Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That's not quite true, because of the minimum technical scores. The worst skaters at Worlds, or even Euros/4Cs/Olympics with lower minimums, will not be in the same league as the medalists, but they will have achieved a minimum level of competence far beyond barely standing on skates. No need to be hyperbolic.

Individual JGPs are different, but only the best juniors make it to the final.


So what would an "open" competition structure look like? What did you have in mind?

Maybe something like an expanded Grand Prix, either with many more two-warmup-group competitions over many more weeks, or only a few more but double their size.

Would there be any limit to the number events an individual skater could enter? Or how many skaters from the same country could be entered in the same event?

Have skaters enter as individuals rather than representing countries? Who would pay the entry fees and expenses for each in that case?

Would there be funding sources to offer prize money not only to the medalists but income for competitors who make these events watchable even if they don't win, to fund their ability to train at the top level and improve toward medalworthy standard?

Use some formula taking into both placements and actual scores to determine the top 24 or 30 skaters of the season, irrespective of national origin, who would then qualify for Worlds?


Or maybe it make sense to expand the Grand Prix in some similar way to the point that the GPF with the best 24 skaters of the season would be the culmination and most prestigious event of the season.

But also have worldwide and/or continental events that any federation can participate in if they have at least one skater who meets a minimum standard?

There still need to be national federations to grow the sport at a domestic level before there will be any skaters at all who are ready to compete on a world stage. The question is who determines who can compete internationally, what opportunities are available for international competitors, and who pays for it all.

If skaters competed purely as individuals at the elite level, not representing their federations and therefore not providing bragging rights to their home countries, there would be much less incentive for national organizations to fund travel to competitions, much less to fund training. If "Russia" didn't get a benefit from seeing top skaters announced as representing Russia and seeing a Russian flag during the medal ceremonies, I think it's a lot less likely that Russian skaters would have access to the resources that allow them to train to a dominant level.

Because of the way the Olympics is structured for all sports, there would still be limits on the number of Olympic entries per country.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Yes, I would like GP to be expanded and elevated to the most prestigious event in figure skating. And it’s not true the country pride would be removed. In tennis, like in all sports, they carry their country names next to their individual names and national pride is as important as their own accomplishments.
I don’t know if it would be called GP, or World Cup, etc. Just like in other winter sports, where the season is a series of open competitions with a big final at the end. And that is giving their prestige and fame, and that is attracting sponsors.
How do you see Nike offering Medvedeva or Zagitova contracts if they know they will show up only three times in the entire season, no matter how well they perform, and missing the most prestigious event? And the sponsor has completely no power over their pupils?

And don’t bring the “Olympic” argument, because all the winter sports, with their world cups, etc, are still very well represented at the Olympics. There is no contradiction.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Your post, and questions.
If I were to increase the number of strong skaters at things like GPs, GPF and Worlds I think I would do it by evolution, not revolution, but Manitou's idea of having a World Cup like in skiing has to have its benefits also, it's just a question of the number of stops on the 'tour' you could have right now. I imagine it's about 9, say the current 6, plus Korea, Italy and maybe Finland. I'm not too sure anybody else would be big enough as yet, plus you've also the problem of how many competitors at each event, once you get over a certain number everything gets a bit unwieldy, but if you could get a system so that every competitor worth their salt gets a chance to compete in at least 5 or 6 events then you may be getting somewhere.

Re the current system, the most obvious example to my mind where you could make changes is the GPF.

For example, if it’s 2 full groups of skaters at GPs, why not have the same at the Final? OK, you wouldn't want to overshadow the World Champs if the latter were to remain the same, but I would have thought 10 singles, 8 or 10 Ice Dance and 8 pairs would be a good compromise that would strengthen the fields and hopefully make the event more attractive to the watching public, and by extension the TV companies.

Re GPs, it’s all about costs and can you expand them in such a way that the fields are strengthened and the sport built up, but if it could be done, I’d tend to look at just expanding the existing GPs, but if you can do it by having new ones in somewhere like Korea as well then that would be great also.

Also if you were to keep the current structure I’d look at trying to get the skaters to do 3 events rather than 2, and hence build up things like the name recognition factor that way.

My ideal scenario would see something like there being 2 GPs in North America, then a week’s gap, then 2 weeks in Europe, another weeks gap and then 2 weeks in Asia.

Then I’d get the skaters to do 1 event at each set of 2 i.e. they’d end up doing 3 events with the skaters then being shuffled up from one set of events to the next. However you would be getting a kind of 'proto tour' in that you’ve got half the skating world skating at one event, then the other half the following, whereas at the moment it’s a bit random which 2 events they go to.

At this point the skaters are doing 50% more events than now, so I would look at each event having 3 warm up groups i.e. 18 singles skaters. That way the same number of skaters as now would have the same opportunity. But ideally I’d go to 24 skaters in singles if costs and time constraints could bear it. That way you could have even more strong skaters competing from countries where they don’t necessarily get the chance right now (plus skaters from small countries should also have more opportunities).

For example at the moment you've got 72 spots to be filled in singles and you get something like 30 skaters with 2 spots, 6 with 1 and 6 Host Picks where young skaters are being blooded.

If you went to 6 lots of 24 entries i.e. 144 in total, you could go to something like 44 skaters with 3 spots, and 12 Host Picks meaning there’s opportunities for skaters from all countries big and small to get on GPs, but of course there is the cost element to bear in mind and can the organisers bear it. N.B. I’d look at allowing 4 or 5 skaters max per country if you went to a 18/24 entries system, maybe allow 4 if there’s 18 and 5 if there’s 24. That should allow some of those really strong skaters missing out in countries like Russia to get their opportunity in GPs, whilst also allowing more skaters from smaller countries to get their chance.

Finally with Championships and more specifically the World Champs, I’d be a little more circumspect. One thing about them is that it’s the TV companies that ultimately pay the bills, and I imagine the vast majority of TV money comes from those in the USA, Japan and Russia, and the one thing they’d like to see is at least 2 or 3 of their competitors in the main disciplines of singles. However you do have the constraint of ice re-surfaces and things meaning that they’d always like their competitors to be in the last 2 groups i.e. the final 12 skaters, and vastly increasing the number of competitors from certain countries is not going to help in achieving this.

However notwithstanding this I’m sure the World Championships could certainly bear an extra 2 or 3 competitors without the other countries being swamped by the increased number from a certain few. E.g. I’d probably look at giving the reigning World Champion a free pass, similarly the newly crowned European and 4 Continents champions (could give a bit of extra spice to that competition as it always seems to be one least regarded, for want of a better expression, of the main championships). Then I’d just have the number of other spots exactly as determined by the previous World Champs. This way it’s possible you might get a max of 5 competitors from 1 country, 4 from another, or 4 from 3, but you wouldn’t end up with 6, which is a possibility if you were to include the newly crowned GPF champion.

So that would be my way of doing it, strengthen fields judiciously, give more skaters their chance, and hopefully make the competitions more attractive to both viewers and the TV companies (and build up the sport etc. etc.).
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
i will add that they should stop deleting skating videos with millions of views in the internet
make the videos more accessible to casual viewers. Ex. Yuna's SITC olympic short was uploaded 5 frickin years after it happened. :bang:
how can you be a fan if you can't see the skating. LOL
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Having additional competitors from bigger FS countries for GPF and World Cup is ok.

But for World Championships, it needs to follow Olympic country limits as rankings from WC qualifies a skater for Olympics.
Yes, arguements abt this has already been made when discussing the Russian ladies.

My counter( and those from any other FS small Fed country) was & still is if want no country limits for OG, it has to be same rule across the board for all OG sports. Summer & Winter.
I dont mind having 5 entrants from my country in some of the sports we are strong in. Then, US, Canada & Russia & most European countries will not have qualifiers in some sports.
Then you answer to your country's athletes why they could not go for Olympics.

In long run, it does not spread the interest of FS worldwide. Sponsors & governments will be thinking, 'We would not be able to qualify anyway, why bother giving FS funding'. This is a fact.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IMHO whatever the reasons are, this decline in enthusiasm for figure skating, at least in the U.S., is not something that popped up overnight. It can't be because the U.S.A. doesn't have a current star lady or because casual fans don't understand the scoring system.

Already by 2000 (U.S.A. had Michelle Kwan at her peak and Sasha Cohen in the wings, and the Code of Points was just a glimmer in the eyes of a few Canadian and Russian coaches and officials), yet still there was much discussion in the media and fan forums about this very question -- why has figure skating fallen out of the mainstream as a spectator sport?
 

Sugar Coated

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
There are several reasons in my opinion for a decrease in interest in the US.

First, it’s an expensive sport in the US. There is also a lack of rinks in certain regions, particularly warmer climates that may not have as much cultural attachment to winter sports. It’s also not a sport you can compete with through your school (high school/college). So it means there are no college scholarships which is a motivating factor for many parents who start their kids in sports.

I also think the rise of women’s hockey in the US may have impacted participation in figure skating. Girls who start skating lessons may switch to hockey, which also can be played in high school and has the possibility of college scholarships. I think many girls who skate may also want to switch to hockey so that they can be on a team with local friends which isn’t the same as competing individually in figure skating.

Changes in media have also likely impacted the popularity. Young people aren’t watching figure skating competitions on TV. They watch media online. Now that so much content is blocked, young people can’t share viral videos of skaters on social media. Even sports articles discussing results can’t link to the actual performance. This is severely limiting the exposure for the sport. Just look at how gymnastics allowed videos of Simone Biles recent record setting performance, these were all over the internet and have likely had a positive impact on the sports popularity.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
But for World Championships, it needs to follow Olympic country limits as rankings from WC qualifies a skater for Olympics.
Yes, arguements abt this has already been made when discussing the Russian ladies.

My counter( and those from any other FS small Fed country) was & still is if want no country limits for OG, it has to be same rule across the board for all OG sports. Summer & Winter.
I dont mind having 5 entrants from my country in some of the sports we are strong in. Then, US, Canada & Russia & most European countries will not have qualifiers in some sports. .

Olympics is Olympics, they still do what they do, but in those winter sports that are winning more and more popularity, like aerials, halfpipes, moguls, plus the classical sports like cross country and alpine, they all have the same formula. The formula is that you build reputation, make history and bring sponsors in their own World Cup events. Olympics is just cream on top.
How can a sponsor be interested in endorsing someone who is not guaranteed participation in a most major and prestigious event, no matter how well they perform? What would be their interest?
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
How can a sponsor be interested in endorsing someone who is not guaranteed participation in a most major and prestigious event, no matter how well they perform? What would be their interest?
It is with the hope the athlete can qualify for Olympics. Even if his/her country are not strong in that sport. Hence the advantage of per country limit.

If it is strictly by ranking/results, then only the major countries can qualify, the smaller countries are too far down in ranking & skill(something you mentioned in earlier post). I.e. absolutely no chance at all cos no country limit.
'Small' here includes USA for certain sports like badminton. I have seen how some of the USA players compete, can shake head & facepalm. Just like you shake head watching the smaller Fed skaters.

If Javier Fernandez didnt get a chance when he was a nobody from a lesser known Fed, we would not have an OG bronze medalist from Spain.

In the same vein also, FS in Asia grew because Arakawa won the Ladies OG gold in 2006, Kim Yuna won in 2010 and Shen/Zhao won the pairs OG gold in 2010.
Shen/Zhao's coach finished last when he was competing.

FS in Asia is actually growing. So whenever ISU officials say FS is dying, how to generate interest, etc etc we scratch our heads, since when FS is dying, a new rink was just built cos someone qualified for Olympics.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Already by 2000 (U.S.A. had Michelle Kwan at her peak and Sasha Cohen in the wings, and the Code of Points was just a glimmer in the eyes of a few Canadian and Russian coaches and officials), yet still there was much discussion in the media and fan forums about this very question -- why has figure skating fallen out of the mainstream as a spectator sport?

Has anything been done since then?
 

RobinA

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
I got interested with FS back in the 70s not because I was actively seeking it, but because it just happened to be on TV twice a year: the Europeans and the Worlds. And because there was only one TV channel and I was watching every possible sport then simply I couldn't miss it. And that was how the interest started.



Logically thinking, that would be the right conclusion. But it contradicts my observations of the rapid decline of pair skating in favor of ice dancing.

I am one who has switched from Pairs being my favorite discipline to much preferring Dance. I find Pairs unwatchable at this point. Constant splats on side by side triples, hideous lifts, zero really moving programs, godawful music (although that's in all disciplines lately). When I need a dose of really good Pairs it's off to YouTube to watch Shen/Zhou win Worlds in when? 2003.
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Logically thinking, that would be the right conclusion. But it contradicts my observations of the rapid decline of pair skating in favor of ice dancing.

I don't think there's been a big decline in pair skating interest among serious fans as much as there been a rise in ice dance interest because they developed actual rules and dramatically increased the athleticism of the discipline. The acrobatic aspect of ice dance and the specific required elements (ie. twizzles, lifts) made it more interesting and easy to follow. Ice dance feels more like a true sport now with IJS and it generally has more countries participating than pairs. Pairs is still my favorite discipline though.

Casual fans only tuning into skating once a year or less are going to be more attracted to big tricks. They don't understand edges and turns and the tiny details of ice dance.
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I wouldn't say figure skating was ever a mainstream sport in the US. The sport benefited from the Tonya scandal and from the fact that there used to only be 10 TV channels and no internet. Skating was always on when you turned on the TV. Now there are 400 channels and NBC hides the live coverage unless you pay. Unless you are a real fan, you're usually not going to know when or where to watch.

It's also an outrageously expensive sport with no college scholarship opportunities (unlike a similar sport like gymnastics). You have to pay both a coach and the training facility (the rink), which is unusual for sports. A lot of people don't even live near a decent rink. It's much easier for a kid to pick up a ball and get interested in those mainstream sports.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I am one who has switched from Pairs being my favorite discipline to much preferring Dance. I find Pairs unwatchable at this point. Constant splats on side by side triples, hideous lifts, zero really moving programs, godawful music (although that's in all disciplines lately). When I need a dose of really good Pairs it's off to YouTube to watch Shen/Zhou win Worlds in when? 2003.

And I find dance unwatchable because the result is preordained. Might as well skip the competition part and just hand out the medals. And an already incomprehensible scoring system is...I don’t have a word for it...incomprehensible on steroids?
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Has anything been done since then?

I think if anyone knew what to do they would do it. Also clearly it is not the same in all countries as it is very popular in Russia, Japan, etc.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
And I find dance unwatchable because the result is preordained. Might as well skip the competition part and just hand out the medals. And an already incomprehensible scoring system is...I don’t have a word for it...incomprehensible on steroids?

Just looking at P/C score and I am absolutely beyond livid. It killed my enthusiasm for this discipline and to think they were the ones I supported at the Olympics. Ice Dancing is still more enjoyable and watchable than Pairs though. That discipline seem to be forever stuck in the 90's.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
I definitely don't think more skaters from the same country would improve things. I know a lot of audience members left the arena during the JGPF last year once they saw that the pairs free field was all Russian & ditto for the five out of six Russian junior ladies field. (Quad attempts or not, people left to eat).
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
But this just isn’t true. There is no one at Worlds who can “barely stand on skates.” There is minimum TES to be made. Rules are the same for everyone. My understanding- every Fed gets a spot automatically but they can only fill it if they have a skater who makes the minimum TES. If not that spot goes unfilled. Russia really shouldn’t have more power than smaller Fed but they do. Anyway it is World championships. Not Russian or Japanese or Canadian or whatever. If I want to only see skaters from Russia I would go to Russian championships.

An incomprehensible and ridiculous qualification system where the likes of Spain or Korea could have brought 2 third rate competitors each at the next Worlds or Olympics just because Fernandez and Kim won. There is nothing fair or sensical with the current status quo.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
I definitely don't think more skaters from the same country would improve things. I know a lot of audience members left the arena during the JGPF last year once they saw that the pairs free field was all Russian & ditto for the five out of six Russian junior ladies field. (Quad attempts or not, people left to eat).

Anecdotal and clearly unbiased observations and opinions are very believable.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Just looking at P/C score and I am absolutely beyond livid. It killed my enthusiasm for this discipline and to think they were the ones I supported at the Olympics. Ice Dancing is still more enjoyable and watchable than Pairs though. That discipline seem to be forever stuck in the 90's.

I love pairs and at least the scoring makes as much sense as possible given the current system but both are in a race to the bottom for viewership.

- - - Updated - - -

An incomprehensible and ridiculous qualification system where the likes of Spain or Korea could have brought 2 third rate competitors each at the next Worlds or Olympics just because Fernandez and Kim won. There is nothing fair or sensical with the current status quo.

Ok well we disagree.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I don't think there's been a big decline in pair skating interest among serious fans as much as there been a rise in ice dance interest because they developed actual rules and dramatically increased the athleticism of the discipline. The acrobatic aspect of ice dance and the specific required elements (ie. twizzles, lifts) made it more interesting and easy to follow. Ice dance feels more like a true sport now with IJS and it generally has more countries participating than pairs. Pairs is still my favorite discipline though.

Casual fans only tuning into skating once a year or less are going to be more attracted to big tricks. They don't understand edges and turns and the tiny details of ice dance.
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I wouldn't say figure skating was ever a mainstream sport in the US. The sport benefited from the Tonya scandal and from the fact that there used to only be 10 TV channels and no internet. Skating was always on when you turned on the TV. Now there are 400 channels and NBC hides the live coverage unless you pay. Unless you are a real fan, you're usually not going to know when or where to watch.

It's also an outrageously expensive sport with no college scholarship opportunities (unlike a similar sport like gymnastics). You have to pay both a coach and the training facility (the rink), which is unusual for sports. A lot of people don't even live near a decent rink. It's much easier for a kid to pick up a ball and get interested in those mainstream sports.

I don’t think we can say what attracts casual fans without studies. I can tell you my mother, who is close to 80, doesn’t care about tricks or jumps. She watches because she likes sports she considers artistic - gymnastics, figure skating, diving, etc. She also doesn’t really care who wins, but she doesn’t like falls. Every time any skater falls she gasps and says oh no! The first time I remember watching figure skating was when Dorothy Hamill won the gold. Everyone knew who she was. Everyone. All the girls had to have her haircut, whether or not that was a wise idea. Oh and a few years later - everyone knew Tai and Randy. Sports Illustrated sold posters of them right along with the football and basketball stars of the day. And let me tell you kids about accessibility. When I was growing up, we did not have cable. You might get skating for US Nationals and World Championships and Olympics. We did not know there were other competitions. So Olympics were obvious. The rest of the time we would take the paper booklet out of the newspaper and look up “Wide World of Sports” in winter for skating, in summer for gymnastics. Wide World was syndicated and I’m sure VCRs were invented but we did not have one. So if Wide World had skating on and it came on at 3 am you set your alarm and got yourself out of bed and watched it or you may not see it until the 2000s on YouTube. We only knew the skaters the announcers talked about and were shown on TV.
Seriously there is 1000% more coverage and if you want to find the coverage it is so much easier to find it.
 
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