Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Why is figure skating losing and being pushed to a niche?

NaVi

Medalist
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Media fragmentation is the absolute #1 reason. Media prominence dictates interest rather than anything inherent to figure skating. I've been watching the figure skating ratings in Russia(I'm American not Russian btw) and there's a gigantic different between being on Channel One and being on Match TV... and a big difference between being showed on live on prime time and being shown taped in a afternoon. Tangentially, figure skating never did a good job cultivating a local tradition of watching and going to figure skating events anywhere. There's nothing like Thanksgiving football or the New Years Rose Bowl for figure skating. There's nothing like UFC's 4th of July fight week in Las Vegas every year.

The #2 reason is having winners(or at least those in the hunt to win) you can identify with... which regularly comes down to nationalism. There's a chicken and egg situation between #1 and #2. The Medvedeva/Zagitova showdown helping to save the 2018 Olympics for Russia set the stage for Channel One taking up the rights to figure skating. Now that we're in the quad/3A era for ladies, there is room to create new "winners" with a tech-limited version of skating. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...tic-programs&p=2477989&viewfull=1#post2477989

Before going further it's important to note that 80s/90s figure skating has a lot of extra things going for it. There was an extra Olympics which probably came at the absolute best time. The US/Western and USSR rivalries which led to shared tours after the fall of the Soviet Union. The jump technical needed to win was both still fresh and interesting but good for artistry(no long setup... easy to balance jumps and art). The spins didn't last quite as long and had fewer positions... the spectator could rest their eyes on the spin and movements in the spin could be more timed with the music making them more projecting and impactful. The culture in general back then fit figure skating better... it was more romantic and less raw... the decline of figure skating dovetails pretty closely to the decline of love ballads and slow dancing. And I don't think that's completely accidental.

Before critiquing IJS, Mathman's point that figure skating's popularity was declining before IJS or even before the 2002 Olympics is important. I remember finding a comment from him saying that a while back and I found an old article confirming it(that I wish I could find now)

#3=#4=#5: figure skating is too repetitive, there's not enough freedom to make interesting programs, figure skating's culture(just like the broader culture) is exhausted
#3 Figure skating is repetitive. It's repetitive for each skater for the season because they're doing the same program over and over again. A mid-season program changeup for all the Grand Prix qualifiers would make things interesting... having all the very top medal qualifying skaters dust off an old program(which is not done enough) or get a new program would make things a lot more interesting. The whole one program for the whole season paradigm needs to be disrupted. But the ISU has to step in as the skaters themselves won't do it(nor is it smart to do it).
#4 Figure skating is repetitive between skaters because there is not enough freedom in the rules for the skaters to differentiate themselves from one another and create interesting programs. There needs to be more time per jump pass. Some elements in the program should be able to be substituted for one another(let's say, replace a 2A with a spiral or a series of steps... part of the steps with a spiral or spin... a spin with spiral or some steps... etc). It should be able to split up the step sequences and maybe spins. The way spins are judged completely needs to be reworked for seniors I'd rather they all be judged on GOE and how they fit choreographically. Pairs is the discipline that needs this the most IMO... the idea that every single program needs a twist lift and a death spiral is something I find ridiculous. When I watch old pairs programs from the 60s and early 70s I just can't help but feel the way pairs has developed is extremely myopic. A couple of the big pair elements should be required of a team... but let a couple of the overhead and twist lifts be replaceable with more throws and side by side jumps. Or with icedance style lifts. Let the death spiral be replaceable with a close hand dance section.
#5 Figure skating's culture is exhausted. The repetition in skating music is getting really bad(see 3 Schindler's lists programs at the last Men's FS... and people on twitter listed other examples during the season of the same thing happening)... kind of like Hollywood obsession with reboots. The choreographers are too stuck in figure skating culture and there's a conservatism away from doing something new when it's easier to just reuse what worked already. It's time for radical change here... in every non-Olympic year one of the programs(alternate between SP or FS... don't let them choose which one) should be done to music no one else has ever done before on the senior circuit... and perhaps allow skaters to put "dibs" on one of their programs for the Olympics(though maybe restrict it to the top 12 at the previous worlds)

These issues are what will cause people to lose interest eventually even in countries where there are winners and when it's widely promoted.

The problem with IJS is that the art of persuasion is lost. The IJS makes it too easy to kind of entrap the judge... but the skater is kind of entrapped to skate a certain way for the judge. I just think it would be better if skating and judging was more loose and more judges were added while cracking down on cheaters. Countries with skaters in a position to win a medal after the short program should be switched out of the judging panel.

I agree and disagree with the idea that "stars" are needed for figure skating's popularity. Those that say this usually yearn for Yuna, Mao, Kostner but they had their down times... often at the same time which was very bad. I think it's more important to have constantly interesting and competitive events than it is to have any individual or even group of "stars". But more needs to be done to cultivate performance and star quality. Cultivation in figure skating has become too myopically focused on jumps. I think for juniors and below the jumps should be split off of the short program and new requirements like spirals and other choreographic moves should be added to help cultivate artistic flexibility. If you don't condition and cultivate skaters to perform without jumps they won't have a performance frame of reference for when they are skating with jumps. And this reference is important or else the jumps become a performance crutch. Star quality is immeasurable, but the best approximation is being able to perform well without jumps. So start measuring that for juniors and novices.

Figure skating could have used a good promoter leading it. The ISU has not been headed by a figure skater since 1980... to put it in perspective, MTV launched in 1981.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I've been debating a lot with myself whether I should join this discussion or not. I've seen good points made, but also some rather offensive posts deriding all Figure Skaters from smaller Federations as 'barely standing on skates'. I'm not very 'patriotic' in the sense that I could only root for skaters from my own country, so that's not it. Figure Skating has hardly ever been popular in my own country, although the Skating Federation is finally giving the sport some support, even setting up a National Team which has been unheard of until now. However, I do have an example of how things can go terribly wrong when 1 country is just too dominant a presence, and that's long track speed skating. Very popular in my country, and at the Sochi Olympics the Dutch team got themselves a record of medals in this sport, including some podium sweeps. 23 out of 36 medals available went to my country alone. For good order: if there had been no limitations on the number of athletes per country, you could just send the best of the best, this number probably would have been even higher. Afterwards there was an awful lot of criticism that one country was so dominating in what to all purposes is pretty much a niche sport world wide. Imagine what would have happened if we had sent out all our top athletes, reducing the interest of the rest of the world even more.

Long track Speed skating is a sport with a World Cup (Seniors and Juniors) in which more athletes from a country can take part, All round competions and single distance competitions, Europeans and Worlds for both as well as being an Olympic sport. All those things some posters would like to see. However, except for in The Netherlands viewership is pretty low. Short track speed skating is much more popular as success is shared among many more countries (and it's more spectacular to watch, but that's another issue). Furthermore, certain distances in Long Track are pretty boring.

If what some of you seem to want, a system with no limits on the number of athletes as long as they're good, and no entries from countries 'who can barely stand on skates' (not my words, because I don't agree since there's the minimum TES in place), turning the discipline really into a niche sport is garanteed. Even with a hard core fan base from all over the world who only want to see the best of the best, and don't care much about where the skaters come from.

It can of course be an advantage living in a country where FS is not popular: I can watch all FS via the ISU YouTube channel this year. Nothing has been blocked so far. I can watch the best of the best without the worry of my national skaters failing or succeeding. However, I am more than pleased the National Skating Federation is finally doing something to support Figure Skating. I wouldn't wish this development to stop because it would become even more difficult for a skater to be able to participate because only the best of the best could ever take part in the bigger events because there would be no limits on the number of athletes in these events as long as they are good. Much as I dislike it that I probably won't be seeing Liza, Sophia, Evgenia or even Alina at Europeans or Worlds I am firmly in favour of limiting the numbers per country to a certain maximum. I don't think that's detrimental to the popularity of the sport.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
^ I stand by my position. You are offended by belittling Papadokia, I am offended when an athlete works hard, but is held back by bureaucrats executing some ancient and unfair rules.
Anyway, this appears to be a side topic to figure skating’s decline, but maybe it’s not. I say again: no sponsor will look at athletes who are at their federation’s complete dependency and are not guaranteed participation in major events because of senseless rules. No matter how hard they work and level they represent.

And a quick reminder: international competitive sport is not supposed to be an afternoon recreational activity with your grandma when everybody gets their turn on equal chances.

BTW: you are Dutch. Speed skating is an international Olympic sport. They have their own World Cup series, which is the most prestigious event between Olympics. This is how speed skaters earn their reputation and make history. Without limits on number of Dutch skaters. Can you list all dominant countries that carry the sport? How many of them? Is the Dutch domination detrimental to weaker countries? Does it stop their development?
Do you think that model can be repeated for figure skating? If no, why?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I say again: no sponsor will look at athletes who are at their federation’s complete dependency and are not guaranteed participation in major events because of senseless rules. No matter how hard they work and level they represent.

If that were true, then no skater would ever have received any kind of corporate sponsorship.

That is not the case.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I've been debating a lot with myself whether I should join this discussion or not. I've seen good points made, but also some rather offensive posts deriding all Figure Skaters from smaller Federations as 'barely standing on skates'. I'm not very 'patriotic' in the sense that I could only root for skaters from my own country, so that's not it. Figure Skating has hardly ever been popular in my own country, although the Skating Federation is finally giving the sport some support, even setting up a National Team which has been unheard of until now. However, I do have an example of how things can go terribly wrong when 1 country is just too dominant a presence, and that's long track speed skating. Very popular in my country, and at the Sochi Olympics the Dutch team got themselves a record of medals in this sport, including some podium sweeps. 23 out of 36 medals available went to my country alone. For good order: if there had been no limitations on the number of athletes per country, you could just send the best of the best, this number probably would have been even higher. Afterwards there was an awful lot of criticism that one country was so dominating in what to all purposes is pretty much a niche sport world wide. Imagine what would have happened if we had sent out all our top athletes, reducing the interest of the rest of the world even more.

Long track Speed skating is a sport with a World Cup (Seniors and Juniors) in which more athletes from a country can take part, All round competions and single distance competitions, Europeans and Worlds for both as well as being an Olympic sport. All those things some posters would like to see. However, except for in The Netherlands viewership is pretty low. Short track speed skating is much more popular as success is shared among many more countries (and it's more spectacular to watch, but that's another issue). Furthermore, certain distances in Long Track are pretty boring.

If what some of you seem to want, a system with no limits on the number of athletes as long as they're good, and no entries from countries 'who can barely stand on skates' (not my words, because I don't agree since there's the minimum TES in place), turning the discipline really into a niche sport is garanteed. Even with a hard core fan base from all over the world who only want to see the best of the best, and don't care much about where the skaters come from.

It can of course be an advantage living in a country where FS is not popular: I can watch all FS via the ISU YouTube channel this year. Nothing has been blocked so far. I can watch the best of the best without the worry of my national skaters failing or succeeding. However, I am more than pleased the National Skating Federation is finally doing something to support Figure Skating. I wouldn't wish this development to stop because it would become even more difficult for a skater to be able to participate because only the best of the best could ever take part in the bigger events because there would be no limits on the number of athletes in these events as long as they are good. Much as I dislike it that I probably won't be seeing Liza, Sophia, Evgenia or even Alina at Europeans or Worlds I am firmly in favour of limiting the numbers per country to a certain maximum. I don't think that's detrimental to the popularity of the sport.

You make some great points. I was seriously thinking the other day how much more exciting short track was. Anything can happen in short track, and I do mean anything, and it’s well, short. Long track lasts forever and if there are Dutch skaters there they will probably win. But I’d consider both to be niche sports in the US.
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
1) It is true that Olympic sports need to be 'inclusive' as in more countries participate in it. This was the reason given why Squash failed the bid to be included as Olympic sport. The official reason : Too few countries dominate the sport.

2) On sponsorship, it is not accurate assessment.
a) This is where government/state funding comes in. Internationally, that Sports World Body & IOC also play a role to develop the sport.

b) 2nd tier athletes can get obtain sponsorship, just that the sponsors are lesser known brands. Instead of sponsorship from say F&N or P&G, they are sponsored by Daikin(air conditioner maker).
These Tier 2 athletes have slim chance of going for Olympics or Worlds but they can participate in Super Series & Challenger(equivalent to skating senior B) tournaments.

Example : My country was virtually unknown in track cycling 15 or so years ago. Back then, Japan was the top Asia country in track cycling, China up coming.
The athlete who's the pioneer, he had no money to get a proper coach.
He didnt give up, he applied for a scholarship program to train with a well known coach in Europe. Sponsored by the World Cycling Association & IOC. He got the scholarship & went there few months.
He qualified for 2004 OG & went to final 6. He was Asia Champion, spearheaded the growth of the sport by finding a caliber coach. The whole team then went to train under that coach.
By the time the sport rose & put the country on the map, he had too many injuries & retired in his mid 30s

But his juniors benefitted. At 2016 Olympics, we had an OG bronze medalist in track cycling. Just 15 short years.
 

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Australia
^ I stand by my position. You are offended by belittling Papadokia, I am offended when an athlete works hard, but is held back by bureaucrats executing some ancient and unfair rules.
Anyway, this appears to be a side topic to figure skating’s decline, but maybe it’s not. I say again: no sponsor will look at athletes who are at their federation’s complete dependency and are not guaranteed participation in major events because of senseless rules. No matter how hard they work and level they represent.

And a quick reminder: international competitive sport is not supposed to be an afternoon recreational activity with your grandma when everybody gets their turn on equal chances.

It is offensive. If it's so easy to get into the World's now because every smaller country can get in then why don't you get off your butt and do it?

Your flag indicates you're from Poland, a country lacking in "quality" skaters, so put your money where your mouth is and get to World's.

We'll be waiting here to see just how far you get.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Your flag indicates you're from Poland, a country lacking in "quality" skaters, so put your money where your mouth is and get to World's.

Yes, in figure skating Poland is definitely a Popodokia. Actually, a bit less so, thanks to the Kaliszek family, as they are trying to build some kind of figure skating center in the city of Toruń. Natalia Kaliszek is their daughter. They also helped Ekaterina Kurakova a lot in her assimilation in Poland.

Coming back to your argument - you want to see skaters from Popodokias, I want to see the best skaters. I don't think there is contradiction between the two. I think there is a model where you get both. The World Cup circuit model is probably the one. It hasn't been tried with figure skating yet, but it has been used with a big mangnitude of other sports and it appears to be working well. The GP model is a step towards it, but it needs to be expanded and elevated.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
I’ve been having a further look at what GPs would look like if you went to a 18/24 skater setup and I have to say the results look rather good from a ‘selling the sport’ sort of perspective.

In summary the idea was 18/24 skaters at each event, with 2 weeks spent in each of North America, Europe and Asia, and with a week’s gap in between each. Then each skater would perform at one event in each continent, hence performing at 3 events rather than the current 2. Also you would expand the current number of skaters at the GPF to either 10 or 12 i.e. 2 warm up groups worth.

If you did have the skaters performing at 3 events what you would get is 3 of the big 6 Russian contenders i.e. Alina Zagitova, Evgenia Medvedeva, Alexandra Trusova, Alena Kostornaia, Anna Shcherbakova and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva performing at each event. Also either Bradie Tennell or Mariah Bell (I would imagine you would keep the biggest contenders from a country apart, unless mathematics dictates otherwise, bit like in Champions League football), 1 or 2 of Satoko Miyahara, Rika Kihira and Kaori Sakamoto, and 1 of Young You or Eunsoo Lim.

Already you can see that you would have a very strong field at each event, plus with many back up skaters as well e.g. if you went to just an 18 skater setup, you would have something like 4 Russians, 3 Japanese, 2 Americans and 2 Koreans at each GP, plus 7 other skaters from other federations, while if you went to a 24 skater set up there would be even more scope for skaters from all federations, big and small.

Hence if you were to follow this setup you would be virtually guaranteed a fantastic competition every week, certainly at least as strong as the strongest GP you get now, plus you’d have a fabulous GP Final as well if you went to the top 10 or 12 finishers in that as well.

I would hope that from a selling the sport perspective this would really help as this would be as good as it gets, unless you had real major surgery and had something like a GP series where everybody always competed, or a World Champs where everything was purely ranking based like in tennis or golf.

I also agree with those people that say you’ve got to prevent one country dominating to the exclusion of others, though it may be there are special circumstances in the Dutch domination of long track speed skating. In this sport you essentially need a huge indoor shed – each lap is 400m long so you need an Olympic sized venue to be able to perform the sport, and I can’t see many countries forking the money out to build such stadiums, whereas at least for a more normal skating rink you can have things like ice hockey, short track, recreational skating, plus things like concerts if the seats at one end can be removed and a stage installed, whereas this may be much less possible for a long track venue.

However you do need a means for skaters from smaller countries to make progress in the sport a la Yuna Kim and Javier Fernandez, hence why I was much more circumspect about adding more competitors to the World Champs i.e. 2 or 3 more, say the reigning World Champ and the newly crowned European and 4 Continents champions. However everything else would remain the same. Hopefully you’d get an even better competition, but with the scope for skaters from smaller countries to still make their mark.

I also wonder if there’s anything that makes people cringe when they watch figure skating. On these pages we often get lots of discussions on this, that or the other, but I wonder if there’s anything that really gets their goat. These might be the sort of things that really need tackling most – I always think in figure skating there’s a whole series of little things that added together might make a big difference, but there’s not that much by itself that is desperately broken.

Similarly on the Survey front, I wonder if we should have a kind of ‘Ask a Friend’ day i.e. why don’t they watch figure skating any more if they used to watch it in the boom times, or they only watch it at the Olympics. Of course they may reply they just don’t know it’s on anymore, which would really be down to the TV companies, but then again if you could get things moving again TV ratings wise (see my ideas for the GP series - hopefully) then they may publicise it more.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
^ I stand by my position. You are offended by belittling Papadokia, I am offended when an athlete works hard, but is held back by bureaucrats executing some ancient and unfair rules.
Anyway, this appears to be a side topic to figure skating’s decline, but maybe it’s not. I say again: no sponsor will look at athletes who are at their federation’s complete dependency and are not guaranteed participation in major events because of senseless rules. No matter how hard they work and level they represent.

And a quick reminder: international competitive sport is not supposed to be an afternoon recreational activity with your grandma when everybody gets their turn on equal chances.

BTW: you are Dutch. Speed skating is an international Olympic sport. They have their own World Cup series, which is the most prestigious event between Olympics. This is how speed skaters earn their reputation and make history. Without limits on number of Dutch skaters. Can you list all dominant countries that carry the sport? How many of them? Is the Dutch domination detrimental to weaker countries? Does it stop their development?
Do you think that model can be repeated for figure skating? If no, why?

I don't think it can. Questions were asked after Sochi if it even could remain an Olympic sport, but in the end nothing came of it. It remained Olympic, and they thought of new events (Mass Start, Team pursuit) to popularise the sport. Furthermore, thankfully there were other countries who were succesfull in these 'new' events. Although they did limit the maximum number of skaters per country in some events for the next Olympics. for the skaters however, the Olympics are the thing, just like in Figure Skating.
There are limits on the number of Dutch skaters in any World Cup event, except like in the GP the total number can be a lot higher in the World Cup. The system is also different, a system I don't think is easily to transfer to Figure Skating as it's based on an overall competition - you can win the World Cup by achieving a certain number of points in a number of competitions. I don't watch, and don't know it well enough to be more precise. There definitely are limits on the number of skaters at European and World championships whether it's the single distance, Sprint or All round championships.

The US, Norwegians (in the past there was a rather serious rivalry with the Norwegian skaters, especially on the longer distances), (Eastern) Germany with the women, Canadians, Koreans and Japanese on the Short distances, all have had and still have their successes but it is hardly a popular sport except for in The Netherlands and Korea (for the short distances). I don't think the Dutch dominance is detrimental to the Sport as such, but it does lead to problems with for example funding and sponsor ships (except for in The Netherlands itself where speed skating is sponsored rather heavily). And a sport needs popularity to get more funding for the participants.

I don't think I've ever stated that international competitive sport is an afternoon recreational activity. Our Dutch Figure Skaters work hard to get their minimum TES so they can enter Europeans and Worlds. Only one entree though per discipline (and some disciplines not at all), as indeed other countries do better and so get 2 or 3 spots. I'm fine with that, and will remain so. I'm also fine with the Grand Prix as it is. but I do realise for Figure skating to become more popular, a country needs successes on the international stages. Most fans aren't just wanting to see the best of the best, they want to see medals - and usually for their own country's representative. Having said all that, I do also enjoy Russian Nationals, US Nationals, and Canadian Nationals (and would probably enjoy Japanese Nationals too if it was available online).
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I love how people jump to conclusions with no data here, based just on their personal beliefs.

For example, I could claim that what ruins the sport is lack of objectivity, and PCs should be dropped entirely, because it makes no sense for a casual viewer. And meanwhile, the casual viewer can see the difference between a double and a triple, and between a small jump and a big jump.
 

rugbyfan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
I have dithered a lot about answering this, and like many have mentioned, we need data. My own feeling was I was an avid, but ignorant watcher throughout most of the 90s. I could always tell an axel, but was not great on distinguishing most of the other jumps from each other. I certainly couldn't tell a lutz from a flip. I therefore watched for the program. I liked big jumps when they worked with the choreography, but when they fell, I felt it ruined it. I thought the best skaters were those who performed good jumps (even if I couldn't always say what jump!) in keeping with the choreography and music. I always loved ice dance, though found some programmes too over the top (I never got into BEstemaniova and Bukin) but I was much more knowledgeable about the dance than I was about the singles and pairs skating. I was in Canada at the time, however, and was drawn into figure skating beyond ice dance by the Calgary Olympics and probably by the fact that Canadians did well in all the disciplines and medalled in 3. So for me, artistry, nationalism and a sense of excitement at jumps that worked worked for me, but I also liked having some idea of what a score was out of. My brain works that way. Just like I like to know if an exam is out of 100 points or 120 or whatever. The switch to IJS therefore lost me. I had never known what was good technically really in singles skating, but I could sort of tell from the commentator on whom I depended a lot, and I could tell what I thought worked artistically so I felt I knew how to deal with 6.0. I began to fade away after what I felt was really poor judging at NAgano and watched relatively little after that except for a few specific people - Yagudin, Slutskaya, Kwan, Berezhnaya Sikharulidze, Sale Pelletier, Bourne and Kraatz and a few others. After 2002 I stopped altogether until Virtue and Moir drew me in again and fell back in love with ice dance. After that watching Mao made me begin to appreciate singles and I slowly became a much more knowledgeable skating fan able properly to discuss jumps for example, but I have never hit the level of recording everything the way I did in the early years of my 6.0 ignorance. I did find the lack of longevity hard even now with more knowledge of skills it takes me a while to warm to people. Once I have got to know and treasure a few programmes I am not particularly nationalistic and can support anyone, but that tends to require some degree of longevity. My all-time favourites come from all across the globe, but to draw me in initially nationalism or at least picking a skater to support just like one would a football team or a hockey team always played a role and for that I need to have seen them a little longer and have some reason beyond sheer skill to support them. In 1996 I watched Kwan live and cheered like mad for Chen, by the time she retired Kwan was on my all time favourite list. I have made this about me because I think many of the things that drew me in and stopped drawing me in are probably big factors for many of the other casual fans. They of course draw on all sorts of other factors like the cost of training which means that people from fewer countries are likely to reach elite levels and therefore there is less of that initial nationalist pull (and we may claim not to be nationalist in our choice of whom we support, but how many people here have favourites from their own country or at least countries they know well - you just need to look at the national skating boards to see nationalist bents even if they are not all-consuming). I think I could add a lot more, but this is my personal story of loss of interest which might have some points to contribute since I have no data beyond the personal. I can say that I don't think I would be following skating now without Virtue and Moir re-igniting my imagination (so on some level will always love them since they brought me back to figure skating and I now spend far too much time following skating discussion boards).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I love how people jump to conclusions with no data here, based just on their personal beliefs.

True.

If we, or the ISU, wanted to come up with a plan to attract more casual skating fans or non-fans to become fans, it would take a lot more research about what potential fans might be interested in, where to focus and marketing efforts, and what populations would not be worth trying to attract.

For example, I could claim that what ruins the sport is lack of objectivity, and PCs should be dropped entirely, because it makes no sense for a casual viewer. And meanwhile, the casual viewer can see the difference between a double and a triple, and between a small jump and a big jump.

Yes, but if we go entirely by what a casual viewer with no technical knowledge can see, then the technical basis of the sport would become largely irrelevant.

There are certainly aspects of what is generally considered to be good skating that casual fans can easily learn to see, but only if they're educated to look for it.

E.g., it would help if commentators often pointed out to viewers that skating on one foot at a time, traveling in both directions, and turning in both directions are all important. These aren't things that are difficult to see, but a new viewer wouldn't know they're important unless told.

Same with the fact that jumps must be landed on one foot to get full credit.

Speed across the ice is very easy for spectators to see when they're sitting right there in the arena -- especially if someone points out that it's important, but unfortunately for video viewers it's much harder to appreciate in that context. So it would help if commentators would make a habit of commenting about skaters' speed more often.

And maybe someday there will be some kind of objective speed measurement that will be included in the scores, which would be easily understood by newbies once it's explained.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
For example, I could claim that what ruins the sport is lack of objectivity, and PCs should be dropped entirely, because it makes no sense for a casual viewer. And meanwhile, the casual viewer can see the difference between a double and a triple, and between a small jump and a big jump.

I'm not sure how halfpipe, big air or slope style stand against figure skating right now, but whatever the quantitative comparison, they appear to be on the rise. Maybe it's a cultural shift, but anyway, the point is that they are strictly judged. A dude goes down, does tricks and then judges give them points. I have no idea how it works, but when I watch it it appears to be so. With my ignorant eyes they are even more unclear and questionable for a casual viewer than figure skating. So I don't know, lack of measurable objectivity doesn't appear to me as a problem.

I still stand by my opinion that figure skating fits the current culture, is potentially appealing, but the problem is in the competition model. Too much power for feds and too little power for skaters themselves. The skaters should earn their reputations themselves and sell it to us and to the sponsors. The feds might help beginning skaters, but once skaters establish their positions they should fully control their careers.
I might be wrong, but that's what I feel.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I was seriously thinking the other day how much more exciting short track was. Anything can happen in short track, and I do mean anything, and it’s well, short.

Bingo! This is exactly why, in figure skating, the short program provides a better spectator sport than the long. :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The GP model is a step towards it (the World Cup model), but it needs to be expanded and elevated.

Actually, I think the ISU is on board with this idea. From the inception of the Grand Prix this is what they had in mind as a goal to work toward. And they have made a lot of progress form the days where the three separate events, Skate Canada, Skate America and NHK were independent local shows.

Now they also have the Challenge Series which the ISU seems to be gradually trying to upgrade into a competitive circuit rather than just some random stand-alone minor competitions. Even now skaters get points toward their season standings by winning some "B" events.

I could imagine some time in the far future a situation where the Grand Prix Final would surpass Worlds in prestige, popularity and money. This would be having our cake and eating it, too. Worlds might become like the world championships in an Olympic year -- the best skaters stay home and the spotlight turns to the rising stars, from federations both big and small.

(I don't know whether or not this development would really increase the profile of figure skating for the general public, though.)
 
Last edited:

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Bingo! This is exactly why, in figure skating, the short program provides a better spectator sport than the long. :yes:

Not what I meant. In short track most literally anything can happen. You can be #6 guy, everyone else falls down, you cross finish line first, you win Olympic gold medal, boom! I have seen it happen, more than one time.

It would be the equivalent of, say, Conrad Orzel (I like Conrad, do not get me wrong) beating Yuzu. Chances are 0%. Or my babies Hawayek and Baker beating P&C and all other teams above them winning OGM. (I wish for it to be possible, but it isn’t.).
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Bingo! This is exactly why, in figure skating, the short program provides a better spectator sport than the long. :yes:

It depends. Short program is good when you have to check quickly through the bottom ten and you don’t have a fast forward button. But when you watch Yuzuru, P/C, the top Russians, etc, then even the long program is not long enough.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Yes, but if we go entirely by what a casual viewer with no technical knowledge can see, then the technical basis of the sport would become largely irrelevant.

There are certainly aspects of what is generally considered to be good skating that casual fans can easily learn to see, but only if they're educated to look for it.

E.g., it would help if commentators often pointed out to viewers that skating on one foot at a time, traveling in both directions, and turning in both directions are all important. These aren't things that are difficult to see, but a new viewer wouldn't know they're important unless told.

Same with the fact that jumps must be landed on one foot to get full credit.

Speed across the ice is very easy for spectators to see when they're sitting right there in the arena -- especially if someone points out that it's important, but unfortunately for video viewers it's much harder to appreciate in that context. So it would help if commentators would make a habit of commenting about skaters' speed more often.

And maybe someday there will be some kind of objective speed measurement that will be included in the scores, which would be easily understood by newbies once it's explained.

However it's the casual fans you want to attract back to the sport - a rising tide raises all boats and all that.

Funnily enough I've always thought that at an appropriate time I would raise an idea I've had that would only half-jokingly be "The One Rule Change to Change Them All", and that is "The rules should be changed so that whoever Simon Reed, the veteran Eurosport commentator, thinks is the best, wins".

Of course there's all the secret squirrel things in skating just like the ones you've pointed out, and viewers need to know these/commentators need educating, but you can also bet 90% of the watching viewers agree with him, and really he's just a casual fan, not very conversant with the rules despite all the years commentating.

Discuss.
 
Top