Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Has anything been done since then?

They tired.

The ISU did everything it could to accommodate the requests of U.S. and other television networks in a vain hope of keeping the lucrative contracts that they had in the 1990s. They threw out the whole judging system and came up with an add-up-the-points system to ward off complaints that figure skating judging was too subjective and crooked. They offered a cash prize to entice top skaters to participate in Four Continents to try to make something out of that unwanted step-child of a competition.

They endlessly juggled the Grand Prix to try to make it more attractive to viewers. (At one time skaters could skate in three events -- with two counting for scoring purposes -- in order to offer the top talent at each individual event. One year they tried a head-to-hed tournament style format for the Grand Prix Final, where there were preliminary rounds and then a face-off for 1st-2nd and another face-off for 3rd-4th (with a different long program so the audience wouldn't be bored).

Every year they tinker with the Scale of Values to put more or less emphasis on this element or that to try to find a mix that satisfies as many fans as possible.

They addressed the problem of having some weak skaters at worlds by imposing tech minimums (and also, of course, by never showing the lower flights on TV). Even the idea that Members of the Federation could earn extra spots (besides the national champion) was a slight lean in the direction of inviting more of the top skaters to Worlds.

Now they (the ISU) seems to be noticing that X-games sports have a certain following and they are pushing figure skating (only slightly so far) in that direction. Plus allowing skaters to skate to teen-age popular music was an attempt to attract a younger audience.

Would a different competitive format for Worlds help? Does the idea of separate artistic program and jumping programs hold promise? To me, it is hard to predict what effect various proposals might produce in terms of increasing interest in the sport.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Sorry if this discussion was already here before, but my memory is short and I can't recall it.
Here it is:
I remember figure skating being much more popular in the 70s into the 90s. It was always like one of mainstream winter sports. What happened? Why is it pushed more and more into an obscure niche? Decades ago there used to be only a few TV channels and figure skating events were always guaranteed to be on. Now, there are hundreds of channels, plus internet, and good luck finding figure skating coverage anywhere. There is plenty of snooker, poker, bowling, darts on TV. But not figure skating. We are losing big time to curling. What's wrong?
What is the problem? Why can't figure skating evolve to the changing times? Who is at fault? Why is it less and less appealing to the masses? How can we revive it?

You are trying to solve a problem without adequate data. We can all discuss it to death and I’m happy to do so, believe me. But you’re asking a bunch of die hard fans (myself included) on a niche bulletin board devoted to a niche sport (which I’m happy exists - thank you Goldenskate.). In order to really get the correct information, the best thing to do would be to conduct a poll of a random sample of people “do you watch figure skating” if “no” “why not or what would make you take an interest.” (USFSA or whoever, not us, unless someone wants just wants to do it). Then we would have data to solve our problem (which isn’t a problem in Russia, Japan, etc so they probably would not want to make changes.)
 

moonvine

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Would a different competitive format for Worlds help? Does the idea of separate artistic program and jumping programs hold promise? To me, it is hard to predict what effect various proposals might produce in terms of increasing interest in the sport.

They tried random things with no data and we are a bunch of chocolate ice cream lovers sitting around trying to figure out why people like vanilla ice cream. (Does it cost more than chocolate? Is chocolate not available in their area?)

Personally I think the eternal tinkering with the score system is crazy and that Americans like their scoring simple. I have been watching football for decades. A touchdown is always 6 points. A field goal is always 3 points. A safety is always worth 2 points. If next year they decide not enough safeties are being made and they need to make safeties worth 7 points and then the next year they say well we need to make field goals 4 points, people are going to go absolutely bananas.
 

moonvine

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But how could a casual viewer figure out why one skater was awarded 6.0 and the other 5.8? I think new system is much more clear and being able to see live technical scores is the best thing that could happen to figure skating

Lots of people disagree but again no data. I will say NCAA gymnastics is a good example of a sport that fills up basketball stadiums every Friday night. First it is a fun show. Fireworks, cheerleaders, school mascots, “YMCA,” crazy fans that go shirtless and paint their chests in school colors. Second, the scoring is very simple. A routine starts at X value. They then subtract for errors. Everyone knows what a 10 is. It is perfect score. Everyone can hold up a 10.0 sign or hold 10 fingers in the air. Not that you may not disagree with the score given. But no one is holding up signs going “hope you make a seasons best - wait, what was your seasons best? How much do you need?” But it wasn’t always this way. When I was in school they hung up a black curtain so you couldn’t see all the empty seats. Coaches went out and gave away free tickets, they established things such as princess night where the little girls wore princess outfits, they had autograph signings, whatever they could do to get butts in the seats. I also get at least 3 hours of gymnastics tournaments every Friday night on SEC network. Contrast this with USFSA Collegiate championships where at times I am pretty sure I was the only non parent there.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
They tried random things with no data and we are a bunch of chocolate ice cream lovers sitting around trying to figure out why people like vanilla ice cream.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I have been watching (U.S.) football for decades. A touchdown is always 6 points. A field goal is always 3 points. A safety is always worth 2 points. If next year they decide not enough safeties are being made and they need to make safeties worth 7 points and then the next year they say well we need to make field goals 4 points, people are going to go absolutely bananas.

Although, the NFL does make rule changes now and then to cater to the fans. They didn't change the value of a field goal, but they moved the goal posts back so field goals are harder. They periodically adjust the rules ln favor of the offense when they want more scoring, and in favor of the defense when they think they have gone too far.
 
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moonvine

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I think some of it is a self-fulfilling cycle. Even my friends who like figure skating in theory (a very small number indeed, I assure you) have absolutely no idea of what major competitions ARE, let alone when or how to watch them. It's just not in the public consciousness. I know that doesn't answer your question, but I think it stays niche in large part because it is already niche.

I wonder if some kind of TV show might help propel it upwards. I'm a dancer, as many here already know, and I can tell you that the public consciousness of dance now is MILES higher than it was when I was younger because of Dance Moms and SYTYCD and all those. I mean, real knowledge is still... lacking... I'll nicely put it that way, but they know it exists and they're interested in it. That wasn't as much the case before those shows came out.

When I went to Detroit for Nationals, some of my rideshare drivers said they liked figure skating but had no idea Nationals were in town ..now how much they were publicized I don’t know...
There have been a couple of figure skating shows that didn’t make it. Some of them made me cringe. Bruce Jenner doing pairs skating with Tai? I was like OMG don’t kill her.
 

moonvine

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Although, the NFL does make rule changes now and then to cater to the fans. They didn't change the value of a field goal, but they moved the goal posts back so field goals are harder. They periodically adjust the rules ln favor of the offense when they want more scoring, and in favor of the defense when they think they have gone too far.

I only watch NCAA (Jalen needs to quit scaring me.). And yes they make minor changes. Such as no targeting rule for safety. At first the athlete doing the targeting was automatically ejected, now they do a review. But they don’t make huge overarching changes such as how many points something is worth. They make small changes people can keep up with without consulting multiple pages of documents.
 
Joined
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Bruce Jenner doing pairs skating with Tai? I was like OMG don’t kill her.

I believe that in one performance he skated her so close to the boards that she had to jump up on the surrounding ledge and walk along for a few steps until she could jump back down to the ice. :laugh:

But on the other hand, look what a good show the Canadian hockey players put on this year skating with pairs skaters and ice dancers. :yes:
 
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Manitou

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Jan 17, 2014
But this just isn’t true. There is no one at Worlds who can “barely stand on skates.” There is minimum TES to be made. Rules are the same for everyone. My understanding- every Fed gets a spot automatically but they can only fill it if they have a skater who makes the minimum TES. If not that spot goes unfilled. Russia really shouldn’t have more power than smaller Fed but they do. Anyway it is World championships. Not Russian or Japanese or Canadian or whatever. If I want to only see skaters from Russia I would go to Russian championships.

...


...I don’t think we can say what attracts casual fans without studies....

I don't think I need a lecture how the qualification system works and I don't need a lecture that in order to speak my concern I need to run and prove a scientific research. In fact, I don't any lecture in a lecturing tone at all.
If I see with my own eyes something that quacks like a duck and looks and swims like a duck then I don't need a research to know and say loud it's a duck.

And no, I don't want to see only Russians. I want see the BEST. You get it? The BEST. Not somebody from politically correct assignments to please all the countries like Klopstrokia or Popodokia, but the BEST, wherever they come from. The BEST who, with their own hard work, talent, sweat and blood, earned their spots to compete in most prestigious events. Not the ones being assigned by some fed bureaucrats, but the ones who earned their spots themselves.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
So explain how you think it might work.

How would skaters in various countries train to become among the best? Who would pay for the training?

What would the international elite competition circuit look like? How many top-level competitions per year? How would it be determined who can enter each one? Who pays for the expenses of holding a competition? Who pays for the skaters to participate?
 

Manitou

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Jan 17, 2014
So explain how you think it might work.

How would skaters in various countries train to become among the best? Who would pay for the training?

What would the international elite competition circuit look like? How many top-level competitions per year? How would it be determined who can enter each one? Who pays for the expenses of holding a competition? Who pays for the skaters to participate?

Why don't you look how other winter sports - ski jumping, snowboarding, all the half-pipes, aerials, open air, etc, alpine skiing and cross country skiing, biathlon, etc - just look how they work. Their hold something called "World Cup circuit". A season series of competitions that earn them points and then at the end, all those who earned most points compete in a grand finale. Wins in those world cup events is what gives them prestige, popularity and sponsors. And yes, they all carry their country names with them. But they earn their prestige and their positions by their own work.
And I don't think biathlon or cross country has more money than figure skating. But somehow they get carried by a small bunch of countries that basically carry the entire sport. For example, ski jumping gets carried by Northern and Central Europe, but anybody from outside who happens to have a talent are also welcomed. It's an open sport for everybody. Japan is there too, FYI.

If a talented athlete works hard and wins then then the athlete attracts followers and then sponsors. If a talented athlete, no matter how hard he/she works, is held back by bureaucrats and useless rules then it's a failed sport and sponsors will never even consider looking. Not even mention how immoral that is.
 

moonvine

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I don't think I need a lecture how the qualification system works and I don't need a lecture that in order to speak my concern I need to run and prove a scientific research. In fact, I don't any lecture in a lecturing tone at all.
If I see with my own eyes something that quacks like a duck and looks and swims like a duck then I don't need a research to know and say loud it's a duck.

And no, I don't want to see only Russians. I want see the BEST. You get it? The BEST. Not somebody from politically correct assignments to please all the countries like Klopstrokia or Popodokia, but the BEST, wherever they come from. The BEST who, with their own hard work, talent, sweat and blood, earned their spots to compete in most prestigious events. Not the ones being assigned by some fed bureaucrats, but the ones who earned their spots themselves.

Ok, I’m sorry if I came across in a lecturing tone at all as that was not my intent. I was merely pointing out that the best and quickest way to solve a problem is with data. That’s all. You want what you want and I want what I want. One of these things may or may not be what the non figure skating general public wants.
 

rollerblade

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Jan 12, 2014
And I don't think biathlon or cross country has more money than figure skating. But somehow they get carried by a small bunch of countries that basically carry the entire sport.

And you're fine with biathlon or cross country being niche sports, right?

At first I thought you are complaining about the popularity of viewership (TV coverage), that Figure Skating is losing to Bowling. :laugh: I'm not sure if Bowling evolved, or how it evolved. But then again I don't watch Bowling. Then you meandered into much louder complaints about "charity spots" given to crappy countries. Then it's about sponsorship. Then it's about bureaucrats. I lost track of what your complaint was.
 

Sugar Coated

Final Flight
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Apr 20, 2018
Why don't you look how other winter sports - ski jumping, snowboarding, all the half-pipes, aerials, open air, etc, alpine skiing and cross country skiing, biathlon, etc - just look how they work. Their hold something called "World Cup circuit". A season series of competitions that earn them points and then at the end, all those who earned most points compete in a grand finale. Wins in those world cup events is what gives them prestige, popularity and sponsors. And yes, they all carry their country names with them. But they earn their prestige and their positions by their own work.
And I don't think biathlon or cross country has more money than figure skating. But somehow they get carried by a small bunch of countries that basically carry the entire sport. For example, ski jumping gets carried by Northern and Central Europe, but anybody from outside who happens to have a talent are also welcomed. It's an open sport for everybody. Japan is there too, FYI.

If a talented athlete works hard and wins then then the athlete attracts followers and then sponsors. If a talented athlete, no matter how hard he/she works, is held back by bureaucrats and useless rules then it's a failed sport and sponsors will never even consider looking. Not even mention how immoral that is.

Isn't this exactly how the Grand Prix works? Skaters with high enough scores from the previous season earn GP spots. They then skate in GP competitions and those with the most points make the GPF. This is the "best of the best" earning a chance to compete in the final that is not based on country limits but rather individual performance. Watching the grand prix final is the opportunity to watch the best skaters who have individually earned that position. There may be other talented skaters but they didn't perform well enough to earn their spot.

I'm not sure how other winter sports work exactly, but I assume that these sports have country limits when it comes to the Olympics? If the top 20 skiiers are all from one country they don't let all 20 compete, they still have country limits right? And the country gets to decide who to send of these 20 skiiers. Since World Championships in figure skating are directly related to Olympic spots it makes sense to use the same rules about country.

I get the frustration that Russia has all these incredible skaters. But the whole idea of an international union overseeing the sport means that you are involving all international federations with skaters that can meet the minimum TES. If world championships starts to only include athletes from 1-2 countries (so that its basically a combined Russian/Japanese nationals with maybe a couple other skaters) then other federations are not going to continue to participate and support ISU. The sport will lose funding overall. Its going to limit where international competitions are held since no one wants to host a competition without a skater from their home country. And its going to lose international viewership. If this happens, then you risk the possibility that not enough countries have an interest in the sport so that there is an international push to remove it from the olympics. Baseball is a sport that is really only popular in a handful of counties so it has a history of being voted out of the olympics. I think wrestling was also voted out of the olympics due to lack of audience interest. If your audience is really only from 1-2 countries thats going to put your sport at risk. This is a reason you want to keep athletes from as many countries as possible for world championships.
 

Manitou

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Jan 17, 2014
And you're fine with biathlon or cross country being niche sports, right?

At first I thought you are complaining about the popularity of viewership (TV coverage), that Figure Skating is losing to Bowling. :laugh: I'm not sure if Bowling evolved, or how it evolved. But then again I don't watch Bowling. Then you meandered into much louder complaints about "charity spots" given to crappy countries. Then it's about sponsorship. Then it's about bureaucrats. I lost track of what your complaint was.

It’s all the same thing, but don’t worry about it. It’s all good and fine.
 

Skater Boy

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Feb 24, 2012
I think a lot of you make excellent points.

1. The complex scoring system and a changing system where even the base values change makes it confusing. Most general observers h ave no idea of the difference of an edge versus toe jump let alone why a toe jump is easier than a lutz.

2. Skating may not be such a niche or losing popularity = it depends what country. Certainly the US in the past has been the big country and huge viewership but with technology and internet tv is not such a huge drawing card. Add to that the US has not had a major star really compete consistently at the top since Kwan or Maybe Cohen being generous is another issue. Men is not a big seller. In the 80's and 90's the big winter olympic event was men's hockey and women's figure skating

3. Our stars at least the ladies don't hang around long. Right now we have seen Adelina, Yulia, Radinova, Pogo all go by the way side quickly and it looks like Evgenia, Liza and Alina are next. Hard to gain a followinnng when your shelf life is limited.

4. skating is growing in Japan, China and Korea but not in the other big markets

5. It is too much of a tech competition

6. Perhaps all the whining with internet is reaching other casual observers and that hurts the legitmacy of skating.

7. Programs because of the scoring system look kind of similar.

8. Issues with viewing competitoins

9. Skating is a very expensive sport to compete in
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Bowling, as a spectator sport, reached its height of popularity in the 1960s. The National (U.S.) Bowling League was formed in 1961 and was quite successful for a while. Alas, it has become more and more a niche sport, despite being immensely popular as a recreation and participatory sport. (We just don't have athletes like Earl Anthony any more. ;) )

Golf, on the other hand, is making money hand over fist. People come out in droves or turn on their TVs to watch other people play. I think the difference between golf and figure skating is this. Every weekend duffer (of whom there are legion), every once in a while by accident hits a pretty good shot. He thinks -- hey, with a little practice I could do what the guys on the tour do.

In figure skating, the average viewer can't really identify with the daredevil in a gaudy costume who launches himself into the air and spins around 1440 degrees before landing on a 3/16th inch blade. It seems more like a circus act than a sport.
 
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DSQ

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100% absolutely. Of course, bringing the open approach to FS will not suddenly and magically bring it to the top of attention, but having this obsolete closed and stiff competition rules is just another nail in the coffin, in my opinion.
To me, I can see this situation when Mediedieva, Zagitova and Tuktamysheva, multiple World Champions, Olympic Champion and vice-Champion, being still in great form, will not be seen in the World championships, just because the most accomplished country in FS history has the same power as Bahamas. And I will see some skaters from Klopstrokia who can barely stand on skates, while those three champions will sit at home because Indonesia and Ethiopia must be also represented. To me it’s like a personal insult. I feel personally insulted. As if came to me and spat at me. It’s a personal offense.

I find your final statement offensive to the many young skaters who dream to stand on the same ice as their heroes but were born in Jamaica or Peru. If they meet the technical minimums then they’ve earned their right to compete at the World Champions and it is the duty of the worlds to represent “the world”.

The world Championships is not a zero sum game if that skater from the Bahamas does not make it then it does not mean an additional skater from Russia can attend. If you feel the technical minimums are too low then let’s have that conversation but I think it would be naive in the extreme to really think that Russia has the same political influence within the ISU as a country like Georgia or Ireland or Vietnam.

As members of the ISU they all have the right to be represented at Championships. The Grand Prix was created to help skaters in situations like Zagitova. Let’s not feel too sorry remember these are the skaters who hypothetically came forth at their own nationals.

I personally would support a change in the rule that meant defending champions automatically qualified for Worlds but I find the denigration of small countries skaters to be very offensive. Everyone has to start somewhere.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Because of the way this originally amateur, participant-centered sport was structured from its outset, historically the most important, most prestigious event has been the World Championships where every federation is entitled to send one skater (now only if they have met technical minimums). It has always been the occasion of choosing the best skater in the world that year (with the recognition that sometimes the best skater doesn't have the best day at the big event) and also the one place where the whole skating world can get together.

As skating became more popular as a spectator sport and as it became not only acceptable but desirable for skaters to be able to earn money from top-level competition rather than "turning pro" to earn a living from their sport, about 25 years ago the ISU instituted prize money (more during the 1990s boom years than remains now) and instituted the Grand Prix series which allowed proven strong international skaters to compete week after week and the best of the best to go up against each other at the final, and starting in the later 1990s also a second continental championships for the rest of the world to parallel the European championships, and the Junior Grand Prix.

Historically, that's how we got to where we are now.

If the decision were that the most prestigious title of the year should be the event where all the best skaters compete against each other regardless or national origin, and the "everyone get together in one place to participate in the big event" should be less important or should cease to exist entirely, the ISU would have to figure out a way to rearrange its competition structure to make that happen.

@Miller's post 44 gives some good ideas of how skating might move in that direction.

But either way, there would need to be some structure of international competitions at which many more skaters from many more federations are welcome, in order to determine which skaters are actually the best of the best who deserve to contend for the right to compete in the big prestigious event.

It wouldn't be feasible to have all the best skaters competing against each other every week and nobody else allowed to compete at televised events at all.

So even if the big prestigious event at the end of the season consists only of proven top skaters, there would also be other competitions that include some big names and others seeking to prove themselves and earn their way into the top echelon, and some who don't expect to make it to the very top (at least not yet) but who are good enough to compete in the international circuit at all.

National TV coverage aimed at casual viewers and selective fans, who only want to watch an hour or two of skating at a time, might be edited to show only the expected medal contenders (or the actual medal contenders if tape delayed to be broadcast after results are known) as well as home-country skaters and one or two others who are of interest because of name recognition based on past results, or their performance abilities, or their evident talent that will likely take them to the top in the future.

Online coverage aimed at a hardcore niche audience might show every skater in every event, which would allow fans to watch skaters develop from also-rans to medal contenders as well as finding favorites for reasons other than their likelihood of winning.

Fans with limited time or limited interest could plan their viewing schedules around the start orders of live streaming and fast-forward, etc., through on-demand coverage of whole events.

Or their might be two tiers of senior international circuit, a "senior B" circuit that is not expected to appeal to selective fans, and an "A" circuit that consists of skaters who have recently proved themselves strong enough (initially either in juniors or in senior Bs to get their first invitations to the A circuit, and then by continuing to do well in the A circuit).

In case of a skater who has a sudden breakthrough at a national championships by unexpectedly blowing away the field without having developed the international credentials to qualify for the big event by international-only standards, there should also be a way for surprise potential medal contenders to insert themselves into the mix for the big event. (Think Rudy Galindo 1996)

Depending how the international circuit were structured, federations might adjust the timing of their nationals accordingly. With the current timing, events like Euros/4Cs (which currently require international minimum scores) and/or other B events between mid-January and mid-March might serve as last-chance opportunities for breakthrough skaters to earn their way into the late-March big event.
 
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