and that’s it. Her LTS was 2-3 days a week, a total of 1 hour on the ice, and 1 hour of off ice training (dance, flexibility/stretching or conditioning). They do it all in one place so it’s easier on the parents and gives the coaches more control and observation over the program and what is being taught. Here in the USA I have to go to the rink, a dance studio, and a gymnastics facility to get all that training in. Trying to balance all the scheduling and the cost is difficult. Her costs are significantly lower than mine (even with the exchange rate factored in) for a higher amount of training. The children then start jumping at a younger age. Most are doing crossovers and waltz jumps within 6 months of starting skating. They have their singles around 1-1.5 years in if they’re consistent in the program. LTS USA kids doing a level every 6-8 weeks starting with Basic 1 aren’t even getting to crossovers for a year and jumps for another year if they aren’t supplementing with private lessons and off ice training.

Edit: one other difference I noticed in terms of jumps was the half jumps. The only half jump her daughter learned was the euler. When my daughter was in Excel Beginner she had to do a half lutz and half flip. My friend didn’t even know that was a thing. Her daughter was taught full rotations right from the beginning of learning the jump.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Compare children to a litter of animal pups, playing and fighting for dominance.

Sports activities with young children are much the same when properly guided and channeled. It will make the children better, stronger, faster, and will benefit them later in life.

It is over ambitious parents that want to realise their own (failed) ambitions through their children, or see their talented or even prodigious children as a source of income that are the more imminent danger to the child's wellbeing ... i.e. those dance moms, gym moms, skate moms, football dads, baseball dads, motorsports dads, etc etc.
Keeping their child from school and social activities with other children, in extreme cases putting their child to physical and emotional ordeals (often close to torture) for 'betterment' and 'realisation'. Until the child reaches the age of understanding it doesn't know it is being maltreated, because it is kept isolated.

Those Russian state funded sports schools at least allow the child to be a child amongst other children. But one can also accuse the 'state' of using children for its propaganda purposes ...
 

sandraskates

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
If its only the motivation that counts, why are all the other famous coatches in the world not able to motivate their pupils, to get to this high level

Sometimes it's not a motivation issue, it's a mental / nerves issue when it comes to competitions.

Throughout my umpteen years in this sport, I always think of 2 young ladies that were truly lovely and amazing skaters. They had every attribute in practice that you'd see in a world champion skater.
Competition was another matter. They folded, in every one. Thus, never making it to Nationals and eventually leaving the sport.

I've always maintained that for every US lady skater that you see on TV, there are at least 3 more that are actually better but couldn't hold it together in competition to move to the elite level.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
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May 19, 2018
Ah, right, and that's another huge, huge factor: figure skating is state-funded in Russia!

I've always maintained that for every US lady skater that you see on TV, there are at least 3 more that are actually better but couldn't hold it together in competition to move to the elite level.

And dozens more who could have been better but either didn't have the money for elite training, or worse, have never even set foot on the ice because they don't have access to a rink/coaches/etc. Ditto every other country without a state-funded program.

Most are doing crossovers and waltz jumps within 6 months of starting skating. They have their singles around 1-1.5 years in if they’re consistent in the program. LTS USA kids doing a level every 6-8 weeks starting with Basic 1 aren’t even getting to crossovers for a year and jumps for another year if they aren’t supplementing with private lessons and off ice training.

This too. I tested out of 2 levels the first time I ever set foot on the ice in my life, did correct spirals that same day, and was doing decent waltz jumps two weeks later (It was right after the Winter Olympics, and I was trying to do an Axel but it came out a waltz jump, talk about "kids are fearless". :laugh:). But I was at a small, new rink, and the coaches didn't watch the practice portion so they either never saw me or assumed I was at a much higher level than I was. Back then in Russia (before ladies jumping quads was a thing), even with my late start, I might have had a shot to at least try for the big leagues. In the US, even if someone had noticed that the kid who has been skating two weeks is already jumping, my parents could barely afford LTS. I had no chance right from the get-go.
 

WednesdayMarch

Nicer When Fed
Medalist
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Country
United-Kingdom
Back when I was training seriously (and before the break up of the USSR), we had a theory that the Russians generally did better for two reasons:-

1) Because they had state-funded academies with everything under one roof whereas we in Britain had to pay for our training, which usually meant working more than one job in order to fit round and pay for training and all the associated costs, and

2) For the Russians, skating was their way out, not necessarily of the country but out of the cramped conditions and hard way of life of most of their compatriots.

I think those reasons still stand today. When I started teaching - which was after the break up of the Soviet Union - I soon noticed that the most gifted skaters came from both rich and poor backgrounds, but the ones with the drive and need to succeed usually came from families who just couldn't afford to pay for all the coaching they needed in order to progress to the very top in the sport. It's why I never worked full time as a coach, as I needed to make more money in order to support my talented students than they could pay for my services. Bit of a Catch-22. In Russia, that problem just isn't there for the children with talent.

The children from British families who could afford all the lessons, ice time, travel and equipment didn't have the same need and hunger for the success because they knew that they and their families were going to be okay, whether or not they won. It isn't just about glory, it's also about survival. And survival is a real fighting instinct.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
I've talked to some coaches at our rink who are Russian and from what they've said I think there are a few factors:

- Figure skating in Russia is a much bigger deal so average people understand it better and appreciate it better, that means there are more kids who want to try it and there's more social acceptance to stick with it even when it gets tough. Bigger pool of potential skaters = more chance to get the best skaters.

- Coaching is approached differently in Russia than in the US and many other places. From what I'm told, when kids are young all the coaches at a rink work together to develop the skaters. In the US there's actually financial incentive for each coach to poach or sabotage. Not saying they do that! vast majority of coaches are great and look out for all the skaters at a rink, but the financial incentives matter and they change the dynamics of all the little interactions.

- Because figure skating is more popular, there's also a lot more figure skating ice time, off ice training time, equipment etc. Where I live, for example, I cannot go into any pro shop and buy skates for my skater. They will NEVER have some in stock. They simply don't sell enough boys skates to keep more than 1 or 2 models and they really only sell the very low level skates. You have to special order higher level skates. That pretty much true for the girls as well. And that's how most of the US is going to be.

- Weight training in childhood is controversial. In the US it's often advised to wait until a child is 12 before you let them use weights. But the reality is that weight training before and during puberty plays a huge role in lifelong athletic achievement. But because it's so taboo in the US to have your kid do weight training, most don't do it. It's just that simple.

- Similarly, figure skating is deemed an 'early specialization sport' like gymnastics and diving. Part of that is because it takes so long to get good and also because peak performance, especially for girls, is rather young. But it's also because the mind needs to be trained. And it's not just mental training about getting up after falls and being resilient etc. it's also about actually turning off the biological impulses that make you dizzy or that protect you from falling. Turning these mental impulses off is essential for higher jumps (triples and quads definitely but also even doubles). I assume that kids who start trying to do quads younger have less mental blocks on quads - their minds have been trained earlier to avoid the fear and dizziness etc that comes with the big jumps.

- And because it's an 'early specialization sport', that also greatly limits the pool of potential skaters in the US. Our culture looks very harshly at parents who opt to homeschool so their 10-year-old can train for figure skating, for instance.

- Of course, the finances are very different as well. Only the wealthy (or the parents willing to refi their home multiple times) can afford to pay for the costs of training a figure skater. And since there are no college scholarships and really no real lucrative options in adulthood from figure skating in the US, it's basically mostly a rich person's sport and a hobby for everyone else.
 

kurtstefan

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
I think your comments are very interesting and competent. There are different opinions about weight training esp.before puberty.Do you think that weight taining plays a big role in Russia bcause all athletes have a great high in their jumps. Or is it more genetic.
In addition, the strength training with weights should be under professional supervision anyway
Thanks for your contributions
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
I think your comments are very interesting and competent. There are different opinions about weight training esp.before puberty.Do you think that weight taining plays a big role in Russia bcause all athletes have a great high in their jumps. Or is it more genetic.
In addition, the strength training with weights should be under professional supervision anyway
Thanks for your contributions

Read this insightful interview with Aleksey Zheleznyakov, the Physical Exercise and Dance teacher from Khrustalniy rink. He dismisses weight training in female skaters and instead relies on high energy and physically demanding dance from many styles to physically train skaters' strength, flexibility and endurance in fun, challenging and active lessons: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...ridze-Effect&p=2435774&viewfull=1#post2435774
Many dance styles can be used to train specific muscle groups.

In general, in high performance coordination sports with children and youths, like gymnastics, diving, climbing, only bodyweight is used in many repetitions sometimes added with very moderate loads by wrist and ankle weights. These young athletes with their optimum body mass don't need big muscles, just efficient muscles of sufficient power for the purpose.

Also it is my opinion you should train solid basics first and build upon this foundation the stronger skills. The younger a triksel or quad is learned and mastered properly, the longer it will stay competitive during the skaters growth and career.
 

Momtoiceprincess

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Do the parents have more or less influence in Russia? My kids are in gym & skating, some of the parents of the kids are Eastern European/Russian... I've noticed these are the parents who tend not to sit through training sessions espe the cially the 3-4 hour sessions that the us mom's happily sit through & monitor every detail... The Russian born parents seem to let go of the child to the coach & return at the end of practice to collect the kid. Is this the same in Russia or are the parents demanding?
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Do the parents have more or less influence in Russia? My kids are in gym & skating, some of the parents of the kids are Eastern European/Russian... I've noticed these are the parents who tend not to sit through training sessions espe the cially the 3-4 hour sessions that the us mom's happily sit through & monitor every detail... The Russian born parents seem to let go of the child to the coach & return at the end of practice to collect the kid. Is this the same in Russia or are the parents demanding?

The Russians trust their coaches to the point they let them train their kids w/o much interference, some send child away to be trained if they show signs of being a future top competitor or outstanding in whatever way.

Over my career I've trained with Russian, American, Canadian, etc coaches. The experiences varied but they all expected the best.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
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May 19, 2018
The thought of my parents sitting through a 3-4 hour training session is hilarious, and they weren't even born in Eastern Europe (their grandparents were). :laugh: They didn't even stick around for my ballet lessons when I was a toddler.

I always felt bad for the kids whose parents watched their every move because I figured it corresponded to copious nagging and criticism later, but I feel better now knowing that it was probably a cultural thing at least for a lot of them.
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
I think the reason Tutberidze (and some other top Russian coaches) are so successful nowadays is very careful and thorough selection of skaters they take in their group. In other countries, coaches may take on a student because of money. Top Russian coaches don’t have to do it, their groups are funded by the government. And skating is pretty popular, so they have a big pool to choose from.

When looking at very young children, I don’t think their skating skill level is important. At that age, Tutberidze is not looking for ‘the best skaters’. She can teach them skating. There are more important things that she can’t do anything about. What they are looking at is personal character of the child. Is the child able to follow directions? Is the child able to take criticism or are they going to burst into tears? Does the child really wants it? If I was the coach who decides, I would give the child a task and then ignore the child for an hour, to see how long the child will remain motivated when no one supervises him/her. Or I would leave the room, and somewhere hidden observe whether the child will start slacking off as soon as they can’t see me. Obviously, the child needs to have some level of coordination, but often, it is not the most talented but the most hardworking one who wins. And the one who is very self motivated. Who doesn’t just say he/she wants it, but who actually REALLY want it. Who would do anything to achieve it.
 

Momtoiceprincess

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
That's very interesting, I've often wondered what the cultural differences were & if top sport in Russia has the same pushy demanding parents we have here. With daughters in gym & skating it's very easy to spot.
Interesting article on edge forum mentions Eteri allows parents sit in practice....
 
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