Was Boyang Jin the first skater to land quad lutz?

Let's be honest. Brandon Mroz heavily prerotated his quad lutz - it was not a lutz and definitely not a quad. So who was actually first then - Boyang?
Mroz - https://youtu.be/jzOKnWyEmlo

The history books will say Mroz so that’s good enough for me.

Why is this even a thing?!? Books say Mroz, it's Mroz.

Ic3Rabbit said:

Why is this even a thing?!? Books say Mroz, it's Mroz.

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Hmmm.... Because he prerotated a lot...

NadezhdaNadya said:

Hmmm.... Because he prerotated a lot...

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And unless you're writing the by laws and confirming who is in the history books for it, it doesn't matter.:confused2:

To me, it didn't look all that much pre-rotated in the video. Michael Weiss also did a few valiant attempts in competition, which weren't bad but were not ratified because of slight two-fooed landings. He just couldn't swing that free leg through witout brushing the ice.

NadezhdaNadya said:

Hmmm.... Because he prerotated a lot...

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Miki Ando quad sal also actually URed but she still wil be the first ladies to land quad sal, not Trusova. Lol

Yep in the record books the first quad lutz in competition is Brandon. You have your point of course. However it is similar to Katarina is the 1988 OGM even ifsome thought it shold be Manley based on many different scoring scenarios;1994 OGM went to Baiul no matter what Kerrigan supporters say; 1994 OGM went to G and G over Artura and Natalia; 2002 OGM went to Sarah Hughes despite many other beliefsdifferentresults in the sp would create different results Despite quadless Evan won gold in Vancouver over Plushy and you cry outrage but it won't change that fact. /And in 2014 despite cries of scandal Adelina won gold over Yuna. We can have good reasons to disagree but it won't change much.

I'm not worried about the prerotation in as much as his landing is a definite < ur.

NadezhdaNadya said:

Let's be honest. Brandon Mroz heavily prerotated his quad lutz - it was not a lutz and definitely not a quad. So who was actually first then - Boyang?
Mroz - https://youtu.be/jzOKnWyEmlo

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way before Boyjang didn’t the great K. Browning land a quad lutz in comp? Or was it like a quad toe or easier jump. I know he had the first ratified quad back in the 9Os or even earlier? Don’t feel like researching but pretty sure he had the first ratified quad in international comp. way back.

skateluvr said:

way before Boyjang didn’t the great K. Browning land a quad lutz in comp? Or was it like a quad toe or easier jump. I know he had the first ratified quad back in the 9Os or even earlier? Don’t feel like researching but pretty sure he had the first ratified quad in international comp. way back.

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Browning landed the first ratified quad. It was a toe.
Goebel landed the first ratified quad sal.
Mroz landed the first ratified quad lutz.
Uno landed the first ratified quad flip.
Hanyu landed the first ratified quad loop.


No one has landed a ratified quad axel.

If it's ratified, it is ratified. Only one person gets to be first. He/she may not be held to the same standards as later generations. You are held to the standard of the day in which you compete, and it takes guts galore to be first.

Ice Dance said:

Browning landed the first ratified quad. It was a toe.
Goebel landed the first ratified quad sal.
Mroz landed the first ratified quad lutz.
Uno landed the first ratified quad flip.
Hanyu landed the first ratified quad loop.


No one has landed a ratified quad axel.

If it's ratified, it is ratified. Only one person gets to be first. He/she may not be held to the same standards as later generations. You are held to the standard of the day in which you compete, and it takes guts galore to be first.

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:agree:

Ice Dance said:

Browning landed the first ratified quad. It was a toe.
Goebel landed the first ratified quad sal.
Mroz landed the first ratified quad lutz.
Uno landed the first ratified quad flip.
Hanyu landed the first ratified quad loop.


No one has landed a ratified quad axel.

If it's ratified, it is ratified. Only one person gets to be first. He/she may not be held to the same standards as later generations. You are held to the standard of the day in which you compete, and it takes guts galore to be first.

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And Uno's flip was not a flip. I dislike so much bad technique.

Ice Dance said:

Browning landed the first ratified quad. It was a toe.
Goebel landed the first ratified quad sal.
Mroz landed the first ratified quad lutz.
Uno landed the first ratified quad flip.
Hanyu landed the first ratified quad loop.


No one has landed a ratified quad axel.

If it's ratified, it is ratified. Only one person gets to be first. He/she may not be held to the same standards as later generations. You are held to the standard of the day in which you compete, and it takes guts galore to be first.

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Agree.

Gretchen... stop trying to make pre-rotation happen! It’s not going to happen!

Jin’s quad lutz is awesome but Mroz has the first quad lutz. Trying to diminish it is hugely disrespectful. Most jump “firsts” don’t have perfect technique/takeoff/landings, and standards change over time.

Even Jin has a slight pre-rotation on his lutz, and he doesn't land on the ice entirely backwards (e.g. the way Gold landed some of her lutzes)... for all we know, 10 years from now, it could be considered UR.

I just wanna bring in to this discussion the aspect of quantity which is far more difficult to trace than those singular first ones (surprisingly so). A while back I did a bit of data collection and counting after being inspired by an article on Brian Joubert getting a recognition from his federation for having done 100 quads in international competitions (someone in France had obviously been counting?!). This happened in the fall of 2013.

I checked some skaters who have been doing quads for a long time, Chan, Menshov, Fernandez, Hanyu, Plushenko, Reynolds and Voronov, as well as the younger ones, Chen Jin, Kolyada, Uno and Zhou. Documenting all the jumps from protocols was not possible for Joubert, Menshov and Plushenko, but each did get over or at least very close to the 100 mark.

The 1990s guys were easier to document and Fernandez was the first to cross the 150 mark in the spring of 2018. Uno and Hanyu have done it since, Chen is approaching. Chan did not quite get over 100 quads. Most planned vs. executed number of jumps, at 80-90%, only Kolyada goes below 80% here. The UR and << rates are lowest with Javi (3 in more than 160 jumps), Hanyu has 15, Chen 9, Uno 29, Zhou 47 (out of 88!), other somewhere in between.

Qualitatively, Hanyu and Fernández are on top with about 65% positive GOE on their jumps, Chen follows closely with 62%. Kolyada and Voronov are at almost 60%, Uno has 53%, Jin 51%. Samarin is below 50%, Zhou being the lowest of the current crop with 38% positive GOE. Kevin Reynolds jumped more than 150 quads, but with the lowest success rates of all - 29% positive GOE and staggering 71 jumps UR or downgraded (almost half of all, but then think of Zhou also).

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eppen said:

A while back I did a bit of data collection and counting after being inspired by an article on Brian Joubert getting a recognition from his federation for having done 100 quads in international competitions...

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:eeking:

I wonder what Alexandra Trusova is on pace for. She won't rest until she hits 200. :yes:

The UR and << rates are lowest with Javi (3 in more than 160 jumps).

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:eeking:

Wasn't Elvis Stojko the skater who first did a quad-combination - first the quad toe-double toe and then also the quad toe-triple toe? And I think it was Pluschenko who did the first Quad toe-triple toe-triple loop, right? And Kevin van der Perren the first Quad toe-triple toe-triple toe?

Mathman said:

I wonder what Alexandra Trusova is on pace for. She won't rest until she hits 200. :yes:

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Well, so far the guys with lots of jumps are either those who did just one or two types of quads, meaning that they had to have a long career to get over a 100 or 150 (like Joubert, Javi and Hanyu). But the younger skaters with multiple types of jumps and 6-8 quads per competition have gathered large numbers quite quickly. Shoma is the case in point - until this season he has competed a lot internationally compared to most of his rivals, in 2016-7 11, 2017-8 and last season 9 times. The more common number for a top male skater is 5-6 (GP series, maybe one Challenger, Euros/4CC, Worlds). Shoma has had 6 jumps/competition pretty regularly, so in those years he jumped 50-53 quads getting to high numbers very quickly. (But I just wonder if that has been a healthy approach considering his current problems?!)

So, Trusova can only do quads in the FS and if she does 3-4 of them/competition, she will get to maybe 21-27 for this season (assuming she gets EC and WC assignments). To get to 200, assuming that the quad ban in ladies SP might not get lifted and assuming a similar number of international competitions, she would need a roughly 10 year career with this same jumping consistency. Which seems unlikely to me, but remains to be seen.

As for Javi's 3 UR calls, the last one at the Europeans at Minsk this year could be one of those phantom calls by the TP (SP 4S). Javi himself was adamant that it was good and even complained in the press conference (and the only other time he has ever expressed displeasure with his scores was in Shanghai when his immaculate SP did not earn a SB). In the free he produced an immaculate 4S right in front of the judges and the look on his face was like "deduct from that if you dare" (you can't see it in the video, but I was sitting just right of the judges and I swear he did that). (I still remember how he was in the practices between the SP and FS, this aura of indignation floating about him, never before anything like that...)

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